maybe thats because it isnt
Oh, Glad to see a Higher Learning thread do numbers and have such wonderful discussions
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Oh, Glad to see a Higher Learning thread do numbers and have such wonderful discussions
Greenstrings
All Star
I'm not alleging anything outlandish here. this has been the progression in most Western countries over the last few centuries. Social workers and charities now perform much of the pastoral care and family guidance that people used to look to the church for. Care of the disabled, once in large part the remit of religious institutions, is now presided over by the state and charities. The gravitational pull of the church in relation to communities is much diminished and other forces have stepped in to plug the gap to whatever degree. There isn't really an argument to be had here.
Which is great but you weren't talking about institutions you were talking about people.
So can you show me evidence that atheists donate less to charity or give up less of their time for their communities?
All you need is ONE non-religious group doing canned food drives? Is that it?
What are you saying right now?
Religious organizations have the head-start of human history. Secularism is barely old enough to make a blip on the radar of time
Is your argument that the church was only good for taking care of the disabled? Of course things like the church being a center for literacy have decreased with time but you seem to have a very limited view on its function.
Surely you are not arguing that the state and charities are filling in the gap where the church provides excellent art programs, music programs, homeless shelters, cooperative economics, poverty outreach, town hall meetings, etc...I'd bet any and everything that the church is more effective at these things at the local level than non-religious institutions.
You can't talk about one with out the other. That is the problem with people like you.
Nevermind the fact that you are aware that there is no data for what you are requesting at the individual level, but surely you can find all of these non-religious institutions doing what you claim because surely atheist are social creatures who organize themselves based on goals, correct?
Where are the organizations that they are doing this through? You have yet to show me a list of these non-religious organizations so we can objectively break down numbers.
onelastdeath
Banned
I've never argued that secularism cannot fill in the gaps IN TIME but at this present moment, atheist have not found out a way to use LOGIC to COALESCE people in ways for optimal social organization because we respond to emotional appeal above all else.
Thanks for proving my point.
1. Religion has no monopoly on collectivism or community
2. Theism is illogical
3. Religion has been using their leverage for a lot longer than secular institutions have been in existence
4. Emotional appeal is not unique to religion nor does religion have a monopoly on emotion
Are you going to keep creating straw mans, arguments I never posed, and excuses or will you show me alternative social models that have proved just as effective in the here and now?
Who gives a fukk if religious people have hospitals? Thats my point.
What does that have to do with god existing or not? Or acting as if a god exists?
I am arguing the former so if you want to argue about something unknowable like the existence of God then I am not the one
Yo, are you not reading the nikka's posts before you reply? You're literally arguing different points than @Poitier is
If atheists are so liberated from religion now, why do they sit around discussing it so much? I never hear about the magnificent benefits of atheism. It's always dumping on religion. If you're free from the shackles of religion, there's no need to discuss it all day.
Greenstrings
All Star
You're arguing around my point. The extent to which the Church was responsible for these things within communities has greatly diminished relative to what it was. You'd have to be insane to think otherwise.
I know full well the scope of the church's function as well as its value and it is disingenuous of you to argue that I don't when I've suggested nothing along those lines. Unless of course you can point to the part where I said the church was only good for one particular thing.
You most definitely can, there's no point in acting as if people in the developed world don't have more agency as individuals and are less beholden to institutions.
Oh really? Please tell me more about people like me.
I'm being coy to see if you'll actually display integrity and do the research. I know full well that there have been plenty of studies on the topic and if you were interested in having an honest conversation you would have looked it up.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1559-1816.1975.tb00684.x/abstract
http://www.amsciepub.com/doi/abs/10.2466/pr0.1976.39.1.151?journalCode=pr0&
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20207660
http://pss.sagepub.com/content/18/9/803.abstract
Dude you're not dumb you know full well that there are plenty of non religious charitable organisations out there but if you insist on me copy/pasting some shyt you could easily google yourself then so be it.
http://freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Secular_charities#Secular_Charities_and_Aid_groups
Secular Charities and Aid groups
The mission of the ACLU is to preserve all of constitutional protections and guarantees relating to First Amendment rights, including the freedom to practice religion or choose not to, equal protection, due process, and right to privacy.
AI’s vision is of a world in which every person enjoys all of the human rights enshrined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and other international human rights standards. In pursuit of this vision, AI’s mission is to undertake research and action focused on preventing and ending grave abuses of the rights to physical and mental integrity, freedom of conscience and expression, and freedom from discrimination, within the context of its work to promote all human rights.
DefCon is an online grassroots movement combating the growing power of the religious right. It includes a blog on religious freedom issues, action alerts, and in-depth articles on scientific, religious, and legal issues of the day.
Doctors Without Borders/Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) is an international independent medical humanitarian organization that delivers emergency aid to people affected by armed conflict, epidemics, natural and man-made disasters, and exclusion from health care in nearly 70 countries.
a simple way to provide students in need with resources that our public schools often lack.
Engineers Without Borders Canada focuses on creating systemic and lasting change to battle global poverty. Currently, their geographic focus is on sub-Saharan African countries, namely Malawi, Ghana, Burkina Faso, Uganda, Zambia and Liberia. EWB invests in people - smart systems changers, and they incubate the systemic innovations that these leaders create to accelerate rural African development. It’s not about projects. It’s not about technology. It’s about people working with people to create lasting, scalable change that unlocks human potential.
Engineers Without Borders USA (EWB-USA) helps to provide clean water, electricity, sanitation systems, and education. The concept is very similar to Doctors Without Borders.
Foundation Beyond Belief's (FBB) mission is "To demonstrate humanism at its best by supporting efforts to improve this world and this life, and to challenge humanists to embody the highest principles of humanism, including mutual care and responsibility."
Unlike their counterpart, the Salvation Army which is an evangelical Christian "charity" that is also politically and socially-active promoting religion, Goodwill is a secular organization that runs thrift stores coast-to-coast. From their page: "Our network of 165 independent, community-based Goodwills in the United States and Canada offers customized job training, employment placement and other services to people who have disabilities, lack education or job experience, or face employment challenges."
lets you connect with and loan money to unique small businesses in the developing world.
Oxfam International is a confederation of 12 organizations working together with over 3,000 partners in more than 100 countries to find lasting solutions to poverty, suffering and injustice. The Oxfams operate in over 100 countries worldwide working with local partners to alleviate poverty and injustice.
The Nature Conservancy is a leading international, nonprofit organization dedicated to preserving the diversity of life on Earth. An environmental group that protects natural habitats and the wildlife within them. Focuses on "science-based" initiatives.
Population Connection is the national grassroots population organization that educates young people and advocates progressive action to stabilize world population at a level that can be sustained by Earth's resources. Works against faith-based policies that are supported by the Religious Right.
Secular organisation, the world's first service club organisation. Clubs are nonpolitical, nonreligious, and open to all cultures, races, and creeds. Motto is "service above self". Notable project is global Polio eradication.
Secular Avenue is an atheist charity reaching out to people in the secular community. Mission is to help secular individuals achieve safety, stability, and autonomy. The SAFE program helps people who are unsafe at home due to leaving religion, domestic abuse, or coming out as LGBTQ.
National nonprofit that establishes urban public boarding schools to prepare students from underserved communities for success in college.
The Secular Humanist Aid and Relief Effort or S.H.A.R.E. was developed over twenty years ago for those who wish to contribute to those people afflicted by natural or human disasters without having to use the intermediary of a religious organization. S.H.A.R.E. is a program of the Council for Secular Humanism, which for 29 years has been the leading organization promoting the rights and values of secular humanists in the U.S. and abroad.
The leading science-based non-profit working for a healthy environment and safer world.
UNICEF mobilizes political will and material resources to help countries, particularly developing countries, ensure a "first call for children" and to build their capacity to form appropriate policies and deliver services for children and their families. UNICEF provides emergency and disaster relief.
The Wheelchair Foundation is a non-profit organization leading an international effort to provide free wheelchairs to every child, teen and adult who needs one, but cannot afford one. For over 10 years, the Wheelchair Foundation has been delivering hope, mobility, and freedom to people with disabilities, in an effort to provide at least 1,000,000 wheelchairs around the world.
Dr. Sebi Jr.
Trust Me
Emphatically. I too learned this ledge-knowing from that Wu Tang song. Let me drop some gems and jew-L's for the people.Cesare Borgia was an Italian politician born in 1498. His CAC ass looked like this:
CACs.Now here's the oldest icon of Jesus from Egypt. It's from the 6th century and it's in an Egyptian monastery.
Straight hair, light skin, CAC nose, CAC-like facial hair, and it was painted hundreds of years before Cesare Bor.......
Hold on, brehs. Hold on. Wu Tang wouldn't spit nonsense.You see, the Borgias obviously had a time machine. Yeah. A time machine. They went back in time almost a thousand years and made an Egyptian Christian paint this Jesus.Don't research Wu Tang lyrics to find out of they're true.Don't research early Christianity.
Just donate to Dr. Umar and don't ask any questions.As I stated, the Church no longer is THE center for things like learning, literacy, commissioning art, etc but that does not delegitimize its utility, which is what the argument is about.
People in the developed world are often even more dependent on institutions and social constructs
Surely you realize social science studies are not legitimate measures of how people actually act in the real world?
There is a different between saying YES you will help the disabled on a piece of paper and actually doing the work involved. You should be able to point to examples to substantiate your data, correct?
Do you understand nuance? How many of these are as effective as the Church in any given thing? How many people have these organizations mobilized? Instead of copy and pasting a list can you break down numbers for me so we can look at this objectively?
And most of these organizations deal with poverty outreach, where are the orgs dealing with the arts, music, community events and town halls
Are you going to argue that me donating 10 dollars to any of these charities that will probably be siphoned off by a crook is as effective as physically doing community work through the church
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