Biggie is/was the real blueprint for sellout/commercial rap that is still being made today

[H.J.Duck]

I mean... there's a reason why Biggie called out Nas on Kick In the Door...

Ain't no other kings in this rap thing
They siblings, nothing but my children
One shot they disappearin
It's ill when MC's used to be on cruddy shyt
Took home Ready to Die, listened, studied shyt
Now they on some money shyt, successful out the blue

 

[Professor Polo]

lol fukk these Coli posters... I swear to god you dweebs are getting worse and worse


fakkit ass thread

 

[SirBiatch]

Phonte from Little Brother and Foreign Exchange had a whole piece on how IWW (and Biggie too) started the entire commercial and underground split.

This was a blog from his Myspace

'The three albums that 'killed' hip-hop .....

Notice 'killed' is in quotation marks, 'cause the shyt is still obviously alive...but yeah.....here's my theory.....and this is not a dis against any of these records, as I am a fan of all three, but just a theory on the way these albums changed hip-hop forever...

The Three Albums That "Killed" Hip-Hop
by Dr. Tigallonious Wolfgang Flowers III, M.D. B.A., MS, PhD, BS, LLC

1.Nas- "It Was Written"
Columbia Records , 1996
Rating: @@@@

When compared to the lackluster albums that came later in his career ("I Am," "Nastradamus"

, "It Was Written" shines like a diamond. At the time of its release, however, "IWW" was viewed as a slightly disappointing follow-up to a classic LP that showed so much promise. Jigga was right. The people had spoken and voiced their collective opinions: "Ehhhh......"

To me, this is the album that is mostly responsible for the ridiculous "underground" v. "commericial" split in hip-hop. In the summer of '96 you had two artists, De La Soul and Nas, who up until that point had a credible following in the "underground." Whereas De La continued in their left-field tradition with "Stakes Is High," Nas pulled a 180 and dropped "IWW." The result? "IWW" sold 2 million copies, and other "underground" MC's followed suit, often with disastrous results.

It's not that "IWW" was a bad album, it was just an ugly foreshadowing of things to come. Although if you're gonna blame "IWW," its only fair to take a step back and place an even B.I.G.ger blame on the album that inspired it. Yep.....you guessed it......I'm talking about....

2. The Notorious B.I.G.- "Ready To Die"
Bad Boy/Arista Records, 1995
Rating: @@@@@

Although death is unquestionably the greatest promotional tool any artist could have, you'd be a fool to deny Biggie's place among the greats for fear of posthumously overrating him.

Dude had it all: charisma, intelligence, a knack for storytelling, and a melodious flow that is still imitated and mimicked to this day. (If there is any question as to whether or not Biggie has influenced any of today's MC's, just listen to ANY song from "Get Rich or Die Trying" and imagine Biggie doing the hook instead. Scary ain't it?)

In addition to his talents as an MC, Biggie also had Puffy behind the boards (or shyt, BESIDE the boards to let a Hitman tell it....). While Puff may not have been the traditional hands-on hip hop producer, homeboy understood one simple thing: how to make HIT ****ING RECORDS.

The thing that was so amazing about "RTD" was Biggie's ability to do a radio joint like "Juicy" or "One More Chance" without sounding forced or gimmicky. He could go from "Warning" to "Big Poppa" and not miss a step. His personality and charisma held it all together. Even Nas, for all his 80's loops and blatantly commercial aspirations on "IWW," simply could not compete with Biggie's natural charm as an MC. This was the simple fact that many MC's who unsuccessfully tried to duplicate "RTD's" formula (see: Mic Geronimo) failed to realize.

So Nas is making love songs, and Biggie is looping up disco. Where did the average head looking for some "true" hip-hop seek refuge? Even deeper "underground," of course.........

3. Company Flow- "Funcrusher Plus"
Official Recordings, 1997
Rating: @@@ anna half

The backpack generation is born.

I must admit that when I first heard "FP" I was alternately repulsed and amazed. The three-man team of El-P, Big Juss, and DJ Mr. Len made an album that was dirty, distorted, and "indy as fukk."

The thing I admired most about "FP," and many other El-P associated projects, was that it had BALLS:

"What'chu mean a sitar loop ain't hip-hop? fukkTHAT!!!!"
("Fire In Which You Burn"

"What'chu mean these horns in the hook are offbeat and mixed too loud?" fukk THAT!!!!!!"
("Krazy Kings"

This was not sweet, soulful music that you could play at your family reunion. This was music to piss your girlfriend off. Music to self-destruct to. And it worked.

With the release of "FP," Company Flow earned a cult following AND critical acclaim with 3.5 mics in the Source. Suddenly, a new breed of MC was born. Nerdy white boys had a place in hip hop. I can just imagine what must've been said at those A&R meetings:

"So you can't dance? Cool."

"You don't want to actually rhyme ON BEAT? No problem."

"You want to produce yourself even though you just bought an MPC, like, 2 weeks ago? Fabulous! You're UNDERGROUND, baby!!!!!"

Eventually, crews like Anticon, Rhymesayers, and even El-P's own Def Jux (RJD2 nonwithstanding....), came to symbolize "underground" hip-hop, or as most heads referred to it: "that backpacker shyt." As a result, cats like Mos Def, The Roots, and Talib Kweli were running to work with "commericial" acts like Jay-Z, Jadakiss, and Kanye West in an attempt to distance themselves from a movement in which they were unfairly lumped in.

The end result?

Hip-hop became even more polarized and the music, sadly enough on both sides of the spectrum, grew even wacker.

Great post. And ironically, the wackest album on here BY FAR is company flow's.

Backpack underground nerds (particularly of the cac variety) refuse to see how much they killed hip hop.

 

[Art Barr]

You can say MAY have, yet most of us know Big Hutch from ATL "gave" Dre his sound.

Before that Dre was on his electro disco music..

And where does The Bomb Squad have on Cubes direction..are you saying the Bomb Squad got their sonic influence from E Double as well?

How can you say that and epmd and nwa were featuring together in videos.
Bomb squad had a music history appreciation of style of making rap record.
Now, being misconstrued and used in house in all the in the box records.
They were not loop based, in the same vein that sermon was.
It is obvious you have some sort of disconnect as well.
As Erick sermon and everyone leaned on bomb squad based production styles period.
Yet, Erick sermon's funk and loop usage was not as diverse.
or encompassing of all music like the bomb squad was.

Great post. And ironically, the wackest album on here BY FAR is company flow's.

Backpack underground nerds (particularly of the cac variety) refuse to see how much they killed hip hop.

I have always said all this content indepthly.
way before anyone on the net, was putting it into print on Davey d.
Posting as auran dayspring close to twenty years ago, now.

Art Barr

 

[Art Barr]

Phonte from Little Brother and Foreign Exchange had a whole piece on how IWW (and Biggie too) started the entire commercial and underground split.

This was a blog from his Myspace

'The three albums that 'killed' hip-hop .....

Notice 'killed' is in quotation marks, 'cause the shyt is still obviously alive...but yeah.....here's my theory.....and this is not a dis against any of these records, as I am a fan of all three, but just a theory on the way these albums changed hip-hop forever...

The Three Albums That "Killed" Hip-Hop
by Dr. Tigallonious Wolfgang Flowers III, M.D. B.A., MS, PhD, BS, LLC

1.Nas- "It Was Written"
Columbia Records , 1996
Rating: @@@@

When compared to the lackluster albums that came later in his career ("I Am," "Nastradamus"

, "It Was Written" shines like a diamond. At the time of its release, however, "IWW" was viewed as a slightly disappointing follow-up to a classic LP that showed so much promise. Jigga was right. The people had spoken and voiced their collective opinions: "Ehhhh......"

To me, this is the album that is mostly responsible for the ridiculous "underground" v. "commericial" split in hip-hop. In the summer of '96 you had two artists, De La Soul and Nas, who up until that point had a credible following in the "underground." Whereas De La continued in their left-field tradition with "Stakes Is High," Nas pulled a 180 and dropped "IWW." The result? "IWW" sold 2 million copies, and other "underground" MC's followed suit, often with disastrous results.

It's not that "IWW" was a bad album, it was just an ugly foreshadowing of things to come. Although if you're gonna blame "IWW," its only fair to take a step back and place an even B.I.G.ger blame on the album that inspired it. Yep.....you guessed it......I'm talking about....

2. The Notorious B.I.G.- "Ready To Die"
Bad Boy/Arista Records, 1995
Rating: @@@@@

Although death is unquestionably the greatest promotional tool any artist could have, you'd be a fool to deny Biggie's place among the greats for fear of posthumously overrating him.

Dude had it all: charisma, intelligence, a knack for storytelling, and a melodious flow that is still imitated and mimicked to this day. (If there is any question as to whether or not Biggie has influenced any of today's MC's, just listen to ANY song from "Get Rich or Die Trying" and imagine Biggie doing the hook instead. Scary ain't it?)

In addition to his talents as an MC, Biggie also had Puffy behind the boards (or shyt, BESIDE the boards to let a Hitman tell it....). While Puff may not have been the traditional hands-on hip hop producer, homeboy understood one simple thing: how to make HIT ****ING RECORDS.

The thing that was so amazing about "RTD" was Biggie's ability to do a radio joint like "Juicy" or "One More Chance" without sounding forced or gimmicky. He could go from "Warning" to "Big Poppa" and not miss a step. His personality and charisma held it all together. Even Nas, for all his 80's loops and blatantly commercial aspirations on "IWW," simply could not compete with Biggie's natural charm as an MC. This was the simple fact that many MC's who unsuccessfully tried to duplicate "RTD's" formula (see: Mic Geronimo) failed to realize.

So Nas is making love songs, and Biggie is looping up disco. Where did the average head looking for some "true" hip-hop seek refuge? Even deeper "underground," of course.........

3. Company Flow- "Funcrusher Plus"
Official Recordings, 1997
Rating: @@@ anna half

The backpack generation is born.

I must admit that when I first heard "FP" I was alternately repulsed and amazed. The three-man team of El-P, Big Juss, and DJ Mr. Len made an album that was dirty, distorted, and "indy as fukk."

The thing I admired most about "FP," and many other El-P associated projects, was that it had BALLS:

"What'chu mean a sitar loop ain't hip-hop? fukkTHAT!!!!"
("Fire In Which You Burn"

"What'chu mean these horns in the hook are offbeat and mixed too loud?" fukk THAT!!!!!!"
("Krazy Kings"

This was not sweet, soulful music that you could play at your family reunion. This was music to piss your girlfriend off. Music to self-destruct to. And it worked.

With the release of "FP," Company Flow earned a cult following AND critical acclaim with 3.5 mics in the Source. Suddenly, a new breed of MC was born. Nerdy white boys had a place in hip hop. I can just imagine what must've been said at those A&R meetings:

"So you can't dance? Cool."

"You don't want to actually rhyme ON BEAT? No problem."

"You want to produce yourself even though you just bought an MPC, like, 2 weeks ago? Fabulous! You're UNDERGROUND, baby!!!!!"

Eventually, crews like Anticon, Rhymesayers, and even El-P's own Def Jux (RJD2 nonwithstanding....), came to symbolize "underground" hip-hop, or as most heads referred to it: "that backpacker shyt." As a result, cats like Mos Def, The Roots, and Talib Kweli were running to work with "commericial" acts like Jay-Z, Jadakiss, and Kanye West in an attempt to distance themselves from a movement in which they were unfairly lumped in.

The end result?

Hip-hop became even more polarized and the music, sadly enough on both sides of the spectrum, grew even wacker.

These are the actual points and welled in complete actual truth.
Plus, easily the similar albums, times and facts I point to.
Only albums I feel are missing.
Is, no way out and mase's debut album.
Which should both be included with rtd and lad as well.
As it was an entire wave of sentimentalism over those releases.
Plus, an increasing draw coupled together with pr, and the glass ceiling that was created for pac/big.
Plus, after their deaths.
the sentimental emotions used to continue the degradative cultural practices by bad boy.
Plus, the Pac clone war stans looking for another Pac after their loss.
Which created the rubrick of Pac being logged into the DNA.
Of every major label large drawing artist rewarded for taking kernels of pac's draw.
Masquerading and trying in vein.
To erroneously pass off a skill set that was not their own by BLATANTLY BITING!


Art Barr

 

[spliz]

Puff was part it for sure because he helped mold Biggie. Nas ain't have nothing to do with it. Ready To Die has a more blatantly commercial/crossover sound than IWW.

Been tellin nikkas this shyt for years.

 

[FeloniousMonk]

How can you say that and epmd and nwa were featuring together in videos.

Because Dre didnt transition into (g) funk mode until Hutch signed with Ruthless back in 89'..Dre was still on some Disco/R&B/Rock shyt.

Bomb squad had a music history appreciation of style of making rap record.
Now, being misconstrued and used in house in all the in the box records.
They were not loop based, in the same vein that sermon was.

You say MAY have influenced, why not just get a track from Sermon himself?

It is obvious you have some sort of disconnect as well.
As Erick sermon and everyone leaned on bomb squad based production styles period.
Yet, Erick sermon's funk and loop usage was not as diverse.
or encompassing of all music like the bomb squad was.

Disconnect?

No..different perspective..

2. Now you copping pleas for Eric's production skills..why..I dont know..

Which leads into Big Hutchs style of funk production more than likely influenced by his father Wille Hutch.

I am in no way denouncing Eric's influence and legacy, Im just countering points you mentioned.

I have always said all this content indepthly.
way before anyone on the net, was putting it into print on Davey d.
Posting as auran dayspring close to twenty years ago, now.

Art Barr

And I wholeheartedly agree with your posts..

Sometimes I just call it like I see it..

 

[Nomad1]

This is true. Artistically, Biggie and Puff ushered the shiny suit, pop-rap laced with "Don" and "violent" bars.

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Dawg, all funk is funk.

Funk is Funk but there are clear sub sounds within it

Get up off that thang by James brown and the breakdown is pretty much the basis for all pfunk records.
As, all pfunk originators point to jb breaks.

Cats in the Bronx where HipHOp started were not bboying/mcing over P-Funk and synth heavy Funk. While P-Funk did keep the On the One groove, the rest of the music sounded nothing like James Brown's core Funk sound.


Hip Hop And Funk.. Bay Area Style

Folks may recall how rappers brought artists like James Brown and Donald Byrd back into the forefront of Black music during the mid 80s when their music was freely sampled in every which way, shape and form by literally hordes of artists. Back then folks may recall the commonly expressed sentiment that many ascribed too.."
if it wasn't for the rap artists James Brown would be unknown to the younger generation
." And to a large degree there was a lot of truth in that statement, after all, at that time Black radio wasn't aggressively promoting a format in which they would highlight "classic" artists like Brown while maintaining their appeal to younger listeners... The result was many young white listeners being able tell you all about pop icons like the Beatles and Elvis while artists like Brown were relatively unknown to the young Black listener, at least until hip hop came along. It"s important to note all this because another facet about hip hop is that it allowed folks and still allows folks to build upon their musical past... The Brown sampling phenomenom in the mid-late 80s was the result of younger people reflecting their musical past. Most of the artist putting out records at this time were from New York and James Brown was not only an artist that mom and dad grooved to, but it was an artist that their older brothers and sisters grooved to in the late 70s when block parties were common place and hip hop was still in its embryo stages... The break beats that could be found within the grooves of James Brown records were the sounds that really set off these early hip hop jams.

So what does all this have to do with p-funk and its relationship to hip hop? Well one of the great things about hip hop is that it has always been an easily accessible form of expression with each participant being able to bring into the fold their own experiences and musical background So while brothers back east during the late 80s were building off their musical experiences involving James Brown and hip hop culture dating back to the late 70s, brothers out west who were just starting to release hip hop records were bringing a whole other set of musical experiences to the table.

Much of it centered around artists like George Clinton, Bootsy Collins George Duke and Roger & Zapp to name a few. Simply put, brothers out west brought p-funk to the hip hop round table. Now upon reading this there are a lot of folks who are immediately gonna reach back into time and point to the p-funk style hip hop music of EPMD, especially since they dropped the '88 classic tune "You Gots To Chill" which looped the now infamous "More Bounce To The Ounce" beat. Many rap fans consider this jam to be the first record to incorporate a p-funk. sample. In addition, these same rap fans may be quick to point out that cuts like "Knee Deep" and "More Bounce To The Ounce" were staple items in a b-boy's record crates. Back in the days, many a dj cut up these tracks while an emcee flowed. And while it's safe to say that Erik & Parrish earned their spot in the history books with "You Gots To Chill", they weren't the first to utilize music from the p-funk treasure chests... In addition, EPMD's usage didn't reflect the special relation and love the San Francisco / Oakland Bay Area had for funk.

Ricky Vincent better known as the Uhuru Maggot is a Bay Area music historian who earned his stripes during the 80s for his radio work on KALX, UC Berkeley's college station... and can now be heard every Friday on KPFA 94.1 FM... Vincent has not only chronolized funk music through his History Of Funk radio shows, but he has written his doctorate thesis on the genre..and has now just penned a book for St Martin's Press with an intro from George Clinton himself. This work will undoubtly be a definitive and comprehensive work on this facet of Black music... In a recent interview where Vincent was asked about the Bay Area's love for funk and its relationship to hip hop, he broke things down and explained that there has always been a deep seeded love affair with -funk ..He noted that George Clinton has always claimed there was something 'heavy' about the Bay Area funkateers.. Vincent noted that so involved was that relationship that Clinton recorded part of his live album "P-Funk Earth Tour" right here at the Oakland Coliseum.

This [The Bay Area] was probably the only place that he could capture that strong P-funk vibe If that wasn't enough, Oakland was city where the mothership first landed. This took place in 1976. For those who don't know the mothership was brought back into the forefront when Dr Dre landed it in his video 'Let Me Ride'. Vincent elaborated by noting that the landing of the mothership was a major turning point. It could be interpreted as the second coming of Christ. And furthermore, Vincent explained that there are many facets of the funk as prescribed by George Clinton that are based upon ancient African religion. It encouraged folks to move in a spiritual direction. In fact many of the songs Clinton performed were nothing more than modern day spirituals that were ripe with metaphors that held religious conotations. For example the song 'Flashlight' was really a gospel song which called upon the Lord to shine some light on the 'funk' [hard times] that Black people here in America were experiencing.
The Bay Area's Al Eaton, a veteran producer established himself by being Too Short's early producer. In addition Al had a hand in the production end back in the days for such well known Bay Area acts like Dangerous Dame, Rappin' 4 Tay and E-40 & The Click who were than just starting out their careers. Eaton expounded upon Vincent"s assessment by noting that while p-funk had a strong hold in the Bay Area it wasn't the only funk kickin' up dirt. "It wasn"t just p-funk, but it was the whole musician scene that put the Bay Area on the map, " Eaton noted. Groups like Tower Of Power, Cold Blood, Maze going all the way back to Sly Stone in the late 60s all had big names and helped shape the Bay Area music scene.
"There"s always been a funk thing going on in the Bay Area-It's always been funk base central. There's always been lots of musicians on the crest, who didn"t make it to the big time but yet had names around town." , Eaton pointed out. Funk bands like Johnny Talbert and the Thangs, 2 Things In One and Marvin Holmes and The Uptights were some of the funk bands that immediately came to mind.
Eaton pointed to several factors that may influenced the Bay Area to embrace the funk. First off, many of the musicians who played for these bands back in the late 60s now have kids who are now into hip hop. He also made it known that when he was coming up there was at least 2-3 bands on every block. "Each one was trying to get to the next level and hence it made for a very competitive situaution.", he noted.
Eaton's last reason for the Bay Area's embrace of funk focused on a famous movie entitled The Mack. "It seems like the all Bay Area rappers at one point or another were influenced by The Mack. " , Eaton said. The movie depicted lots of characters- real life players and pimps who many Bay Area artist have directly or indirectly tried to emulate try to emulate. Eaton went on to add that phrases like 'Player's Club' and 'Pimp Of The Year' which were borrowed by SF rapper Rappin' 4 Tay

and Oakland artist Dru Down reflected the raw gritty attitude street vibe often associated with funk. "Funk is here because its always been here", Eaton concluded, "And there's been a lot of musicians laying down the groundwork for years".
Eaton made mention of Sly Stone and spoke about how important he was in developing the funk scene here in the Bay Area... Vincent took it a step further by noting that artists like George Clinton were influenced by Stone who once upon a time ruled the city of Vallejo back in the late 60s-home of funky Bay Area artists like E-40, Potna Deuce, Khayree, Young Lay, Mac Dre and Mac Mall to name a few..Vincent gave Sly props for being the first musician to come out and dress in freaked out ostentatious outfits. This of course was later picked up and mimicked by Clinton and his p-funk mob.."Sly managed to package all the energy of James Brown while embracing the hippie vibe which was pervasive because of the summer of love among other things taking place about that time".

When speaking on the subject of funk and hip hop Bay Area style, no discussion would be complete without talking about the work of Shock G lead rapper and producer for Digital Underground. In late 1987 several months before EPMD hit with their track "You Got's To Chill" Digital Underground made a lot of noise with a hard hittin' song entitled 'Underwater Rimes'. Here Shock incorporated sampled riffs from the Parliament classic 'Aquaboogie' and cleverly weaved all sorts of p-funk like characters and elements into the song, including MC Blowfish. For the most folks it was hard to believe Clinton himself didn't have a hand in the production. Eventually Clinton did come aboard and lend a helpin hand in Digital's second lp 'Sons Of The P'. It was on this lp that Shock felt DU was a head of its time because of their liberal use of the moog synthesizer.. Nowadays artists like Snoop Dogg and Ice Cube have been on hit with songs that utilize this device to provide that buzzin' bassline...
Shock G pointed that funk was heavy all around the country except New York where he spent a lot of time growing up. He went on to explain that there were two things going on in New York City.."First of all, disco had taken off in a big way and hip hop was starting to become big among the younger people. The result of this activity was that New York missed out on the P-funk".

Shock explained that he made a deliberate attempt to bridge the gap between hip hop and p-funk. He noted that while a lot of his buddies in New York were true to the game with respect to hip hop however, they constantly fronted on George Clinton. Shock's exposure to funk came when he moved down to Florida to stay with his dad. Folks in his house and school were fanatical about p-funk. He began fusing hip hop with George's music out of necessity. "We would try and play some NY based underground break beats like 'Love Is The Message' or 'Dance To The Drummer's Beat' and it they would scare folks off the dance floor." He eventually won them over when he started cutting up p-funk songs...As Shock became engrossed with p-funk he found himself heading out west to the Bay Area because he had heard the vibe for p-funk was not only strong but supportive of the style of music he was trying to create. "One of the reasons I decided to move I to Oakland was because Oakland was putting p-funk on way back...and the vibe was strong..plus it was the only place in the country where they had a radio show dedicated to the funk". Shock of course was referring to the Uhuru Maggot's 'History Of Funk Show'.. Eventually Digital's first singles were dropped on the Uhuru Maggots Show . The first hip hop based show in which Shock dropped DU material was mine on the same station... KALX.
An interesting aspect that Shock brought to light was the fact that he felt that George Clinton was heavy on the Black side with both his concepts and lyrics... "George's music was unselfish and promoted brotherhood... It reminded people of Black festivities and celebrations". Shock also noted that George was very conscious and all about the upliftment of Black people. Originally Digital started off the same way.. In fact their original name was Spice Regime and they were attempting to experiment and become the Black Panthers of hip hop complete with barets and all that. Two things happened that forced DU to switch..One was the emergence of Public Enemy and their baret wearing S1Ws. The second was the overwhelming popularity of Humpty Dance and the character 'Humpty Hump' which force the group to momentarily move away from the conceptual p-funk style vibe that eventually emerged on their second lp 'Sons Of The P'.

Afrika Bambaataa

once noted that hip hop was the result of Black music radio not keeping funk alive in New York City... Author Nelson George confirmed that statement in his book the 'Death Of Rhythm & Blues' in which he spoke about Black radio stations diluting the music from the hood with some other stuff that was ultimately designed to appeal to a downtown, hipper, more affluential, [whiter audience] and not the young black and Puerto Rican audience that listened to a radio more than any other ethnic group. By the mid 70s Black music radio in New York wasn't kicking a lot of music across the airwaves that was hitting on point in other parts of the country.. In the late 70s I recall a whole lot of disco songs being played... Brothers from around the way were doing block parties and playing old James Brown, Sly Stone and break beats...while outside New York in places as close as New Haven Connecticutt, brothers were jamming to groups like Fat Larry's Band, The Barkays and Mass Production... For example, I recall hearing jams like 'Fire Cracker' by Mass Production outside the Big Apple, but never really hearing too much if at all within the city's five boroughs... Mean while in places like the Bay Area where hip hop had not really surfaced the grooves put out by these types of groups were the ' phat buttahs ' of the day.

Khayree, Al Eaton, Paris, Shock G and C-Funk are just a few of a long line of artist/producers who have helped keep the funk a strong force in the Bay Area and begin to influence the rest of the hip hop nation. There are still lots of others in these here parts that are making lots of noise with their new brand of funk including E-40 and The Click"s producer Studio Tone, Oakland rap dou/producers, Easki and CMT,

En Vogue producers Foster & McElroy, George Clinton colloborator and long time funkateer Dave Kaos and SF rap start JT The Bigga Figga. All have come to the hip hop roundtable with funk in their back pocket.
Funk is a Bay Area tradition, loved and embraced amongst a population which is only one or two generations removed from their southern roots. The Bay Area is also a music market place that has long encouraged folks to let themselves go and explore... It has encouraged folks to buck the trends and follow their own musical path. It is no coincidence that the first funk hip hop records have come from the Bay Area.
Props out to DJ Slice and Kool Rock J for samplin" Knee Deep in their 1986/87 classic "Slice It Up". Props to Hammer for incorporating the p-funk in his original version of his 1987 hit "They Put Me In The Mix". Props to Digital Underground for bringing the funk fully back on the scene with "Underwater Rimes". Also props to Dave Kaos cause back in the days.. he did a little cutting and scratchin on some of George Clinton"s records. Props to the die hard funkateers of the Bay Area like The Uhuru Maggot for documenting the funk and keeping the spirit alive . Keep in mind , while there are lots of acts that use funk in their music, in the Bay Area folks live and breath p-funk... from now until the end of time.

Hip Hop And Funk


NYC wasn't really on that type of Funk...

 

[IllmaticDelta]

I mean... there's a reason why Biggie called out Nas on Kick In the Door...

He did but Nas wasn't even on that fly/playa vibe. Nas was on the mafioso vibe on IWW and that album is less commercial in sound/lyrics than even Read To Die.

 

[Art Barr]

Funk is Funk but there are clear sub sounds within it




Cats in the Bronx where HipHOp started were not bboying/mcing over P-Funk and synth heavy Funk. While P-Funk did keep the On the One groove, the rest of the music sounded nothing like James Brown's core Funk sound.


Hip Hop And Funk.. Bay Area Style






Hip Hop And Funk


NYC wasn't really on that type of Funk...

Just you not knowing the cognitive connection and history shows you are wrong.
Just your shock g inclusion in this hurts you all the way from jump tok.
As shock is FROM QUEENS, AND IS NOT A WEST COAST ARTIST.

all of rap started as funk based and funk was not just a regional based drawing music.
Regardless of how many west coast people want to claim it after the fact, period.
Again, all pfunk is derived from jb's.
Not to mention, the break exclusively on get up off that thang.
So, even trying to discredit and move the goal posts.
in your favor of what can easily be seen as Mecca envy.
Which is shortsighted in this piece.
As shock g, originally was the first to garner massive drawing power from pfunk way before any of the other producers you noted.
Including dre, to ATL.
As you try to move the goalposts to give singular props after the fact.
You are trying to say what is debunked in rap, and music history by just sheer cultural fact

Then trying to use prison economy based pr in favor of a coastal bias to give credence.
When, it easily is dismissed by fact.
Plus, the fact Erick sermon as an arranger and producer was definitely iller than the loop based atl, or dre's pfunk submissions.
Not to mention, none of them were that far ahead of sermon sonically as a far as clarity is concerned.

Plus to this day i still have not heard anyone use pfunk in bulk better than Erick sermon.
Plus, his use of p.funk samples were far and away more iller and more advanced way before ATL was even known.
For dre, to use their style of production as his next largest drawing direction/venture.
By the second album of epmd, Erick sermon was distancing himself from anyone who would use pfunk in rap.
That goes for atl, jinx and even dre or Quik.
We could pull out the records and go by timeline and compare the records and what had a larger cultural impact with bboys.
Way before the commercial rap fan was even marketed rap.
via positive pr that dre garnered sonically for his later ruthless and dr releases that were pfunk influenced mainly.
We can go timeline record for record and factually, i can dispute it through facts and actual quality of production as well.
As real talk, dre nor ATL could actually program pfunk as well as Erick sermon.
Along with nobody in rap history could see sermon skillwise using that medium.

Especially, the westcoast which may have had sales but that was always attributed.
to the gateway direction of the prison economy system and not real cultural permeation in the actual culture of hip hop.
As by the actual time that dre moved into pfunk.
Are, was already culturally ousted and did not get credible cultural resonance.
till Eminem'a cultural draw healed dre culturally.
Taking hi. from sellout limbo after death row and aftermath presents.


Art Barr

We can do the dance on Erick sermon vs dre
being the best actual funk producer in rap history and i know i will win, easily.
Plus, sermon is better than ATL, dre and quik as well.

Over mediums from samples to even 808's.

As sermon's use of all these mediums trumps and also skill wise. eclipsed atl/quilk/dre before they were ever relevent, in any manner culturally or sales wise.

 

[IllmaticDelta]

How and all of rap started as funk based and funk was not just a regional based drawing music.
Again, all pfunk is derived from jb's.
Not to mention, the break on get up off that thang.
So, even trying to discredit and move the goal posts in your favor of what can easily be seen as Mecca envy.
As you try to move the goalposts to give singular props after the fact.
You are trying to say what is debunked in rap by just sheer cultural fac.

JB's are the foundation but not all Funk outside the groove sounds like the JB's.








^East Coast HipHopers were not on that type of Funk. They were into this...

 

[Mike the Executioner]

I never got the whole "Rapper A is responsible for this, that, and the third" thing.

That's why hip hop has declined the way it has. Overall creativity slowly started being phased out for mainstream success. One guy does well with a certain style or sound, so everyone follows his lead and when they all fail, Rapper A is blamed for it. It used to be a case of "You're doing that thing, so let me do this thing." Now it's just "I want to do your thing." Biggie had his own formula that he made work, and it's not coincidental that other rappers couldn't make it work because they were just trying to replicate him.

The argument that IWW is not as mainstream as RTD doesn't register with me either. For the majority of Ready to Die, Biggie is just spitting over hardcore gangsta tracks ("Things Done Changed," "Gimme the Loot," "Machine Gun Funk," "Warning," "Everyday Struggle"). The radio hits everybody knows about are much less than the street songs, and that was entirely Puffy's doing. By contrast, you had the Trackmasters hooking up Nas with several tracks, and a lot of them sound absolutely nothing like Illmatic. What did Nas have? "The Message," "Street Dreams," "If I Ruled the World," "Watch Dem nikkas," "Nas is Coming," "Black Girl Lost," "Affirmative Action." There was a CONSCIOUS effort to appeal to the average consumer.

 

[IllmaticDelta]

The argument that IWW is not as mainstream as RTD doesn't register with me either. For the majority of Ready to Die, Biggie is just spitting over hardcore gangsta tracks ("Things Done Changed," "Gimme the Loot," "Machine Gun Funk," "Warning," "Everyday Struggle"). The radio hits everybody knows about are much less than the street songs, and that was entirely Puffy's doing. By contrast, you had the Trackmasters hooking up Nas with several tracks, and a lot of them sound absolutely nothing like Illmatic. What did Nas have? "The Message," "Street Dreams," "If I Ruled the World," "Watch Dem nikkas," "Nas is Coming," "Black Girl Lost," "Affirmative Action." There was a CONSCIOUS effort to appeal to the average consumer.

The most commercial song on IWW was "If I Ruled The World" and that's only because of the hook/lauryn. The lyrics/content aren't commercial in any way. "Juicy" was more commercial sounding than "Street Dreams".

 

[Mike the Executioner]

The most commercial song on IWW was "If I Ruled The World" and that's only because of the hook/lauryn. The lyrics/content aren't commercial in any way. "Juicy" was more commercial sounding than "Street Dreams".

"Street Dreams" interpolated an Eurythmics song for the hook.......which Nas himself sung for some reason. Anybody could relate to "Juicy" and how if you believe in yourself, you can make something out of nothing. It was Nas himself who saw Biggie at the Source Awards and realized this was what he needed to be to gain any commercial success.

It Was Written was a great album, but it ended up being the root cause of Nas' identity crisis for his next few LPs.