Amazon's HQ2 moving to Northern VA and NYC; 2/14: Amazon pulls out of NYC after public backlash!

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Why New York Is Paying Amazon $3 Billion to Do What Google Will Do for Free

The idea is that it’s very important that Amazon is going to Queens, and that by doing so, it will serve two key development goals for the city: moving office development out of the congested Manhattan core, and building a tech cluster that can challenge Silicon Valley.

Before I get into the good argument, I need to address one of the bad arguments. And I need to note, the subsidy package Amazon has been promised is not $1.5 billion, even though that’s a number a lot of people are throwing around. It’s closer to $3 billion — $1.7 billion from the state and a further $1.3 billion from the city.

That amounts to over $100,000 per job, paid over a period of more than ten years. Since each job will pay about $150,000 a year, you can think of the subsidy package as roughly equivalent to forgoing nearly all the personal income tax that would be collected on Amazon workers’ salaries over the subsidy period — an expensive proposition.

Of course, Governor Andrew Cuomo argues you shouldn’t think of it this way at all. “It costs us nothing,” he said at a press conference Wednesday — since, he contends, we are only forgoing taxes we wouldn’t get at all if Amazon didn’t come here in the first place. He says we will make back $9 for every $1 in tax forgone, give or take.

The problem with this analysis is it assumes all the economic activity we’re buying with the subsidy package wouldn’t happen without the subsidy package. And that’s not true. Google’s impending expansion in Manhattan — where it will develop a campus nearly as large as the one Amazon plans — shows a mega–tech firm might locate here even if you don’t give it billions of dollars.

Plus, when we do bring Amazon in, it will tend to crowd out other businesses and especially other people that might have located where Amazon is going. New York is crowded — there’s more demand for housing than supply, and the number of top development sites is limited — so the case that subsidized economic development means more net economic activity is much weaker here than it might be in, say, Cleveland.

Amazon’s move to Queens is sure to significantly increase rents and home prices in the western part of the borough. That’s great news if you already own a home there. But their move will make it more expensive for people who don’t work for Amazon to live in Queens, and will therefore make it more difficult for some other firms to expand and hire in New York.

So, “actually this is free” is not the good argument

....

But: Is that an important goal? Does New York need to be the leader in everything, even if that drives up rents for people who don’t work in the tech industry? And even if strengthened core office districts outside Manhattan are an important planning goal for the city, is it worth paying $3 billion just to bolster one of them?

I think the answer is pretty clearly no.

“The city seems to think — and the state seems to think — that we’re still in the 1970s, where our big problem is that large employers are fleeing the city and we need to maintain some kind of tax base at any cost,” says Nicole Gelinas, a senior fellow at the conservative Manhattan Institute, where she focuses on urban economics and finance.* “Rather than chase down every last job, like it’s some kind of jobs crisis, we should be really looking at the real crisis, which is infrastructure: collecting all of the taxes we have a right to from these companies and using that to build infrastructure.”


Gelinas gets at the real tragedy of development in New York: Our major capital projects cost about five times what they should, and that has paralyzed our ability to add capacity to move commuters in and out of Manhattan.


A much-needed project to add two railroad tracks connecting Penn Station to New Jersey stands frozen by President Trump’s political vendetta against Senator Chuck Schumer — a situation that is only possible because construction costs here are so outlandishly high that we, the wealthiest city in the western hemisphere, cannot afford to build our own damned tunnel.

If we could find a way to build subway tunnels affordably, we wouldn’t need to worry so much about the need to move more offices out of Manhattan — we could just move more workers into and out of Manhattan every day.

But here we are: Subways in Manhattan are so clogged, the city has decided it must find a way to get a major employer to fall in love with Queens, and so along with the state it’s handing out billions of dollars in an effort to achieve that goal.

The Most Expensive Mile of Subway Track on Earth

Why Is New York Different?
New York’s struggles come as transit construction is booming around the world. At least 150 projects have been initiated since 1990, according to a recent study by Yale University researcher David Schleicher.

The approximate average cost of the projects — both in the U.S. and abroad — has been less than $500 million per track mile, the study concluded.

“There was one glaring exception,” Mr. Schleicher said. “New York.”

That exception has not gone unnoticed. The independent online journalist Alon Levy first noted the M.T.A’s high construction costs, and 28 City Council members urged officials to research the issue in October.

Mr. Lhota responded by defending the costs. He said in a letter, “There are unique challenges that contribute to high construction costs in New York City in general, and for M.T.A. projects in particular.”

Mr. Lhota listed 10 explanations, including aging utilities, expensive land, high density, strict regulations and large ridership requiring big stations.

To evaluate those arguments, The Times brought the list to more than 50 contractors, many of whom had worked in New York as well as in other cities. The Times also interviewed nearly 100 current and former M.T.A. employees, reviewed internal project records, consulted industry price indexes and built a database to compare spending on specific items. And The Times observed construction on site in Paris, which is building a project similar to the Second Avenue subway at one-sixth the cost.

The review found evidence for one of the issues cited by the M.T.A.: Because most countries have nationalized health care, projects abroad do not have to fund worker health insurance. That might explain a tenth of the cost differences, contractors said.

But the contractors said the other issues cited by the M.T.A. were challenges that all transit systems face. Density is the norm in cities where subway projects occur. Regulations are similar everywhere. All projects use the same equipment at the same prices. Land and other types of construction do not cost dramatically more in New York. Insurance costs more but is only a fraction of the budget. The M.T.A.’s stations have not been bigger (nor deeper) than is typical.

“Those sound like cop-outs,” said Rob Muley, an executive at the John Holland engineering firm who has worked in Hong Kong and Singapore and visited the East Side Access project, after hearing Mr. Lhota’s reasons.

In Paris, which has famously powerful unions, the review found the lower costs were the result of efficient staffing, fierce vendor competition and scant use of consultants.

....
 

Joe Sixpack

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AOC should really get out and clarify to everyone why this is a bad deal. The Republicans are on her neck for this and spinning the shyt outta this thing and before you know it the narrative will be she doesn’t want jobs for people she only cares about AOC.
 

Perfectson

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This is the missing link , you guys are falling for AoC lack of understanding or she's intentionally doing it to fit her war against the rich . Meanwhile she's proposing billions and trillion dollars package to do the exact same thing (create jobs).

How are some of you this dense? @jayshiggs


Of course you're in here spitting hot garbage. The article you posted is a muddled mess. First it quotes Andrew stating NYC is not paying amazon anything and then it goes on to reframe the argument of Amazon paying and now much if costs. Let's be clear NYC is not paying anything, Amazon will still pay taxes. Now does this deal help NYC improve its subways? Instead of collecting additional tax revenue it's now being foregone , that surely doesn't help. Increasing rents are happening anyway due to gentrification all this helps do is provide livable wages and improve the city ..
I understand the social disagreement with gentrification of neighborhoods but some times a bit is needed in order to improve the quality of life of residents, the issue is to ensure there's affordable subsidized housing so neighborhoods can be of mixed economies
 
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Perfectson

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AOC should really get out and clarify to everyone why this is a bad deal. The Republicans are on her neck for this and spinning the shyt outta this thing and before you know it the narrative will be she doesn’t want jobs for people she only cares about AOC.


She can't ...this isn't a bad deal. Deals like this are made all the time...

It is all about AOC, she wasn't the first person to bring this up but as usual she has usurp this into her own personal vendetta

Twitter Palin strikes again
 
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Texas keeps winning. :wow:

Companies leaving Blue States by the masses and relocating to Texas. :wow:

Most are coming from California. I was going to start a transportation company in the Bay, but a large Black owned company that was my main competitor pulled out and relocated to Texas, I knew the writing was on the wall. This was in 2012.
 

PoorAndDangerous

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AOC should really get out and clarify to everyone why this is a bad deal. The Republicans are on her neck for this and spinning the shyt outta this thing and before you know it the narrative will be she doesn’t want jobs for people she only cares about AOC.
Not just Republicans, MSNBC pundits right now are shytting all over her. Democrats are such pussies we eat our own alive. You'd never see fox news shyting on their own people like this. How is this entirely AOC fault? She had legitimate gripes in regards to Amazon. Everything isn't just about jobs. Amazon needs to start paying taxes.
 

Perfectson

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Not just Republicans, MSNBC pundits right now are shytting all over her. Democrats are such pussies we eat our own alive. You'd never see fox news shyting on their own people like this. How is this entirely AOC fault? She had legitimate gripes in regards to Amazon. Everything isn't just about jobs. Amazon needs to start paying taxes.


Lol, stop being spoon fed
Democrats aren't eating their own, this was a major miss and whiff by an idiot


70% of the people wanted this deal to happen per a poll I saw ...so AoC stomping around aiming victory is thumbing her nose at what smart money and the majority wanted.

You guys are begging her to make sense of something and respond but she cannot , she opened her big mouth , thinking amazon would just move here and be her punching bag for the next decade. Now she can explain how she lost millions in revenue and livable wages
 

PoorAndDangerous

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Lol, stop being spoon fed
Democrats aren't eating their own, this was a major miss and whiff by an idiot


70% of the people wanted this deal to happen per a poll I saw ...so AoC stomping around aiming victory is thumbing her nose at what smart money and the majority wanted.

You guys are begging her to make sense of something and respond but she cannot , she opened her big mouth , thinking amazon would just move here and be her punching bag for the next decade. Now she can explain how she lost millions in revenue and livable wages
You're saying 15$ / hr is a livable wage in new york? Did you ask small businesses how they feel about Amazon coming in and getting all the tax incentives in the world?
 

AnonymityX1000

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Not just Republicans, MSNBC pundits right now are shytting all over her. Democrats are such pussies we eat our own alive. You'd never see fox news shyting on their own people like this. How is this entirely AOC fault? She had legitimate gripes in regards to Amazon. Everything isn't just about jobs. Amazon needs to start paying taxes.
MSNBC only pretends to be left, they are centrists at best. Who cares, they will go back to trying to put together the minutia of Russiagate in a couple of hours.
 
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AnonymityX1000

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This is the missing link , you guys are falling for AoC lack of understanding or she's intentionally doing it to fit her war against the rich . Meanwhile she's proposing billions and trillion dollars package to do the exact same thing (create jobs).

How are some of you this dense? @jayshiggs



Of course you're in here spitting hot garbage. The article you posted is a muddled mess. First it quotes Andrew stating NYC is not paying amazon anything and then it goes on to reframe the argument of Amazon paying and now much if costs. Let's be clear NYC is not paying anything, Amazon will still pay taxes. Now does this deal help NYC improve its subways? Instead of collecting additional tax revenue it's now being foregone , that surely doesn't help. Increasing rents are happening anyway due to gentrification all this helps do is provide livable wages and improve the city ..
I understand the social disagreement with gentrification of neighborhoods but some times a bit is needed in order to improve the quality of life of residents, the issue is to ensure there's affordable subsidized housing so neighborhoods can be of mixed economies
I don't know why you are this dense. But thanks for asking. :mjlol:
 

Perfectson

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You're saying 15$ / hr is a livable wage in new york? Did you ask small businesses how they feel about Amazon coming in and getting all the tax incentives in the world?


What does a small business have to do with this . Youre talking about making millions in tax revenue and you're complaining about tax writeoffs that by the way small businesses do take advantage (obviously not at the level amazon is getting )


$15 isn't a livable wage in NYC, but it's better than what certain people are getting now. Obviously those at that income bracket will still require subsidies but so will the ups packer and McDonald's worker etc etc... at least it's the jobs are putting food on plates, in addition to the higher paying jobs .

Your compliant is what? Amazon or a small businesses, either one will have low earners ...amazon is just providing 22k more of those low earning jobs

Finally
Amazon will pay HQ2 employees $150,000—that goes way further in Nashville vs. NYC and Virginia

The aversge salary will be 150k not 15 dollars in hour
 

Copy Ninja

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The problem with this analysis is it assumes all the economic activity we’re buying with the subsidy package wouldn’t happen without the subsidy package. And that’s not true. Google’s impending expansion in Manhattan — where it will develop a campus nearly as large as the one Amazon plans — shows a mega–tech firm might locate here even if you don’t give it billions of dollars.

The problem with this assumption is that it's not a guarantee the economic activity will reach the level it would had Amazon HQ been built there. Those would have been stable jobs that would also attract other businesses in the area.

Yeah Google did it for free, but that doesn't mean this Amazon HQ would not have been a good investment.

I have no dog in this fight but this shyt seems like hustling backwards.
 

the cac mamba

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Not just Republicans, MSNBC pundits right now are shytting all over her. Democrats are such pussies we eat our own alive. You'd never see fox news shyting on their own people like this. How is this entirely AOC fault? She had legitimate gripes in regards to Amazon. Everything isn't just about jobs. Amazon needs to start paying taxes.
she forgot the golden rule

he who has the gold, makes the rules :dead:

i mean her point has been "i dont think they were paying enough taxes" given her vast experience with business and taxing corporations. OK....but they WERE paying taxes. now she has a legitimate argument about increasing traffic and how locals would be affected, that she has to sell as being worth telling a major amazon office to kick rocks

amazon isnt going anywhere. having an amazon HQ instantly turns you into an economic powerhouse :why:
 

Secure Da Bag

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Of course you're in here spitting hot garbage.

Thank you. :umad:

The article you posted is a muddled mess. First it quotes Andrew stating NYC is not paying amazon anything and then it goes on to reframe the argument of Amazon paying and now much if costs.

That's called a rebuttal. :mjlol:

Let's be clear NYC is not paying anything, Amazon will still pay taxes. Now does this deal help NYC improve its subways? Instead of collecting additional tax revenue it's now being foregone , that surely doesn't help. Increasing rents are happening anyway due to gentrification all this helps do is provide livable wages and improve the city ..
I understand the social disagreement with gentrification of neighborhoods but some times a bit is needed in order to improve the quality of life of residents, the issue is to ensure there's affordable subsidized housing so neighborhoods can be of mixed economies

Amazon's $3B Deal: What It Means For NYC

NEW YORK — Amazon will get nearly $3 billion in tax breaks and other incentives to open one of its new headquarters in Long Island City. The neighborhood will also get some benefits out of the deal, such as infrastructure investments and a new school — though some skeptics worry Amazon will further strain the area's already exploding population.

Officials are calling Amazon's project the biggest economic development initiative in city and state history, as it is expected to create at least 25,000 high-paying jobs and generate $27.5 billion in tax revenue for the city and state over 25 years.

This article seems to agree with you. But 25 years? :picard:

And this sounds like a slush fund

Amazon will make payments in lieu of taxes stemming from the project, about $600 million of which will go to a dedicated fund for infrastructure improvements in the surrounding area, said Deputy Mayor Alicia Glen. How that money is spent will be determined in consultation with the local community, according to Mayor Bill de Blasio's office.

Contrasted in Google's expansion also in NYC

Google plans $1 billion expansion in Manhattan
Google is taking another bite of the Big Apple.

The search giant on Monday detailed its plan to spend $1 billion on a new campus in New York City.

The 1.7 million square-foot Manhattan campus will be known as Google Hudson Square, Ruth Porat, the company's chief financial officer, said in a blog post.

The company will expand by leasing buildings at 550 Washington Street and at 315 and 345 Hudson Street in the West Village.

The announcement follows the company's March purchase of Manhattan's Chelsea Market -- north of the new site -- for $2.4 billion. It also follows Amazon's plan to build its new HQ2 campus in Long Island City in the Queens borough.

The city became home to Google's first office outside California nearly 20 years ago. The company already has more than 7,000 employees in the city. It intends to add another 7,000 staff there over the next 10 years as a "conservative estimate," William Floyd, its director of public policy and government relations, told The Wall Street Journal.

On Thursday, Apple announced that it'll build a new $1 billion campus in Austin, Texas, as part of an expansion across the US.

Another take on Google's expansion

New Google Campus Accelerates Tech’s March Into New York

Google’s expansion in Manhattan contrasts with that of Amazon’s in Long Island City, where a plan to enter the formerly industrial Queens neighborhood has been greeted with intense local debate. Amazon executives, who have promised little in the way of neighborhood benefits in exchange for as much as $3 billion in state and city incentives, faced protests and withering questioning at a New York City Council hearing last week.

Google has expanded quietly and has not asked for public subsidies. “We’ve been growing steadily for the past 18 years without heralding trumpets, or asking for support from the government,” William Floyd, Google’s head of external affairs in New York said this month. “We’ve done it by the dint our own work.”
 

AnonymityX1000

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she forgot the golden rule

he who has the gold, makes the rules :dead:

i mean her point has been "i dont think they were paying enough taxes" given her vast experience with business and taxing corporations. OK....but they WERE paying taxes. now she has a legitimate argument about increasing traffic and how locals would be affected, that she has to sell as being worth telling a major amazon office to kick rocks

amazon isnt going anywhere. having an amazon HQ instantly turns you into an economic powerhouse :why:
This is a prestige thing for the pols responsible for getting them here. The 25K jobs is negligible to all the jobs available in NYC. It would make up less than 1%. NYC will be fine without Amazon.
 
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