The Official 'Classic Album' Discussion Thread

[SirBiatch]

On the topic of Nas...

I first heard Illmatic in 2003. My boy passed me the CD. He was like: 'You haven't heard Nas's first album? It's good. Very street". That's it. No hyperbole, nothing.

On the first listen, tracks like "World is Yours", "Halftime" and "One Time 4 Your Mind" stuck out to me (I had already heard NY State of Mind). I'm like: this is cool.

As I'm listening for the first time, I get to "It Aint Hard To Tell". That shyt blew my mind. One of the most mindblowing rap experiences I've ever had. The MJ sample hit me like a ton of bricks. It made me rethink the purpose of the entire album and go for a much deeper listen.

So over the course of a year, I'm listening to my favorite tracks all the time. Then, I started paying attention to the tracks I wasn't really feeling at first. And they're blowing my mind. Over 2 years, I realize that the entire album is incredible.

Then I went online to see what others thought of the album. It turns out that most people thought Illmatic was brilliant.

My point is: there was no pressure for me to crown Illmatic the greatest album ever or look at it as a classic. It's just a phenomenal album, period. It speaks for itself. And the biggest thing: time.

Time reveals all.

You can't tell me an album that just came out is classic, on the level of shyt that's lasted generations. I'm not stupid. You can sell that bullshyt to the young and uninformed, but for people who listen to music closely... it's the most ludicrous shyt ever.

Illmatic is a classic in every sense of the word.

I would argue that his other albums are not classic. After Illmatic, Lost Tapes is probably my favorite work. There are tracks on Lost Tapes I don't care for, never cared for and will never care for. I used to play the shyt out of Doo Rags. I thought it was amazing a decade ago. I think I was so blown away by the 3rd verse that I neglected the semi-dull beat. Now? meh. "U Gotta Love It" though? I slept on that shyt big time and for the last couple years it's I'll probably love that track forever.

I think we need to reach an agreement on a definition for classic.

Here's my proposed definition: an album of the highest quality (excellent lyricism, innovative production, strong cohesion, minimal filler) that has noticeable impact on the genre and the community and whose influence stands the test of time (10 years +)

I would rather be very strict about it, so for Nas, he only has 1 classic: Illmatic.

I can rock with this. The albums that we call classic in the truest sense of the word fit this category: Illmatic, Cuban Linx, Criminal Minded (even though I'm not a fan of the entire album, it still hits all those marks and random album cuts have shown up everywhere in hip hop songs since), Paid in Full, etc. They're the beacon of quality in the genre. They showcase the highest expression of the genre's spirit.

That's why Kanye's albums, no matter how much you like them, can never be hip hop classics. Because he doesn't make hip hop. He makes urban pop. His albums don't showcase the highest forms of the hip hop spirit. nikkas know. I'm not saying they're bad albums period (they kinda are), but if you said they were some of the best urban pop has ever put out, I wouldn't disagree with you.

There are a bunch of albums I think are "personal classics" but I wouldn't argue them as objective hip hop classics. Such as Live.Love.ASAP, Fantastic Volume 2, Connected, A Long Hot Summer, Departure and Supa Dupa Fly.

All those albums are fantastic in their own way, but are they on the level of Illmatic and other GOAT contenders? Obviously not. Live.Love.ASAP has filler. Some trash songs and mediocre lyricism throughout. But its production is some of the most innovative and beautiful I've ever heard in hip hop. Vocal delivery is fantastic. Its impact? Remains to be seen but it's already influenced the underground and may be trickling into the mainstream via RnB (e.g. Bryson Tiller). I dunno.

Fantastic Vol 2 is in the same category as Live.Love.ASAP. I would argue J Dilla's finest work over an entire album. And it still holds up. Did it have a noticeable impact? Yes and no. In the mainstream, not directly. But underground? For sure. Especially among backpackers. Casual fans don't know the album exists, but if you're a hip hop fan, you know about Fantastic Vol 2. Same thing with Live.Love.ASAP.

They're definitive albums for the underground and definitely for the artists involved, but classics? I'd say lower-tier classic. But then again, if we're saying 'lower tier classic', then it's arguably not a classic in the truest sense of the word. Therefore, it's just a memorable release.

 

[mobbinfms]

@mobbinfms oh and also, does cohesion not matter to you?

When you consider we're talking about albums, I think if it doesn't play out like an album SHOULD, it should receive criticism. I want a well-fleshed out and free flowing album not just a bunch of tracks. Like the positioning of tracks has to have meaning or at the very least not be out of place to the point of being a deterrent.

That just folds into quality and timelessness. Can you give me an example of a high quality album that still rings bells a decade later or longer that you wouldn't call a classic because it wasn't cohesive?

 

[Inspect Her Deck]

@SirBiatch

I was with you until the Kanye stuff, now you're overcomplicating things somewhat. But yes, time is the determining factor with quality for sure. At least 10 years I'd say, so it rules out a lot of albums right now, which run the risk of being called 'instant classics'. The word classic implies time anyway. Something that holds up.

But now we get onto something else. Liquid Swords for example. Survives the test of time but very little influence on the genre. It was a very personal album, a lightning in the bottle kinda experience, unlike Cuban Linx. Does that detract from its classic status, and it is instead a very dope album?

@mobbinfms fair point



you're sharp today...I like it.

 

[BlackMamba824]

First off, I think this is a great topic, in part because I believe that in today's climate people are far too quick to label an album, "trash or classic"...I believe that albums can be simply good/great, average, subpar, etc. without being of the two extremes. I'm ot sure that there will be a clear consensus on what defines a classic album since, as many have pointed out, we are trying to create objective criteria to give opinions on something that is at it's very essence, a subjective art.

Here’s my criteria..

1) Obvious high quality - A classic Hip Hop album should pretty much be an album that has general acclaim from fans and the Hip Hop community as a whole.

2) Impact on the genre - A classic Hip Hop album should have some level of impact on the genre. It should be genre-defining. Basically, if you could go into history and stop an album from being made and it doesn't cause too much change within the genre, it's not a classic.

3) Cohesion - Classics need cohesion. Every song should flow perfectly into the next. Nothing should feel like it shouldn't be there. There shouldn't be a bunch of filler tracks laying around.

4) Does it stand the test of time? - Self explanatory. Is it timeless? In 10 years after the album's release date, will people still be listening to it and talking about it highly? 20 years? And so on.

I think a classic should hit most if not all these marks. I might be forgetting some criteria I think is important though.

This is a great framework to consider the definition of "classic" for me although I don't necessarily agree with all points.
- high quality music for me is probably the most important aspect of defining a classic album, but not only that but I believe that at the very least most classic albums in my mind have at least one track that transcends the era, defines a certain point in time for hip hop, etc. I understand that this isn't always the case as less well-known artists may not have had the push of say a Nas, Biggie, Jay-Z and and might not have the same degree of recognition on a mainstream stage.
- On another note, I don't think albums need to be "perfect" in order to be considered classic either. Ready to Die has "Friend of Mine" which I hate, yet I wouldn't say it takes the classic stamp away from that album.

- similar opinions with regards to points 2 and 4. I think that some albums have also been deemed classics not necessarily strictly based on the quality of the music, but also for the simple fact that sales, success on the charts (singles), etc, but they are classics nonetheless. (e.g. Get Rich or Die Tryin', etc)

The one area that I think things get overstated is with the idea of cohesion. What makes an album cohesive "thematically cohesive vs. sonically cohesive"?

- For instance, Illmatic for me sounds like a collection of random songs, but I don't think that keeps it from being classic.
- Does having the same producer on the entire album provide sonic cohesion? Does making an entire album about a certain topic make it thematically cohesive?
- Do we overlook lower-quality tracks because they fit into the theme of an album?

In summary, I think there are classics that are labeled so because of the quality of the music, the amount of success that they had, or some combination of both.

In reference to Nas' discography more specifically, he has 3 classics in my opinion.
Illmatic, It Was Written, Stillmatic (for varying reasons)

 

[SirBiatch]

@SirBiatch

I was with you until the Kanye stuff, now you're overcomplicating things somewhat. But yes, time is the determining factor with quality for sure. At least 10 years I'd say, so it rules out a lot of albums right now, which run the risk of being called 'instant classics'. The word classic implies time anyway. Something that holds up.

But now we get onto something else. Liquid Swords for example. Survives the test of time but very little influence on the genre. It was a very personal album, a lightning in the bottle kinda experience, unlike Cuban Linx. Does that detract from its classic status, and it is instead a very dope album?

@mobbinfms fair point



you're sharp today...I like it.

Breh, classics to me are 15 years. Minimum.

Even as I heard Illmatic in 2003, and got heavy into it by 2005, that's just 11 years from 1994. and even then, I wasn't like: "yo this is classic and the best rap album ever!" I just thought: 'phenomenal album'.

Illmatic only became classic to me over the last 5 years.

Liquid Swords is a classic. It's executed at such a high level that there's no way it can't be classic. As I said, it captures the hip hop spirit at its highest level.

For all we know, Liquid Swords started all that horrendous atmospheric Jedi Mind Tricks style rap that the backpackers ran with in the late 90s/early 2000s. Influences can be hard to trace.

RZA or someone from Wu once said that Liquid Swords was meant for college kids, whereas Cuban Linx was meant for the streets. You can tell. LS is far more cerebral. It didn't do much on the streets but it may have impacted other artists on the low.

 

[BlackMamba824]

I think we need to reach an agreement on a definition for classic.

Here's my proposed definition: an album of the highest quality (excellent lyricism, innovative production, strong cohesion, minimal filler) that has noticeable impact on the genre and the community and whose influence stands the test of time (10 years +)

I would rather be very strict about it, so for Nas, he only has 1 classic: Illmatic.

I agree with you on most points, but my only thing is that the "impact" factor requires an artist to have a certain level of standing and notoriety in the hip hop community to be both recognized and deemed influential. This makes it more difficult for lesser known artists to create "classics".

Just curious, how many hip hop classics do you think exist? I'm sure I'm a little less strict with my ratings.

 

[Inspect Her Deck]

Breh, classics to me are 15 years. Minimum.

Even as I heard Illmatic in 2003, and got heavy into it by 2005, that's just 11 years. and even then, I wasn't like: "yo this is classic and the best rap album ever!" I just thought: 'phenomenal album'.

Illmatic only became classic to me over the last 5 years.

Liquid Swords is a classic. It's executed at such a high level that there's no way it can't be classic.

For all we know, Liquid Swords started all that horrendous atmospheric Jedi Mind Tricks style rap that the backpackers ran with in the late 90s/early 2000s. Influences can be hard to trace.

RZA or someone from Wu once said that Liquid Swords was meant for college kids, whereas Cuban Linx was meant for the streets. You can tell. LS is far more cerebral. It didn't do much on the streets but it may have impacted other artists on the low.

Eh I mean 15 years for you but I think 10 is more than reasonable. My point of the 10 years or whatever is so for the purposes of this discussion, we can look at albums up to 2005 (or early 2006).

Yeah influence is hard to trace. So elite quality is definitely a must, and it must stand the test of time. But I feel that there needs to be an extra factor and if it isn't influence/impact, what is it? Originality?

 

[Inspect Her Deck]

I agree with you on most points, but my only thing is that the "impact" factor requires an artist to have a certain level of standing and notoriety in the hip hop community to be both recognized and deemed influential. This makes it more difficult for lesser known artists to create "classics".

Just curious, how many hip hop classics do you think exist? I'm sure I'm a little less strict with my ratings.

Truth be told bro, I have no idea


But that's mainly the purpose of this thread. To come to some sort of agreement first over defining the term, and then deciding which albums are classic and which aren't.

 

[BlackMamba824]

Truth be told bro, I have no idea


But that's mainly the purpose of this thread. To come to some sort of agreement first over defining the term, and then deciding which albums are classic and which aren't.

No problem. It was a bit of a weird question.

 

[360dagod]

@Inspect Her Deck

Illmatic definitely....In my opinion

 

[SirBiatch]

Eh I mean 15 years for you but I think 10 is more than reasonable. My point of the 10 years or whatever is so for the purposes of this discussion, we can look at albums up to 2005 (or early 2006).

Yeah influence is hard to trace. So elite quality is definitely a must, and it must stand the test of time. But I feel that there needs to be an extra factor and if it isn't influence/impact, what is it? Originality?

I disagree. 15 really is the minimum when you think about it. I'd rather take 20, even. Here's why 15 is minimum:

Your typical artist will have a run of 5 years, if they're lucky. That's their period of 'best' output before average people start getting bored. Especially if your fanbase is tween and teen. By the time 5 years passes for them, they're on to other shyt.

Within the 5 years or shortly after your run, your clones will their 5 year run. Your shadow will still loom large for the most part. Think of Kanye. His run was basically 2004 - 2010. His clones (Drake, Kendrick and Cole) are having their runs now. You can't say College Dropout is classic because its influence is still there and it's relatively young. Illmatic is a full 10 years older than College Dropout and we know kids now who are rocking styles from that era. That's classic.

And we're barely out of College Dropout/Late Reg being 10 years and I'd argue the new school don't give that much of a fukk about it.

By 2019/2020, whoever is in the spot Drake occupies now will give you an idea of whether College Dropout is classic. Because that new dude will have a whole new set of fans, and they probably wont give a fukk about College Dropout. Mark my words. I'm willing to be wrong on this. If they give a fukk about College Dropout and still think it's amazing into the 2020s, then sure - we can give it to Ye.

(Sidenote: I wonder if labels/artists are gonna start forcing more of their work as "classics" especially now that it's become such a big deal. Are we gonna see the 15 year anniversary of College Dropout tour or some shyt like that? Forcing relevance. I don't remember a Criminal Minded Tour ever happening)

 

[360dagod]

let's say theoretically you aren't a fan of 'dusty' music (I hate that term but excuse it). So based on your thing, let's assume you can't listen to Paid in Full or Criminal Minded. Those that mean they aren't classics because you skip the albums or the majority of tracks on said albums? If you ask me, your definition is a little too personal if you know what I mean.

What are Nas' classics?

I can see it was wriiten getting more love than illmatic for this exact reasoning...

Just going off the top of my head, DMX might have been the only one who really got away with a somewhat "dusty"sound(1st album) and reached millions saleswise...

 

[360dagod]

I disagree. 15 really is the minimum when you think about it. I'd rather take 20, even. Here's why 15 is minimum:

Your typical artist will have a run of 5 years, if they're lucky. That's their period of 'best' output before average people start getting bored. Especially if your fanbase is tween and teen. By the time 5 years passes for them, they're on to other shyt.

Within the 5 years or shortly after your run, your clones will their 5 year run. Your shadow will still loom large for the most part. Think of Kanye. His run was basically 2004 - 2010. His clones (Drake, Kendrick and Cole) are having their runs now. You can't say College Dropout is classic because its influence is still there and it's relatively young. Illmatic is a full 10 years older than College Dropout and we know kids now who are rocking styles from that era. That's classic.

By 2019/2020, whoever is in the spot Drake occupies now will give you an idea of whether College Dropout is classic. Because that new dude will have a whole new set of fans, and they probably wont give a fukk about College Dropout. Mark my words. I'm willing to be wrong on this. If they give a fukk about College Dropout and still think it's amazing, then sure.

(Sidenote: I wonder if labels/artists are gonna start forcing more of their work as "classics" especially now that it's become such a big deal. Are we gonna see the 15 year anniversary of College Dropout tour or some shyt like that? Forcing relevance. I don't remember a Criminal Minded Tour ever happening)

With Kendrick Lamar, the buildup(classic talk) was there before the album was even released...And cats were agreeing like it was nothing

As hip hop grows older, it will be interesting tho with current generations having very lil attention spans...

Kanye will probably be able to do a college drop out tour successfully based off the fact that people in the 20-30 will be "old school"by that point...

The newer generations will be the ones to watch..

 

[SirBiatch]

Also, stans cannot determine what's classic. They're not into music like that. A music fan that's openminded and somewhat objective can tell you what's classic or not.

 

[Scoop]

To make life easier, why don't I post artist by artist and we can run through their discography and determine what a classic is....for the most part, we're gonna start with the main gunners, and then will proceed onto lesser knowns. This project will be long but eventually we'll arrive at results we're all happy with.

FIRST ARTIST

Nas

Illmatic and It Was Written.

He has other "really good" albums but those are his two classics.

It Was Written being classic is relatively new. So many of today's best artists quote that as one of the best albums though. Album's production became morel listenable with time. I'd say it became a classic within the past 5-7 years.