Anti-fascists going after Democrats now?

Shogun

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Sorry for the questions, just curious.

It would seem that these people would be decidedly anti-communist/socialist as well...even more so than anti-capitalist.

From my limited experience, though, it seems that there’s at the very least a lose alliance between antifa and communists. What am I missing?
 

EndDomination

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Sorry for the questions, just curious.

It would seem that these people would be decidedly anti-communist/socialist as well...even more so than anti-capitalist.

From my limited experience, though, it seems that there’s at the very least a lose alliance between antifa and communists. What am I missing?
Read my post above. "Antifascists" have no issues with socialists or communists, nor are they anti-socialist or anti-communist.

Beyond that - the entire 20th century - including here in the U.S. had anti-fa being composed of socialists/communists.
 

StatUS

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Alot of Antifa are anarchist. They have no affiliation with the Dems or Progressives. Really they aren't an organized group at all. And plus it's Portland, this is as common as evergreen trees and the Blazers coming up short in the playoffs.

They're just not dumb enough to attack a federal building like the Magas though and have a sense of awareness of consequence.
 

Shogun

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Read my post above. "Antifascists" have no issues with socialists or communists, nor are they anti-socialist or anti-communist.

Beyond that - the entire 20th century - including here in the U.S. had anti-fa being composed of socialists/communists.
I did. My point is if theyre anti-state control...wouldn't socialism and communism require complete state control?
 

EndDomination

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I did. My point is if theyre anti-state control...would soicalism and communism require complete state control?
No. Anarchists of a certain kind are opposed to centralized state control - but they do not compose all who see themselves as antifascist.
I think an incredibly common narrative is that socialists and communists actually want the kind of centralized state control in the USSR; that simply isn't true. Socialists and communists also oppose capitalism and the state (save for Social Democrats, who are effectively "Progressive Liberals"); they just want the dissolution of the state to happen after nationalization, and the creation of direct-democratic community governments - or councils.

This is a really weak overview of socialism and communism but the idea is - direct democracy, which leads to the erosion of the state as "we" see it, and in its place is the everyday individual's control over their portion of the means of production, as well as a proportional say in local governance - in line with every other persons.

"One state socialism" with a totalitarian state control apparatus was the vision of Stalin's middling period.

This will help explain the older ideas of socialism and communism:

State Capitalism and Dictatorship
The Principles of Communism
Marx's Concept of Man. Erich Fromm 1961

And this is how close liberalism is to fascism:
Rational Fascism
 

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All anarchists are anti-fascist. It's inherent in the ideology. Anti-capitalism and anti-statism are the antitheses of fascism, since fascism is inherently a pro-capitalist and pro-state-repressive ideology.
That's like saying all Amish are anti-nuclear war. Sure, it's technically true, but for an anarchist to simply describe themselves as anti-fascist without being clear that they oppose all governments is more than a bit misleading.



They have neither helped nor harmed BLM, anti-Trump, and anti-ICE measures.

I've been attending them since around 2011, and the idea that antifascists caused robust issues is openly nonsense; police violence preceded any antifascist action with Black Lives Matter in 2014, Occupy Wall Street in 2011, the original anti-DHS actions, and the anti-ICE actions.
Police violence is HELPFUL to BLM, anti-Trump, and anti-ICE measures so long as no cover for the violence is given. Police violence was a crucial aspect of the Civil Rights Movement, one of the most crucial (the police dogs in Birmingham could be seen as the moment the national tide turned).

What anarchists acting like fools have done is provide cover for that violence. Every building burned, every bottle thrown, every window smashed, gives the average "moderate" American more room to dismiss the protests and accept a degree of state violence against them. I follow Portland news a bit closer than most since I grew up there and still have friends there, and I have heard many BLM activists in Portland who have expressed extreme displeasure with anarchists fukking up protests that they were never invited to and severing damaging the reputation of BLM protesters.

Here's just one passage, which is interesting because it mainly shows the perspective of a Black anarchist. Even though he identified with the anarchists rather than the BLM group, he still couldn't get the anarchists to respect the BLM group's desires or see how they were being counterproductive.
The belief that some protests were no longer focused on racial justice had been unspoken for months but was finally brought into the open Nov. 4, when a Black Lives Matter march crossed paths downtown with a group of anarchist protesters. The BLM group asked the anarchists to join their non-violent march for the night.

Kevin Wright, who has protested in peaceful marches and “direct actions” that encouraged vandalism, stood on the back of his truck watching the two separate groups converge at an intersection, both chanting Black Lives Matter, both refusing to march together.

Wright told the crowd, mostly dressed in black, some wearing helmets, that they have an opportunity to unite. He was met with unenthusiastic cheers.

“I didn’t understand,” said Wright, who is Black and was there initially with the anarchist group. “It made no sense for the two protests not to be together, especially if the end goal is for Black civil rights.”

For four years, Portland activists had mobilized in resistance to actions by the Trump administration. But the day after the election, with Trump’s defeat looking more certain, groups were not merging to celebrate toppling a shared nemesis. Instead, they split.

Racial justice activists told Wright they were afraid that if windows were broken or property destroyed, it would be framed as racial justice protesters committing acts of vandalism.

“The problem is breaking stuff,” Wright asked. “If we just don’t break stuff for one night, can we come together?”

He got on a microphone and tried to convince the mostly white, black-clad group of anarchists to refrain from doing what they seemingly had shown up to accomplish.

“For tonight, don’t break stuff,” Wright pleaded. “Stand with Black people. Set an example when Black people and Black organizers ask you to stand with their revolution.”

Some in the crowd cheered, but others turned away. Under the Burnside Bridge, Wright heard a smaller group of anarchists debating what to do next.

“I definitely heard them say, ‘We’re not here to just listen to Black people. We have no leaders, no one decides to tell us what to do.’”

The anarchists split away, smashing windows of businesses indiscriminately, prompting the governor to send in the National Guard.
That was one key incident two months ago but if you know the protest scene in Portland then you know this shyt has been going on THE ENTIRE TIME. Black Lives Matter and other such groups will attempt to do one thing and anarchists will come in and fukk it up.

If all the public were subject to were images of Black folk protesting peacefully and police engaging violently, then public opinion would be impacted. Every time a black-clad figure throws a brick through a window or burns a building down, it decreases the public support of the BLM movement among the non-committed center. And you see the White Supremacists know this, the ones who are purposely sending in agents to incite violence in BLM protests. If you anarchists are doing the same things to BLM that the White Supremacists are doing, then perhaps it's the wrong move?



If you're over the age of 20, you've lived through at least 4 waves of pretty massive "peaceful protest" that has resulted in no state action to amplify what the angry citizens.

If you honestly think marching around alone will bring about any significant change, or that organizing large groups alone will bring that about, I can give you a list of actions nationwide since 2000 that perhaps may force you to change your thesis.
Complaining that marches haven't brought change and suggesting that therefore nonviolence protest doesn't work is like complaining that street gangs haven't brought change and suggesting therefore that violence doesn't work.

Disorganized protest movements without effective tactics and significant long-term sacrifice rarely succeed whether they're violent or nonviolent. The Civil Rights Movement demonstrated major success over the course of a decade because they were well-organized, had clear long-term objectives with explicit plans to meet those objectives, and were willing to undergo meaningful sacrifice. We haven't had that level of effective organization and leadership yet in the 21st century protest movements, which is why we haven't attained the same level of success. However, we are closer now than we've been in a long long time.

Don't fukk it up for the rest of us.
 
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Professor Emeritus

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Here's an example:

The CRM repeatedly used police brutality and White violence to shift public opinion. Every image and story on the national news of protesters blasted with fire hoses or angry white mobs attacking a Freedom Rider bus or police dogs attacking a teenager pushed the movement forward, because it increased public empathy to their cause and made Black folk appear to be on the side of good and the police on the side of evil.

On the other hand, when the police used violence against the Black Panthers and the Black Liberation Army, the public generally responded with a collective shrug. Despite all the good that the BPP did, they were perceived as having embraced violence as a legitimate tool and thus violent reprisals against them were perceived as justified by the general public. What happened to Fred Hampton never could have happened to Martin Luther King Jr. without a national reckoning. The FBI spent over a decade desperately trying to figure out how to handle MLK Jr. and his group, but they never once just had the police bust down the doors and shoot him. If anyone in government was behind James Earl Ray they had to hide it, because they knew that government could not violently take down a nonviolent movement without public tide shifting against them.

Every time anarchists introduce violence, they make justice more difficult for others to achieve. Every time they enter a protest with their unclear or explicitly unpopular demands, they make it harder for the rest of us with potentially achievable demands to move forward.


How white radicals hijacked Portland's protests - UnHerd

Portland's anarchists say they support racial justice. Black activists want nothing to do with them

In America’s whitest city, Black activists struggle to separate themselves from anarchists
 

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That's like saying all Amish are anti-nuclear war. Sure, it's technically true, but for an anarchist to simply describe themselves as anti-fascist without being clear that they oppose all governments is more than a bit misleading.
I don't think it is misleading at all. It's the very nature of anarchism.



Police violence is HELPFUL to BLM, anti-Trump, and anti-ICE measures so long as no cover for the violence is given. Police violence was a crucial aspect of the Civil Rights Movement, one of the most crucial (the police dogs in Birmingham could be seen as the moment the national tide turned).

What anarchists acting like fools have done is provide cover for that violence. Every building burned, every bottle thrown, gives the average "moderate" American more room to dismiss the protests and accept a degree of state violence against them. I follow Portland news a bit closer than most since I grew up there and still have friends there, and I have heard many BLM activists in Portland who have expressed extreme displeasure with anarchists fukking up protests that they were never invited to and severing damaging the reputation of BLM protesters.

Here's just one passage, which is interesting because it mainly shows the perspective of a Black anarchist. Even though he identified with the anarchists rather than the BLM group, he still couldn't get the anarchists to respect the BLM group's desires or see how they were being counterproductive.

That was one key incident two months ago but if you know the protest scene in Portland then you know this shyt has been going on THE ENTIRE TIME. Black Lives Matter and other such groups will attempt to do one thing and anarchists will come in and fukk it up.

If all the public were subject to were images of Black folk protesting peacefully and police engaging violently, then public opinion would be impacted. Every time a black-clad figure throws a brick through a window or burns a building down, it decreases the public support of the BLM movement among the non-committed center. And you see the White Supremacists know this, the ones who are purposely sending in agents to incite violence in BLM protests. If you anarchists are doing the same things to BLM that the White Supremacists are doing, then perhaps it's the wrong move?
It's only helpful to a certain extent. The reaction from the U.S. public in 2020 was drastically different from the reaction in 2014, 2011, and 2004. The violent beatings, macing/pepperspraying, mass arrests, and later executions of the protestors by police elicited an incredibly short outcry from the American public, and then an even faster panning of the protestors. The people who dismissed the protests were going to dismiss them regardless of any physical action taken by the protestors. You're incredibly up-to-date with the media rhetoric - so you've witnessed it. The obvious difference is that this isn't the 1960s anymore, and large scale "non-violent" protests are useful for facial changes to laws and policies - in that case it was a codified apartheid state.

It doesn't work well when you're trying to "win the hearts and minds" of a largely apathetic public and government who's conducting damage under the auspices of facially neutral policy, right.

I'm also incredibly familiar with Portland - I was there with some IWW comrades a few years ago, as well as at their J20, and there is a massive difference there versus the rest of the U.S. - especially in regard to issues between their Black activists and their White activists.


Complaining that marches haven't brought change and suggesting that therefore nonviolence protest doesn't work is like complaining that street gangs haven't brought change and suggesting therefore that violence doesn't work.

Disorganized protest movements without effective tactics and significant long-term sacrifice rarely succeed whether they're violent or nonviolent. The Civil Rights Movement demonstrated major success over the course of a decade because they were well-organized, had clear long-term objectives with explicit plans to meet those objectives, and were will to undergo meaningful sacrifice. We haven't had that level of effective organization and leadership yet in the 21st century protest movements, which is why we haven't attained the same level of success. However, we are closer now than we've been in a long long time.

Don't fukk it up for the rest of us
The organization was by and far not the only reason behind its success. In fact, had the Civil Rights Movement not had the acquiescence of powerful members of government, international pressure from the Western European states, the USSR, and the later Pink Tide counties of Latin and South America - nothing would have changed, save for some facially racist federal and state laws. The largest shifts happened *after* the movement when the continued pressure by increasingly radical groups forced the hand of reluctant legislatures - and the Warren Court's SCOTUS common law really took effect.
 

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It's only helpful to a certain extent. The reaction from the U.S. public in 2020 was drastically different from the reaction in 2014, 2011, and 2004. The violent beatings, macing/pepperspraying, mass arrests, and later executions of the protestors by police elicited an incredibly short outcry from the American public, and then an even faster panning of the protestors.
Oh wow, big surprise, perhaps that was because there were images and video all over the television of buildings burning and property smashed from the very first days?

You're noting the EXACT effect I just told you about. The US public had a different reaction and panned the protesters more readily because they saw a lot more violence right off the bat (even though the BLM protesters were largely not responsible for that violence, it was anarchists and agents and other hangers-on). How do you think that helps support your argument?




The people who dismissed the protests were going to dismiss them regardless of any physical action taken by the protestors.
It's willful blindness to claim that the public reaction to the protesters would have been exactly the same whether or not there was massive burning and property damage. If you think that those images don't affect public opinion in the center, then you're either disingenuous or a fool.



It doesn't work well when you're trying to "win the hearts and minds" of a largely apathetic public and government who's conducting damage under the auspices of facially neutral policy, right.
Images like George Floyd's and Ahmaud Arbrey's killing were reducing public apathy. People had a visceral reaction to that shyt. We had more direct participation in protests than ever before, and a real chance of decreasing the apathy in the center. But burning buildings and smashed windows helped restore it.



The organization was by and far not the only reason behind its success. In fact, had the Civil Rights Movement not had the acquiescence of powerful members of government, international pressure from the Western European states, the USSR, and the later Pink Tide counties of Latin and South America - nothing would have changed, save for some facially racist federal and state laws.
The CRM gained the acquiescence of powerful members of government and international pressure because their tactics were so effective. You can't pretend that anyone in US government or Western Europe had really given a shyt about racial justice before that. They won that support due to their tactics. The BPP and BLA failed to garner the same support...because of their tactics.

I mean, you clearly got your dog in this one and I understand why you're gonna be biased in that direction, but even you are mostly seeing the same set of facts that I'm seeing, you're just refusing to acknowledge the implication of those facts. You've speculating several times with "it would have happened anyway" or "it wouldn't have happened anyway", but the actual results we see time and time again don't follow your speculations. Nonviolent movements gain larger public support bases than violent movements. That's demonstrably true.
 

Shogun

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No. Anarchists of a certain kind are opposed to centralized state control - but they do not compose all who see themselves as antifascist.
I think an incredibly common narrative is that socialists and communists actually want the kind of centralized state control in the USSR; that simply isn't true. Socialists and communists also oppose capitalism and the state (save for Social Democrats, who are effectively "Progressive Liberals"); they just want the dissolution of the state to happen after nationalization, and the creation of direct-democratic community governments - or councils.

This is a really weak overview of socialism and communism but the idea is - direct democracy, which leads to the erosion of the state as "we" see it, and in its place is the everyday individual's control over their portion of the means of production, as well as a proportional say in local governance - in line with every other persons.

"One state socialism" with a totalitarian state control apparatus was the vision of Stalin's middling period.

This will help explain the older ideas of socialism and communism:

State Capitalism and Dictatorship
The Principles of Communism
Marx's Concept of Man. Erich Fromm 1961

And this is how close liberalism is to fascism:
Rational Fascism
Yeah, I get the difference. I guess I just forget that people still have hope for utopian socialism. Seems we're too far gone for that. Would take some serious re-programming, I think.
 

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Oh wow, big surprise, perhaps that was because there were images and video all over the television of buildings burning and property smashed from the very first days?

You're noting the EXACT effect I just told you about. The US public had a different reaction and panned the protesters more readily because they saw a lot more violence right off the bat (even though the BLM protesters were largely not responsible for that violence, it was anarchists and agents and other hangers-on). How do you think that helps support your argument?





It's willful blindness to claim that the public reaction to the protesters would have been exactly the same whether or not there was massive burning and property damage. If you think that those images don't affect public opinion in the center, then you're either disingenuous or a fool.




Images like George Floyd's and Ahmaud Arbrey's killing were reducing public apathy. People had a visceral reaction to that shyt. We had more direct participation in protests than ever before, and a real chance of decreasing the apathy in the center. But burning buildings and smashed windows helped restore it.




The CRM gained the acquiescence of powerful members of government and international pressure because their tactics were so effective. You can't pretend that anyone in US government or Western Europe had really given a shyt about racial justice before that. They won that support due to their tactics. The BPP and BLA failed to garner the same support...because of their tactics.

I mean, you clearly got your dog in this one and I understand why you're gonna be biased in that direction, but even you are mostly seeing the same set of facts that I'm seeing, you're just refusing to acknowledge the implication of those facts. You've speculating several times with "it would have happened anyway" or "it wouldn't have happened anyway", but the actual results we see time and time again don't follow your speculations. Nonviolent movements gain larger public support bases than violent movements. That's demonstrably true.
My response comes from having both worked in state government and from years an activist.
BPP and BLA also failed to garner the same national support because they were fighting an internationalist communist struggle, not just a vague, large scale struggle against unjust laws and segregation. Labor unions and the like were defanged and were vastly more peaceful (and whiter/less radical).

Regardless of the public sympathy - no amount of Black squares IG posts and surface-level "Black Lives Matter" sentiment from leadership or representational government provides any change at all. The massive struggle over the last couple of decades or so has resulted, at best, in slight changes to police tactic use and body cameras. That is it. This included both "sympathetic" peaceful protests and "unsympathetic" less-peaceful protests.

At the same time there have been hundreds of millions poured into an increased police presence, militarization of the police, and a much more robust local, state, and federal surveillance apparatus. Making the "cop on the ground model" more obsolete.

If the only change since the 1960s - in regard to promises and proposed resolutions on the local and state level - came after violence - how can you say that more physical protests are not the best route?
 

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One of the main problems with the majority of democrats is they think they're on the left, so it leads to confusion like this.
This. Dems don't seem to realize they're literally center-right - and you can take a glance at every other Left-Liberal party worldwide and see that.
 
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