Assemble a starting 5 that can defeat this lineup.

[Cheech&Chong]

Iverson
Steph
KD
KG
Duncan

 

[Shadow King]

Curry/Allen/Miller is really weak defensively, I don't see why you would include Miller when you can have Klay instead. I especially don't like it because rather it forces you to have a weak defender on Kobe AND MJ instead of just Kobe, and MJ was a master of exploiting a defender quickly before help could arrive. Gil's lineup still is so powerful on threes though that you're giving yourself the chance to beat threes with twos. I don't think it's as sure a thing as my lineup but it could still work as a strategy. Who does he have at the 4 and 5? I just realized that whoever is at the 4 is screwed cause they have to guard LeBron all game long, none of Curry/Allen/Miller has a prayer of D'ing up LeBron and he always kills defenders when the same guy guards him all game.

In my lineup if Kobe posts up Curry then you could double off of Magic to help. Or just let him have those shots - even if he makes 55-60%, you're still winning.




Difference being that Magic would be getting worked for threes with no help, while Steph would only be getting worked for twos and would have rim protectors behind him.




Take a look at my post above this one. There is NO evidence that MJ/Kobe/LeBron stifle the percentages of elite 3pt-shooters in the playoffs. That's not the kind of defenders they are.




And Kawhi is a more intimidating defender too. But Klay needs less space to get off his shot at an elite level. I think both strategies work.




Klay/Kawhi, Pippen/Kawhi, and Durant are going to at least slow down their perimeter players a little, and Durant and D-Rob are both strong rim-protectors on help defense. You don't need to double much (though you can double off Magic), you just need to make sure they're not getting all their shots at the rim.

I'm including Miller cause my initial debate was with Gil. Your lineup has 1 defensive hole while his has 3 and he's asking for 1, at best 2 players to make up for it against 3 of the greatest scorers of all time. So me talking about Miller isn't really pertinent to you. Your lineup works and isn't that far off from mine outside of having 2 shooters and not 3.

There's no evidence of them doing it but are those numbers against them as individual defenders or series numbers where they got different looks/switches?

Edit: He has KD at 4 like us and D-Rob at 5. I have Bron at PG so I guess you'd hide Curry on Magic (who I think posts Curry up and scores or facilitates) and have KD on Bron.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

D-Rob is not covering enough defensive ground to make up for all 3 of those players not being able to contain Jordan Kobe and Bron.

DRob won't have to: Curry can stay on Magic, Allen can guard MJ or Kobe (he's already proven he can defend Kobe - see receipts above), and Reggie (or Klay) can guard Kobe or MJ - they both have the conditioning to stay with them for an entire game, and provide some resistance, and Durant can take LeBron. And as I said earlier in the piece, you force them to take long 2s with a matchup-zone or go with a two-three zone to keep them out of the paint, and you can double, leaving Magic open to beat you from the perimeter.

In fact, that's the best to defend that team - make sure all the defensive action forces their offense into making Magic a scorer.

Peak Jordan Kobe Bron will defend them just fine.

It's already been proven that Bron can't stop Durant (40% from the 3-pt line in the '12 Finals, 47% from the 3-pt line in the '17 Finals, 41% from the 3-pt line in the 2018 Finals), and it's already been proven that Kobe can't stop Allen (52% from the 3-pt line v. Lakers in the '08 Finals), and it's already been proven that Kobe can't stop Reggie (as a 34-year-old he shot 37% from the 3-pt line v. Lakers in the '00 Finals), and it's already been proven the MJ can't stop Reggie (43% from the 3-pt line in the '98 ECF).

How the hell are Jordan, Kobe and Bron going to defend their shooting "just fine", when not only couldn't they do it in reality, but the odds are going to be even less in their favor trying to deal with all THREE of them (plus the greatest 3-pt shooter of them all in Curry, and the swap-out of Klay), at the same?

But fantasizing that your 1-3 will just feast while holding the greatest 3 scorers of all-time to subpar nights 3-4 times is just that, a fantasy.

Who said ANYTHING about holding them to subpar nights?

This is all about Curry, Allen, Miller (or Klay) and Durant shooting at 40+% from behind the arc, and stopping MJ-Kobe-LeBron-Shaq from shooting 60+% as a collective. See, this is the point, all they need to do is provide resistance and force them into long 2s (keep them from getting looks in the paint), force Magic into being a scorer; decrease the probability of them shooting above their typical FG%, because scoring at their typical rates won't be enough trading 2s with 3s, they'll need to match the PPP that equalizes the production of a team hitting 3s at 40%.

Either you can't get in foul trouble in a 5 on 5, or you hack and Shaq and eventually players are fouling out, you can't have both. Like I said to Rhakim, in an actual 7-game series I don't see the OP team being bested but in a single pickup game, sure.

This doesn't even make any sense.

Regardless, in order for this series to be practical, there'd need to be rules put in place which would stop either team exploiting loopholes (e.g. Hack-A-Shaq limited to 2-3 a quarter, to stop teams from doing it on every possession; since players can't foul out of a 5v5 hypo-game).

 

[hotbeezie]

I got

Curry
Iverson
KD
Olajuwon at the 4
Kareem at the 5

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

I'm including Miller cause my initial debate was with Gil. Your lineup has 1 defensive hole while his has 3 and he's asking for 1, at best 2 players to make up for it against 3 of the greatest scorers of all time. So me talking about Miller isn't really pertinent to you. Your lineup works and isn't that far off from mine outside of having 2 shooters and not 3.

Where are the three defensive holes in my lineup -

And this is the ONLY method that'll have a realistic chance of winning. You're not beating that team trading 2s with 2s. On that note:

Curry
Allen (or Klay, Miller)
Miller (or Klay, Allen)
Durant
DRob (or AD)

If we can keep the possession count relatively even, and throw Shaq's ass in a black hole of PnRs over and over - we winning.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

"I don't think it's as sure a thing as my lineup but it could still work as a strategy." - @Rhakim

You can't even see my lineup, so what the fukk are you talking about?



And judging by your lineup:

Steph
Klay
Pippen
Durant
Hakeem

It's actually less effective than mine.

 

[BigMoneyGrip]

4 Lakers on the Squad

The Goat even in retirement didn’t go to the lakers :Skipbreh:

 

[ISO]

Hakeem
KG
Barkley
Payton
Pippen

Great lockdown perimeter and help defense.
Dominate on the block with hakeem, barkley and KG
Payton Hakeem pick and roll

This is probably the team with the best chance to win.

Bad spacing

 

[Lord_Chief_Rocka]

U can win a game or 2

But out of a best of 7

No way any team beating this squad

PG Bron
SG MJ
SF Kobe
PF Magic
C Shaq

At Bron playing PG instead of Magic

 

[Lord_Chief_Rocka]

No way Bron and Jordan could play together though. Would make for terrible chemistry.

 

[Shadow King]

DRob won't have to: Curry can stay on Magic, Allen can guard MJ or Kobe (he's already proven he can defend Kobe - see receipts above), and Reggie (or Klay) can guard Kobe or MJ - they both have the conditioning to stay with them for an entire game, and provide some resistance, and Durant can take LeBron. And as I said earlier in the piece, you force them to take long 2s with a matchup-zone or go with a two-three zone to keep them out of the paint, and you can double, leaving Magic open to beat you from the perimeter.

In fact, that's the best to defend that team - make sure all the defensive action forces their offense into making Magic a scorer.



It's already been proven that Bron can't stop Durant (40% from the 3-pt line in the '12 Finals, 47% from the 3-pt line in the '17 Finals, 41% from the 3-pt line in the 2018 Finals), and it's already been proven that Kobe can't stop Allen (52% from the 3-pt line v. Lakers in the '08 Finals), and it's already been proven that Kobe can't stop Reggie (as a 34-year-old he shot 37% from the 3-pt line v. Lakers in the '00 Finals), and it's already been proven the MJ can't stop Reggie (43% from the 3-pt line in the '98 ECF).

How the hell are Jordan, Kobe and Bron going to defend their shooting "just fine", when not only couldn't they do it in reality, but the odds are going to be even less in their favor trying to deal with all THREE of them (plus the greatest 3-pt shooter of them all in Curry), at the same?

Who said ANYTHING about holding them to subpar nights?

This is all about Curry, Allen, Miller (or Klay) and Durant shooting at 40+% from behind the arc, and stopping MJ-Kobe-LeBron-Shaq from shooting 60+% as a collective. See, this is the point, all they need to do is provide resistance and force them into long 2s (keep them from getting looks in the paint), force Magic into being a scorer; decrease the probability of them shooting above their typical FG%, because scoring at their typical rates won't be enough trading 2s with 3s, they'll need to match the PPP that equalizes the production of a team hitting 3s at 40%.

This doesn't even make any sense.

Regardless, in order for this series to be practical, there'd need to be rules put in place which would stop either team exploiting loopholes (e.g. Hack-A-Shaq limited to 2-3 a quarter, to stop teams from doing it on every possession; since players can't foul out of a 5v5 hypo-game).

I don't know why we assume Magic will stand around from 25 feet away; yes Shaq is down low but so was Kareem when they won all those rings, so knowing how to share space isn't an issue. Magic takes Curry in the post where he can score on him or playmake for everyone else which is just as deadly, but since you want to turn Magic into a scorer, I don't see Curry faring well 1-on-1 against 6'9", 230 Magic who actually has a post game. So it's either deal with this or keep KD on Magic while Curry is on Bron, which isn't suitable.

Reggie and Ray are not successfully guarding Kobe and MJ all night, especially if this team is scheming to get each other the best shots possible while playing next to each other. LeBron does well when the same player is guarding him all night regardless of who it is, so you're really trying to throw all these dudes at him but none of your 1-3 are the types that have any success with him. Since Shaq is who you want to pick on in P&R, the same can be done on his end, D-Rob is not going to intercept every pass made so whoever gets switched on to Shaq, whether it's Curry, Allen, Miller, or KD, they physically cannot stop him from rolling to the rim/pinning them and getting his. So matter of fact, yes let's have Magic stay on the perimeter with Curry, so he can call for a pick from Shaq and get a switch.

Those numbers are series numbers from 3...where are the numbers for their 1-on-1 matchups? Meaning when LeBron specifically guards Durant, what does he shoot? Or Ray's 3s when guarded only by Kobe? Or Reggies's percentages when guarded only by Jordan? The "when guarded by ______" numbers? Since in every other thread "context" is everything.

Your lineup is weak enough defensively to allow the OP team to shoot well into the 50%s in 2s, and no Shaq isn't the only player who will get fouled.

OP said starting 5, not 5 vs 5 pickup, which assumes there would be NBA rules and game duration, meaning substitutions that allows players to foul out. So in a scenario where they are the starting 5 and not the only 5, they are not fouling Shaq all game or even repeatedly to supplement the fouls that MJ, Kobe, LeBron, and Magic will draw.

Where are the three defensive holes in my lineup -

Your entire 1-3 are defensive weaknesses stop it
Klay is obviously much better than Reggie defensively but you have him on the back burner twice as if you prefer both Reggie and Ray over him.

So go ahead assume your 1-3 goes 16-32 or something from 3 while containing 3 of the most elite scorers ever.

And @Rhakim lineup is more effective than yours because he has 4 plus defenders while maintaining 3 knock down shooters. There is no sure thing against the OP starting 5.

 

[Brandon M.]

pippen kawhi kd kareem rodman in their prime is mopping that team

 

[Cladyclad]

At Bron playing PG instead of Magic

Magic best moment ever is him starting at Center

 

[Columbo]

Curry would get destroyed by Magic

If i was to try to make a team, which i doesnt believe one exists but i probably wouldnt put a real point guard on Magic

Id likelyely put Pippen on Magic, Kawhi on Lebron

Some players that could slow down MJ were Joe Dumars, young Sprewell, Reggie Lewis. I see Dumars as the best candidate

Who do you put on Kobe? Maybe one of the guys that i didnt use for MJ, Tayshaun Prince comes to mind

But the problem wirh beating this team of 5, you can slow them down offensively. But it would still be very difficult to score more points then them

Wilt or Hakeem are both good options to go against Shaq, i dont see Pat Ewing and David Robinson as being as good of competition for Shaq

I wouldnt have Durant anywhere near the team, hes too mentally fragile. MJ would verbally ruin him

Edit

Dominique would be an even better matchup against Jordan, he use to put in work against the Bulls

Pippen - Magic
Dr J - Kobe
Dominique - MJ
Kawhi - Lebron
Hakeem - Shaq

Might be the team that would have the best chance

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Curry would get destroyed by Magic

If i was to try to make a team, which i doesnt believe one exists but i probably wouldnt put a real point guard on Magic

Id likelyely put Pippen on Magic, Kawhi on Lebron

Some players that could slow down MJ were Joe Dumars, young Sprewell, Reggie Lewis. I see Dumars as the best candidate

Who do you put on Kobe? Maybe one of the guys that i didnt use for MJ, Tayshaun Prince comes to mind

But the problem wirh beating this team of 5, you can slow them down offensively. But it would still be very difficult to score more points then them

Wilt or Hakeem are both good options to go against Shaq, i dont see Pat Ewing and David Robinson as being as good of competition for Shaq

I wouldnt have Durant anywhere near the team, hes too mentally fragile. MJ would verbally ruin him

Edit

Dominique would be an even better matchup against Jordan, he use to put in work against the Bulls

Pippen - Magic
Dr J - Kobe
Dominique - MJ
Kawhi - Lebron
Hakeem - Shaq

Might be the team that would have the best chance

I think you're trying too hard thinking of one-on-one matchups rather than how they mesh as a team on both ends.

You're also stuck thinking historic stuff too much. MJ didn't have strong competition at his position in his day, no need to put up Dumars or Dominique against him. There are a lot more elite defensive two-guards in the league today who match MJ in size better than Dumars did AND stretch the floor better than him too. Put Klay or Kawhi there, they do everything Dumars would do in that matchup and then some.

Don't worry about Steph on Magic, first off teams put little point guards on Magic all the time and while he could score on them it wasn't like he was putting 40 on them on 70% shooting. Let's say Magic puts up 25 on Steph on just 18 shots. Well, what's Steph putting up on Magic then? But for my matchup it wouldn't matter, because I'd have Steph on Kobe and BEG Kobe to go all volume-shooting on me. No option on that team would be lower efficiency than midrange Kobe isos all day long.

"MJ would verbally ruin Durant" just sounds silly. When has that happened to Durant in a series ever?


I've been thinking about my team and I think there are 3-4 ways to beat the OP's team. Like I said from the beginning, the OP team just is going to have too many chemistry issues (MJ, Kobe, LeBron, and Shaq all as alpha scorers) and not enough three-point shooting. It leaves them vulnerable in multiple ways even though they have great scoring/distribution/defense overall.

Original team, which is the "balance" team. Great shooting, shot creation, distribution, perimeter defense, rim protection, everyone has their role balanced evenly.

Steph
Klay
Pippen
Durant
Hakeem



My second option which I also think would work, which would be the "shooting" team. You sacrifice a great second distributor like Scottie, but I don't think it would matter because Durant and Kawhi are still going to be solid 2nd and 3rd options. But this team would just shoot the lights out from three and still be elite defensively. Klay/Kawhi would take turns on MJ all game long, Klay/Kawhi/Durant would take turns on LeBron, and they'd work to force OP's team to run all the shots through Kobe and Shaq, once again baiting Kobe into isos and ball-stopping. Even if Kobe/Shaq shot 55-60% on twos, my team would happily trade 2s for 3s all game. This team would be especially interesting because it would pull Shaq out of the paint, keep Magic from getting comfortable on anyone (who the hell would Magic guard?), and force MJ/Kobe to run around chasing shooters for 24 seconds on every possession.

Steph
Klay
Kawhi
Durant
Marc Gasol