Better PG/PF combo: JKidd & KMart or CP3 & Blake

[ChriscoDash]

I can't lie the best PG/PF combo has to be Tony Parker and Tim Duncan.

 

[LV Koopa]

I can't lie the best PG/PF combo has to be Tony Parker and Tim Duncan.

Duncan is that dude but Parker is overrated as hell. He regularly gets torched in the playoffs since Day 1.

fukk outta here

 

[Texas2step]

Those Nets teams wouldn't even make the playoffs in the West today.

See you are operating on woulda coulda shoulda, I'm operating on facts. The has had the better team and still couldn't get done because of the lack of mental toughness. When you have the better team then it is up to your best players to seal the deal and they have failed time and time again. Not the case with the Nets, they just lost to waaay better teams

 

[Malta]

See you are operating on woulda coulda shoulda, I'm operating on facts. The has had the better team and still couldn't get done because of the lack of mental toughness. When you have the better team then it is up to your best players to seal the deal and they have failed time and time again. Not the case with the Nets, they just lost to waaay better teams

Those Nets teams were a biproduct of the incredibly weak east at the time, they were ass and Kidd/Martin aren't even remotely close to CP3/Blake.

 

[Texas2step]

Those Nets teams were a biproduct of the incredibly weak east at the time, they were ass and Kidd/Martin aren't even remotely close to CP3/Blake.

Again, they have lost when they had the better team aaaaand being up 3-1. There's no excuse for them not making it to the finals. I'll take the duo who has talent aaaaand the mental toughness to at least make the finals

 

[ManBearPig]

The Nets would've been a better team if Marbury stayed in NJ (instead of Kidd). Injuries fukked them in 2000.

And how good the Suns were after trading away Kidd for Stephon Marbury.


I'm starting to think you're retarded

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

And how good the Suns were after trading away Kidd for Stephon Marbury.


I'm starting to think you're retarded

Judging by your glance at the Suns record from when Kidd left/Marbury arrived, it seems you're the retarded one who can't provide any context. First you have clue as to what the cause was behind the improvement of the Nets in the early 2000s, now this. The Suns offense actually improved when they replaced Kidd with Marbury, however they lost one of their premier defenders, if not their best defender (Uncle Cliffy), Delk, and another solid defender yet older Elie, and their defense suffered (dropping from being arguably the best to middle of the pack) - that's why they had a drop off that season. Funnily enough the following season, they made the playoffs with Stephon leading the way, again still orchestrating a better offense from when Kidd left the team.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

Is he an all-time great PG? Yeah but that's mostly because he played in the league for nearly 20 seasons and benefited from playing during a certain period where the backdrop of the position was more traditional. If he began his career over the last few seasons he wouldn't be a top 5 PG in the league today because he wouldn't get away with dominating the ball in the fashion he did while putting up average scoring #s on horrific shooting percentages while orchestrating middle-of-the-pack offenses.

2001/02 Nets - 17th ranked offfense (Kidd averaged 37 minutes)
2002/03 Nets - 18th ranked offense (Kidd averaged 37 minutes)
2003/04 Nets - 25th ranked offense (Kidd averaged 36 minutes)
2004/05 Nets - 26th ranked offense (Kidd averaged 36 minutes)
2005/06 Nets - 25th ranked offense (Kidd averaged 37 minutes)
2006/07 Nets - 16th ranked offense (Kidd averaged 36 minutes)
2007/08 Nets - 25th ranked offense (Kidd averaged 36 minutes)

Every season he was in New Jersey dominating the ball, they had average to one of the worst offenses, season in season out - that's not the mark of a GREAT floor general - that's the mark of player whose suffocation on possessions and inability to be a reliable scorer and a threat as one (he averaged 14.4 points per game on 39.4% shooting during his seven-season stay in NJ) limited those Nets teams on what they could do offensively.

The success that team had was all down to their team defense and playing in the Eastern conference, during its weakest period.

And to follow on from that @GoddamnyamanProf, over those seven seasons in NJ, these were the points he produced per 100 possessions:

103 (ranked 40th amongst all point guards)
106 (ranked 28th amongst all point guards)
102 (ranked 32nd amongst all point guards)
107 (ranked 28th amongst all point guards)
110 (ranked 18th amongst all point guards)
111 (ranked 15th amongst all point guards)
101 (ranked 46th amongst all point guards)

So for all this 'floor general' rhetoric that's shrouded in nostalgia, the numbers he was producing were actually your typical run-of-the-mill PG, not this great, all-encompassing, visionary PG that he was made out to be.

94/95 - playing next to McCloud and Jackson - ended up with the 15th ranked offense
95/96 - relatively the same personnel - finished with the 19th ranked offense.
96/97 DAL - he only played 22 games - finished with the 28th ranked offense
96/97 PHO - he only played 33 games (started only 22), KJ was the one leading the team that season and they had the 6th ranked offense.
97/98 - Kidd took over starting duties, with relatively the same personnel and they ended with the 12th ranked offense (Nash had superior on-court points production than Kidd - propping up the points per 100 possessions - however, keep in mind it was mostly against second units)
98/99 - lockout season, 50 games, few extra changes to the personnel and they end up with the 4th ranked offense - no coincidence it was statistically Kidd's best shooting season.
99/00 - few extra personnel changes, most notably Penny, and they had the 12th ranked offense
00/01 - Penny was injured for pretty much the entire season, and they had the 22nd ranked offense

2001/02 Nets - 17th ranked offfense (Kidd averaged 37 minutes)
2002/03 Nets - 18th ranked offense (Kidd averaged 37 minutes)
2003/04 Nets - 25th ranked offense (Kidd averaged 36 minutes)
2004/05 Nets - 26th ranked offense (Kidd averaged 36 minutes)
2005/06 Nets - 25th ranked offense (Kidd averaged 37 minutes)
2006/07 Nets - 16th ranked offense (Kidd averaged 36 minutes)
2007/08 Nets - 25th ranked offense (Kidd averaged 36 minutes)

Across 14-15 seasons when Kidd was the leader of the team, he only orchestrated ONE top-10 offense. I can divide. That's one great offense every 14 season average and that's so....

I'm still waiting for at least one of the 44 posters that voted for Kidd/KMart to explain the above. @MJ Truth

 

[No Homo]

I'm still waiting for at least one of the 44 posters that voted for Kidd/KMart to explain the above. @MJ Truth

How about 2 straight finals >> blowing a 3-1 lead

 

[scog]

Rolling with J Kidd & Kmart. Easy choice in my opinion. Prime Kidd was the best pg in the game. Then & would be now..

 

[Roland Coltrane]

OK
Now apply the sa

But isn't Kidd this great floor general and PG? All I see is you giving excuses to a player whose reputation exceeds a role player's justification. If he makes teammates better, and plays to their strengths, why were they so poor offensively?

But one can blame him for them having an inefficient offense.

94/95 - playing next to McCloud and Jackson - ended up with the 15th ranked offense
95/96 - relatively the same personnel - finished with the 19th ranked offense.
96/97 DAL - he only played 22 games - finished with the 28th ranked offense
96/97 PHO - he only played 33 games (started only 22), KJ was the one leading the team that season and they had the 6th ranked offense.
97/98 - Kidd took over starting duties, with relatively the same personnel and they ended with the 12th ranked offense (Nash had superior on-court points production than Kidd - propping up the points per 100 possessions - however, keep in mind it was mostly against second units)
98/99 - lockout season, 50 games, few extra changes to the personnel and they end up with the 4th ranked offense - no coincidence it was statistically Kidd's best shooting season.
99/00 - few extra personnel changes, most notably Penny, and they had the 12th ranked offense
00/01 - Penny was injured for pretty much the entire season, and they had the 22nd ranked offense

2001/02 Nets - 17th ranked offfense (Kidd averaged 37 minutes)
2002/03 Nets - 18th ranked offense (Kidd averaged 37 minutes)
2003/04 Nets - 25th ranked offense (Kidd averaged 36 minutes)
2004/05 Nets - 26th ranked offense (Kidd averaged 36 minutes)
2005/06 Nets - 25th ranked offense (Kidd averaged 37 minutes)
2006/07 Nets - 16th ranked offense (Kidd averaged 36 minutes)
2007/08 Nets - 25th ranked offense (Kidd averaged 36 minutes)

Across 14-15 seasons when Kidd was the leader of the team, he only orchestrated ONE top-10 offense. I can divide. That's one great offense every 14 season average and that's so....

OK
Now apply the same rubric to every other pg people respect and revere

Something about all this seems fishy
But I understand it's the internet and you're gonna use whatever stats shyt your agenda

Coaches determine the identity of the team and style of play at the end of the day, not players

When it's all said and done Kidd's resume will still shyt in Lillard's


And yes, shyt like being a triple double machine>>>>>>>being an overrated chucker


The irony of you bringing up Kidd's percentages while Lillard's are just as basura(he just shoots more) is laughable

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

Now apply the same rubric to every other pg people respect and revere

Do you understand how team offensive efficiency works? Do you understand how Kidd's biggest weakness affects it?

Something about all this seems fishy
But I understand it's the internet and you're gonna use whatever stats shyt your agenda

Spoken like somebody who can't come to terms with the FACT that one of his childhood heroes isn't as good as he's made out to be.

Coaches determine the identity of the team and style of play at the end of the day, not players

Are you going to tell the whole story, or just parts that suit your agenda?

When it's all said and done Kidd's resume will still shyt in Lillard's

Well see now, this is the problem with dudes like you, the very fact you've already determined the outcome before it's even happened shows you can't view this shyt with any goddamn sense.

And yes, shyt like being a triple double machine>>>>>>>being an overrated chucker

I can play this game too. Being one of the best 3-pt shooters/best PG scorers > an overrated poor shooting, empty rebound/assist-getting PG.

The irony of you bringing up Kidd's percentages while Lillard's are just as basura(he just shoots more) is laughable

Lillard's PPS and production/percentages are superior to Kidd. I wouldn't expect you to know this since it doesn't seem like you actually look at statistical data.

 

[ManBearPig]

Rolling with J Kidd & Kmart. Easy choice in my opinion. Prime Kidd was the best pg in the game. Then & would be now..

I don't know about that.

Westbrook can Get triple doubles to and he's a far better scorer.

Curry is a flat out better player than Kidd ever was too and you have to be dumb to argue against that.

 

[Roland Coltrane]

Do you understand how team offensive efficiency works? Do you understand how Kidd's biggest weakness affects it?

Spoken like somebody who can't come to terms with the FACT that one of his childhood heroes isn't as good as he's made out to be.

Are you going to tell the whole story, or just parts that suit your agenda?

Well see now, this is the problem with dudes like you, the very fact you've already determined the outcome before it's even happened shows you can't view this shyt with any goddamn sense.

I can play this game too. Being one of the best 3-pt shooters/best PG scorers > an overrated poor shooting, empty rebound/assist-getting PG.

Lillard's PPS and production/percentages are superior to Kidd. I wouldn't expect you to know this since it doesn't seem like you actually look at statistical data.

I'm on my phone so I can't do as much


This shyt ain't over this breh

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

I'm on my phone so I can't do as much


This shyt ain't over this breh

So far you've brought no evidence to the table, in regards to what Kidd did on the court - only your nostalgic musings.