2016 HL WPOY Nomination Thread

[Brown_Pride]

Which comes first, jobs or the market that entices businesses to serve that market?
That is right you need to the market that drives the business to be created in the first place.
There are no jobs without a market that needs to be served.

you do realize that this is literally chicken and egg right, particularly when you're talking about well established markets...

 

[tru_m.a.c]

You can find economist who make that minimum wage argument. Noble laureates as well.


For some real stupidity look at thread about the British psychologist saying pedophilia should be classified as a sexual preference.

I been avoiding that like the plague...nah is it really that bad

fukk it, I'm going in!

 

[ExodusNirvana]

You seem to be literally intent on ignoring the economic reality that different jobs with different levels have different market set wages, due to supply and demand of those capable workers.
I"m going to copy and paste what I just wrote, because you literally ignored it.


You see the jobs I listed get paid more than minimum wage now, and they generally are nowhere close to the minimum wage in terms of hourly pay. Why is that? Because their pay isn't tied to an artificially mandated floor but to the supply of workers in that field capable of doing the job. This is why a minimum wage removal only will trouble those positions that are set at the minimum wage.

As for a person being paid appropriately, that simply is what ever a person agrees to.

Massivie unemployment for black youths is what minimum wage brought, you seem to ignore this. white unemployment and others has dropped, blacks are double the white rate, and why? Black teen unemployment is higher.
As for jobs, if you don't work, you don't eat. I'll never feel bad or sad about someoen who refuses to work going hungry.

As for businesses doing what they want, they were allowed to do this under the protection of regulation and the violation of common law. That is another story and conversation entirely though.

Without a minimum wage floor they will pay those positions even less than they are now. Your logic supposes that because of that, people will only choose jobs that the market chooses to pay a certain amount. Then the market will correct itself, a place for everyone and everyone its place.

What about the stuff between the beginning and the end of this scenario? The employers charging whatever they want? The people unable to pay bills, pay for goods, because businesses will now charge whatever they want in the chase of max profits and cutting costs (ex. labor) in order to achieve those goals??? Are there price restrictions on goods implemented in this scenario??

 

[theworldismine13]

chatty patty thread

maybe we should create a safe zone in HL where people dont have to endure the horror and suffering of being assaulted with a different point of view

 

[Brown_Pride]

You can find economist who make that minimum wage argument. Noble laureates as well.


For some real stupidity look at thread about the British psychologist saying pedophilia should be classified as a sexual preference.

It's definitely too early to be casting a vote for WOTY, never to early to get behind a solid horse though.

Lots of time left on the clock fellas, lots of time.

 

[Brown_Pride]

chatty patty thread

maybe we should create a safe zone in HL where people dont have to endure the horror and suffering of being assaulted with a different point of view

It's called the Bushes >

 

[JahFocus CS]

@David_TheMan don't make the case for yourself breh. It's only April.

 

[David_TheMan]

Without a minimum wage floor they will pay those positions even less than they are now. Your logic supposes that because of that, people will only choose jobs that the market chooses to pay a certain amount. Then the market will correct itself, a place for everyone and everyone its place.

What about the stuff between the beginning and the end of this scenario? The employers charging whatever they want? The people unable to pay bills, pay for goods, because businesses will now charge whatever they want in the chase of max profits and cutting costs (ex. labor) in order to achieve those goals??? Are there price restrictions on goods implemented in this scenario??

There is already a artificial floor that high paying jobs aren't rushing down to meet with their salaries, so reality shows us that your contention is false, also economic realities of what minimum wage and what it does show your contention false, as I've previously explained.

People don't just choose jobs, they have to be qualified for those jobs, thats why your average kid out of high school isn't just going to jump to a hospital and say I want to be a doctor, I want to be head of a department, I wan't to be fill in the blank (except low skilled jobs) [keep in mind this is your typical low skilled high skill kid, not your kids who actually have marketable skills and business accumen in a certain field].

So what does this mean, it means the available pool of potential employees for all positions differ depending on the position, which tells us that for certain positions already over the minimum wage, there is no threat from the minimum wage level worker who doesn't have the skill to even fill the job. this is why those jobs have no threat from a minimum wage.

Again the only jobs with the threat to be lower than current min wage prices are jobs already at the minimum wage, because those are the only jobs that the market price for it has to be determined because the min wage obscured it from being discovered, those jobs with pay over min wage don't have that confusion.

you do realize that this is literally chicken and egg right, particularly when you're talking about well established markets...

Its actually not a chicken egg argument. No one creates a business to cater a need that isn't wanted. When people do that they go under very quickly and those jobs that created are gone.

An example is lets say I opened up a factory to build wooden teeth. Say I got funding by some act of nature or say I had the money saved, I get the money I buy the facilities, I hire workers and I train them and I put out wooden teeth. If there is no market that wants wooden teeth, what will quickly happen to those jobs? They will be gone when I run out of money and can no longer pay the costs.

Underlying point is again, the jobs don't enlarge the economy, expanded markets or creating new markets is what causes economies to grow.

@David_TheMan don't make the case for yourself breh. It's only April.

thanks for the advice, but 'm good either way

 

[David_TheMan]

dp sorry

 

[Brown_Pride]

Its actually not a chicken egg argument. No one creates a business to cater a need that isn't wanted. When people do that they go under very quickly and those jobs that created are gone.

An example is lets say I opened up a factory to build wooden teeth. Say I got funding by some act of nature or say I had the money saved, I get the money I buy the facilities, I hire workers and I train them and I put out wooden teeth. If there is no market that wants wooden teeth, what will quickly happen to those jobs? They will be gone when I run out of money and can no longer pay the costs.

Underlying point is again, the jobs don't enlarge the economy, expanded markets or creating new markets is what causes economies to grow.

Jobs don't expand an economy? Are you insane? That market you're referencing who is it made of? How do you expand a market? Strictly marketing? Can't sell cars to people with no jobs. Can't sell phones to people with no money. You can market the fuk out of a product but if no one can buy who you selling to?

More jobs, more people with money, more jobs, more people with money, etc, etc, etc. Again, chicken egg, and again, in established markets.

New markets can come about in many ways i mean just look at the hoover board. there was no market for that until it was created. Same thing with smart phones. Sometimes a product can be innovative enough that it generates a market.

 

[David_TheMan]

Jobs don't expand an economy? Are you insane? That market you're referencing who is it made of? How do you expand a market? Strictly marketing? Can't sell cars to people with no jobs. Can't sell phones to people with no money. You can market the fuk out of a product but if no one can buy who you selling to?

More jobs, more people with money, more jobs, more people with money, etc, etc, etc. Again, chicken egg, and again, in established markets.

New markets can come about in many ways i mean just look at the hoover board. there was no market for that until it was created. Same thing with smart phones. Sometimes a product can be innovative enough that it generates a market.

Nope they don't, as I've already demonstrated.
I'm insane but you don't know what the market is in a discussion about macro economics. Come on man.
Market is the available customer base for a given product or service
You can expand a market by introducing a substitute product or tapping into a underserved market by creating a competing product.

As for your "can't sell cars" you wouldn't make cars if no one wanted to buy them, and you can take that down the list of what you want to fill in that blank.

More jobs don't equal more money. In a non-fiat and fiat monetary system the supply of money is disconnected from labor market.
So no your chicken egg argument has no merit.

Yes, new markets can come about, and its realizing new markets as well as expanding other existing markets or hitting underserved markets that would actually enlarge an economy, not simply having more jobs.

 

[MrSinnister]

It's retarded to even argue this. What market are you applying this to? My theory is the free market creates the wage requirement, but the wage must be codified so you maintain an economy. US, when we trusted our economists more, used to do pretty fukking well at this balance. Once we started only trusting business interests, we started quickly becoming a glorified fiefdom.

Starting economies should be catered to the money that is expected to be flowing into it, to their most valued product (not necessarily the most expensive). So yes, if you have few valued products, your min wage could be lower. If those products are expensive to make, you quickly lose value if you can't sell them.

Too much waste means you have a very weak economy. That should fix the chicken/egg stalemate we have here.

 

[Brown_Pride]

Nope they don't, as I've already demonstrated.
I'm insane but you don't know what the market is in a discussion about macro economics. Come on man.
Market is the available customer base for a given product or service
You can expand a market by introducing a substitute product or tapping into a underserved market by creating a competing product.

As for your "can't sell cars" you wouldn't make cars if no one wanted to buy them, and you can take that down the list of what you want to fill in that blank.

More jobs don't equal more money. In a non-fiat and fiat monetary system the supply of money is disconnected from labor market.
So no your chicken egg argument has no merit.

Yes, new markets can come about, and its realizing new markets as well as expanding other existing markets or hitting underserved markets that would actually enlarge an economy, not simply having more jobs.

what have you demonstrated outside of your ability to read a definition off of google?

Obviously you don't make cars you can't sell, but then, you don't make money, if you're a car producer who's not producing cars what are you exactly? You're out of business. Ergo you can't sell shyt to people who can't buy shyt. Jobs are important, they are REQUIRED in order for any market to function.

I get it, you've read a few text books and digested some information from a certain viewpoint, but economics, particularly macro economics, is vastly more complicated than formulas provide for, any good economist will tell you that.

Let's look back at what our government did when the economy went to shyt, how did they stimulate the economy again, they spurred spending. Why? Because companies can't sell shyt to people who don't have shyt.

Now, I will say that you can take a step back and justify not making shyt for people without shyt...but that again only highlights my point that there's a rather large aspect of chicken/egg here and really, depending on your view on economics you can argue for propping up the chicken (corporations) or eggs (people). Personally i've seen what trickle down leads to so i'd rather put my efforts behind helping people.

 

[David_TheMan]

what have you demonstrated outside of your ability to read a definition off of google?

Obviously you don't make cars you can't sell, but then, you don't make money, if you're a car producer who's not producing cars what are you exactly? You're out of business. Ergo you can't sell shyt to people who can't buy shyt. Jobs are important, they are REQUIRED in order for any market to function.

I get it, you've read a few text books and digested some information from a certain viewpoint, but economics, particularly macro economics, is vastly more complicated than formulas provide for, any good economist will tell you that.

Let's look back at what our government did when the economy went to shyt, how did they stimulate the economy again, they spurred spending. Why? Because companies can't sell shyt to people who don't have shyt.

Now, I will say that you can take a step back and justify not making shyt for people without shyt...but that again only highlights my point that there's a rather large aspect of chicken/egg here and really, depending on your view on economics you can argue for propping up the chicken (corporations) or eggs (people). Personally i've seen what trickle down leads to so i'd rather put my efforts behind helping people.

You asked me how I definie market, I told you, and your first line is to complain about me telling you the economic definition of market. Come on kid, get it together, don't ask a question then get mad when your question is answered. Again as for businesses and job, they are all created by the market expressing or being expressive in showing that there is a need unfulfilled. There are no businesses unless there is a market demand for a product, which makes a potential producer want to produce in the first place, jobs come from that initial contention, not the other way around.

jobs are important, no one said hey werent, you seem to now be trying to move goalposts because the original contention was disproven. The original question was more jobs grow the economy, fact of the matter is more jobs don't grow the economy, expanded markets and new markets do.

I've get that you believe you are speaking economic reality, I understand that, I think you seem to not know what you are talking about in terms of the level of theory and reality based observations that entails the Mises strain of the Austrian School of economics. So please educatee yourself first or ask me questions if you are interested about what you think I know and about Austrian theory, if you won't just say you disagree and move on.

What you describe is what austrians call the business cycle, and its not positive at all. Yes the government stimulates spending, no its isn't good for the economy or the citizens of that respective nation, with every boom they initiate a bust is to follow, to which they typically start another boom. its all a result in government subsidizing malinvestment. Needless to say government trying to get people spend isn't actually a good example to use IMHO if you want to talk about wise economic decisions, seems to me Keynesian economics has been soundly shown to be faulty on a pure logical level and in execution.

If you want a quick primer that is more in=depth here are a couple of videos on the flaws of spending to put off market correction.


Nah I don't see your chicken and egg connondrum. there is no business to hire unless there is a need, forget even about people having jobs, no business is going to start on the notion that there isn't a need to be filled by their business, period.

As for trickledown, I'm not a proponent of trickle-down or supply-side economics

 

[JahFocus CS]