BREXIT - June 23rd 2016 vote - *ARTICLE 50 TRIGGERED!*

BaggerofTea

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I agree. Some people (globalists/the intolerant left) have a vision for the world though. Anything that happens that contradicts that vision is given a label to combat it, like "xenophobia".

People kept making an economic argument as to why Brexit was stupid and how leave voters were stupid. I think in the end self determination/having your own unique culture and people > economy to a lot of people though. :manny:

I think that's a reason why polls showed the voters no longer trusted "the experts." The experts are number crunchers who claimed Brexit would hurt the economy. We'll see if they end up right but regardless they never saw the human cultrural side of things.
:mjlol: Aren't you a capitalist?

The contradictions capitalists have with themselves :russ:

Complain about globalism yet believe in an economic system dependent on globalism brehs :wow:
 

Scoop

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:mjlol: Aren't you a capitalist?

The contradictions capitalists have with themselves :russ:

Complain about globalism yet believe in an economic system dependent on globalism brehs :wow:

Narrowing anyone's viewpoint down to one word is always over simplifying.

I generally believe in free markets within my country, I also believe in everyone having equal opportunity to reap the rewards of that free market. Hence investing more in education and mass transportation. On the flip side I believe in reducing the social safety net/welfare.

I don't think completely free trade should be allowed globally just so the rich in my country can bypass putting our people to wrok just to get cheaper labor elsewhere.

Trade is fine but before the rich and mobile go out in the world to exploit other country's poor people and bring goods back here to sell I want to make sure people here are ok first.
 
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Trajan

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There's plenty of people running for PM including Michael Gove who along with Boris was the most prominent LEAVE person.

Boris was being criticized during the campaign for only doing this to become PM. He proved them wrong but apparently it was a lose-lose for him if people are now going to criticize him for NOT taking power too.

He wanted the PM job when it was a strong UK in the EU. Lol not this shyt. Boris did not think Leave was going to win. He just wanted to shake down his childhood rival Cameron :to:

No one wants to trigger art 50. He wrote an article a few days ago saying Britain would still have access to the single market. Then Frau Merkel rebuffed him yesterday saying ''no cherry-picking''. Leavers then asked for informal negotiations before triggering art 50...again the EU said nein/non! So essentially the new leader would be in an incredibly weak negotiating position where you have a fast ticking clock to conclude deals. In the meantime businesses may be relocating...Scotland may be asking for a referendum etc

There are two possible outcomes when art 50 is triggered:

1 - Tumble out of the EU with no/very shytty deal and rely on WTO rules which means UK may as well be India with the tariffs we would be subject to. The severe economic fallout means the electorate would not be very happy with this. They were promised access to the single market or a very good deal.

2- Quickly conclude a deal similar to Norway and be a part of the EEA...access to the single market, but accept freedom of labour and good. i.e back to square one but pay more money and no representation in the rule making. The electorate would not be very happy with the this either.

So overall no one wanted that PM seat :huhldup:. It is an impossible job and Boris knows this. People are going to want his head down the line.

Well logically, you're at the front of the Brexit campaign, the guy you was campaigning against resigns, so yeah, politically he should take his responsibilities and govern the country he wanted out, and yes precisely because he is more well known. Legally he doesn't HAVE to do obviously, but I can't see how this could be seen as anything else than him admiting he had no clue what to do/is too scared to move a step up.

It's easy to criticize from the sidelines.

Well at least I guess Farage will be running? :dead:

Some are saying Michael Gove running is a slick ploy to take them both out. Gove has never been seen as a PM contender...Boris drops out because of his Leave colleague....Gove then loses to Theresa May who has to clean up the shyt while they lay low :lolbron:
 

Trajan

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This is a very interesting comment from the guardian on the day after the vote. It may have been posted already:


If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.

Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.

With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.

How?

Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.

And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.

The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.

The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?

Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?

Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated.

If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.

The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was “never”. When Michael Gove went on and on about “informal negotiations” ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.

All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.
 
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BaggerofTea

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Narrowing anyone's viewpoint down to one word is always over simplifying.

I generally believe in free markets within my country, I also believe in everyone having equal opportunity to reap the rewards of that free market. Hence investing more in education and mass transportation. On the flip side I believe in reducing the social safety net/welfare.

I don't think completely free trade should be allowed globally just so the rich in my country can bypass putting our people just to get cheaper labor elsewhere.

Trade is fine but before the rich and mobile go out in the world to exploit other country's poor people and bring good back here to sell I want to make sure people here are ok first.

:ohhh: a social democrat on the coli? How come you weren't standing for Bernie?
 

Scoop

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:ohhh: a social democrat on the coli? How come you weren't standing for Bernie?

Cause I don't believe in higher taxes and redistribution solely for the sake of redistribution. I believe that people that don't do shyt should fail. I believe in changing the system so if you do fail, it's actually you're fault as opposed to the system having been rigged against you the whole time.

I believe in a social springboard economy as oppose to a safety net economy. Hence why I trade the welfare state for things like education and mass transport that are actually pro-growth. Tariffs would be used as an adjustable lever used to protect local culturally important industries and also to employ those who fail out of the education system or aren't cut out for a service/office/professional job. Ideally we would take money out of the welfare state 1-1 and put it in my springboard state until the springboard state was fully functional.

:manny:
 

theworldismine13

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that was point of the mini discussion me and the taxman were having so there is no so what. you're bringing in NAU examples when it's not even real or relevant to what me and him were talking about. read what he posted and then my response to him. i wanted an example of a self destructive action that americans could take via direct vote if we're even allowed to be so stupid. voting to leave the NAU isn't an example on my radar because that shyt isn't even real and we'd have to be in it to want out.

it doesnt matter if NAU is real or not, the point is its the same exact issues, the fundamental question of the EU or similar multinational organizations or a fictional NAU is are you willing to give up your sovereignty to a commission

and in the case of the EU its even deeper, its are you willing to give up your identity as british and have get a new identity as a european

its a complete legitimate argument to say that remaining will lead to the end of the british identity, which may be good or bad, but its something that has no stupid or smart answer, its a personal question that every voter has to decide for themselves, its a matter of self determination

if the british dont want to be european they shouldn't be forced to
 

BaggerofTea

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Cause I don't believe in higher taxes and redistribution solely for the sake of redistribution. I believe that people that don't do shyt should fail. I believe in changing the system so if you do fail, it's actually you're fault as opposed to the system having been rigged against you the whole time.

I believe in a social springboard economy as oppose to a safety net economy. Hence why I trade the welfare state for things like education and mass transport that are actually pro-growth. Tariffs would be used as an adjustable lever used to protect local culturally important industries and also to employ those who fail out of the education system or aren't cut out for a service/office/professional job. Ideally we would take money out of the welfare state 1-1 and put it in my springboard state until the springboard state was fully functional.

:manny:


:ehh: you sound like a socialist
 

Scoop

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A very British betrayal
How the Brexit ‘dream ticket’ fell apart.

By
TOM MCTAGUE
and
ALEX SPENCE

6/30/16, 11:25 PM CET

GettyImages-542742360-1160x756.jpg

Gove’s decision to withdraw from the “dream ticket” with Boris Johnson and stand for the leadership himself was surprising | Stefan Rousseau - WPA Pool/Getty Images

  • LONDON — It was just after 8:30 a.m. when Michael Gove’s “treachery” began to filter through.

Boris Johnson’s closest allies had gathered in a small office off Horseferry Road in central London, near the Grey Coat Hospital school where David Cameron andGove, the justice secretary, send their children. The office had only just been rented as Johnson’s leadership campaign headquarters.


Johnson, the former mayor of London and the man who led Britain out of Europe, was set to announce his campaign to become prime minister just around the corner at Westminster’s St Ermin’s Hotel at 11:30 a.m.

It should have been a triumphant occasion, another step to Johnson’s coronation at the pinnacle of British politics.

Johnson’s withdrawal from the race leaves Home Secretary Theresa May as the clear frontrunner.

Instead, Johnson’s advisers realized that their boss had been knifed by the man who was supposed to lead his leadership bid.

After a week that has turned British politics inside out, Westminster insiders thought there was nothing left to surprise them. Gove’s decision to withdraw from the “dream ticket” and stand for the leadership himself was stunning. What came next was even more dramatic: at 11:53 a.m, seven minutes before the cut-off to enter the Tory leadership race, Johnson pulled out.

Days after the Conservative Party lost its leader, humiliated by a referendum defeat masterminded by his old friends, the party had lost arguably its brightest star.

Johnson’s withdrawal from the race leaves Home Secretary Theresa May as the clear frontrunner.


GettyImages-543773218-714x476.jpg

Theresa May launched her bid for the Conservative Party leadership | Jeff J Mitchell/Getty Images

It also makes divorce from Brussels inevitable. Feint hopes that Britain under a Johnson premiership could negotiate a “Brexit light” deal with the EU have been extinguished.

The remaining candidates — May, Gove, Andrea Leadsom, Liam Fox and Stephen Crabb – have all committed themselves to full Brexit with controls on free movement of people.

MPs, political aides and journalists, frazzled and sleep-deprived after days of turmoil, scrambled to get to the bottom of Gove’s startling betrayal. Suspicions fell on the role of Rupert Murdoch, whose Sun newspaper campaigned aggressively for Brexit. Days earlier, the media mogul told a conference of business leaders in London: “I’d be happy for Michael Gove to get it.”

Cracks in Johnson and Gove’s relationship appeared Wednesday when an email to Gove from his wife Sarah Vine was leaked to Sky News. In the message, Vine, a Daily Mail columnist, urged her husband to play hardball with Johnson, and to withdraw support unless he received specific assurances about his plans. “Do not concede your ground,” she wrote. “Be your stubborn best.”

Vine’s influence over her husband’s thinking has been “significant,” said a journalist who has known the couple for years.

Party members wouldn’t back Johnson without Gove alongside him, Vine said, and nor would Murdoch or Paul Dacre, editor of the Daily Mail, another powerful, pro-Brexit tabloid.

That the support of Murdoch and Dacre figured so prominently in the Goves’ thinking sparked alarm among media-watchers who have long argued that the tabloids have too much influence over British politics.

Support ebbed away
When Johnson’s team gathered on Thursday morning Gove was still onside.

The previous night Gove and Johnson had attended the Conservative’s Summer Ball together at the exclusive Hurlingham Club in Fulham, West London, and then later went on the Tories’ 1922 party.

At the meeting Thursday, Lynton Crosby and Mark Fullbrook, the Australian campaign gurus, were joined by Johnson’s communications chief Will Walden, long-term ally Ben Wallace and a handful of other MPs backing his leadership bid.

When Gove’s decision came through the room was stunned.

“The surprise was genuine,” according to one person in the room. “The Boris ultras were shocked and really angry. Everything was thrown into the air. We were all trying to work out what the numbers were and whether Boris was going to make it into the final two.”

Over the next two hours, Johnson’s team frantically hit the phones trying to get hold of MPs who had previously pledged support.

“He’s given the dagger back to Michael” — Johnson ally

By 11:20 a.m. it was clear that allies had drifted away and he was in danger of failing to make it to the final run-off.

“Suddenly people weren’t answering their phones or had turned them off. Others were starting to go lukewarm. The momentum was all going the wrong way.”

Johnson, who was not at the office, made his final decision minutes before leaving for his campaign launch after taking soundings from his closest advisers.

“It was late in the day — it was certainly agonized over,” the Johnson ally said. “There were some people who wanted to fight on. But the worry was that Boris would not have prospered as much as he wanted. He would’ve been diminished in the process. He was trying to bring unity but carrying on would’ve been divisive.”

“It was a bloody brave thing to do. The easy thing would’ve been to carry on and then pull out over the weekend. In the full glare of the world, he stood down.”

The ally said that in doing so, he had damaged Gove “fatally,” by ensuring voters knew who was to blame: “He’s given the dagger back to Michael.”

“I don’t think he [Gove] thought Boris would pull out. When you think about it, what Boris has done is quite clever. He’s chosen not to run in a leadership election that he didn’t want to happen this soon. I thought it was a noble thing to have done.”

“Michael runs the risk of looking treacherous, I think that will stick.”

A European faultline
The Johnson ally said Gove pulled his support because he did not think the former London mayor committed himself to the Leave campaign or to fully pulling Britain out of the EU.

“Michael had a genuine wobble and decided to pull his support. They didn’t think Boris was focusing enough and in the end, he just couldn’t do it.”

On Europe, the source said, “Boris’s instincts were to get a compromise.”

But this was unacceptable to Gove and his ally Dominic Cummings, who had led the Brexit campaign Vote Leave. “The hand of Cummings is all over this. Boris considering EEA [membership of the European Economic Area] and budget contributions was not acceptable to them,” the source said. “He didn’t display enough clarity for them. Michael is much more ultra on Europe than Boris ever was.”

In his first interview after declaring his intention to stand, Gove suggested Johnson was not committed to leaving the EU. “After the referendum result last week I felt we needed someone to lead this country who believed heart and soul in leaving the European Union,” Gove told the BBC.

Doubts about whether a Johnson-led government would follow through on Brexit, or try to find a compromise, intensified after Johnson’s weekly column appeared in the Daily Telegraph on Monday.

The fury and sense of personal betrayal at Gove is intense.

He appeared to be trying to reassure all sides that there was no reason for panic. In doing so, his views on what should happen next seemed confused, contradictory, unachievable. Many Leavers worried that he was minimizing the need for immigration controls, which they regard as a red-line issue. It gave fuel to those who believed that Johnson had never really believed in quitting the EU in the first place.

Johnson’s allies pointed out that Gove had seen the column, suggested changes and approved it before it was published. On Thursday night ITV’s political editor Robert Peston obtained an email from Gove to Johnson, sent just after 6 p.m. on Sunday, suggesting amendments to the column. Gove’s verdict: “Overall very very good.”

Worse than the Telegraph column, a long-time Johnson supporter said, was the former mayor’s disappearance after the Brexit result. Johnson should have appeared in public immediately surrounded by “ordinary people,” this source said. As leader of the Leave campaign, he should have sought to calm anxieties. Instead, he gave one somber press conference with Gove a few hours after Cameron resigned, and spent the weekend out of sight.

“The moment was there to be seized,” the Johnson supporter said. “Instead, he went into hibernation and allowed other people to fill in the gaps.”

Adding to the shadowy role of media moguls in the back-room drama was the presence of Evgeny Lebedev, the owner of London’s Evening Standard and Independent, among Johnson’s entourage on Sunday, according to a source close to Johnson. Lebedev knew Johnson from his days as mayor of London and had regularly hosted him at his villa in Umbria, in Italy.

In a curious twist, Lebedev had also been present at Johnson’s house in February, when Johnson, Gove, and their wives decided over drinks that the two politicians would turn on their friend Cameron and front the Leave campaign, according to Vine’s column in the Daily Mail.

Gove alerted friends about his decision to run late Wednesday night. One member of Gove’s campaign received a call at 1 a.m. Thursday morning to be told he was needed to run Gove’s campaign.

The fury and sense of personal betrayal at Gove is intense.

The justice secretary had insisted repeatedly — including in a live TV appearance during the referendum campaign — that he did not want to become prime minister. However, privately he has not ruled it out, said a friend of the Goves. “It’s not that he’s suddenly decided.”

At Johnson’s press conference one Tory MP pointed the finger at George Osborne, who has a reputation for Westminster scheming. “The Chancellor’s fingerprints are all over this,” he said.

The MP Nadine Dorries, who had sat in the front row of Johnson’s press conference, had a blazing row with Gove in the Commons Thursday afternoon, according to one MP.

Cameron, meanwhile, was seen in parliament’s Members’ tea room looking “happy and relaxed.”

A very British betrayal
 

Scoop

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Theresa May launches Tory leadership bid with pledge to unite country

Home secretary vows to make sure Britain leaves EU, saying there must be no attempts to ‘remain through the back door’

Theresa May launches Conservative leadership bid: ‘Brexit means Brexit’
Jessica Elgot and Rowena Mason

Thursday 30 June 2016 14.18 EDTLast modified on Thursday 30 June 201617.00 EDT
Theresa May has launched her bid for the Conservative leadership, pledging that “Brexit means Brexit” and that there would be no general election before 2020.

The home secretary, who campaigned to remain in the EU, positioned herself as the candidate of stability and experience.

Asked for her pitch, she said: “I’m Theresa May and I’m the best person to be prime minister.”

The event was electrified by Michael Gove’s surprise announcement just minutes before she stood up that he would run for the leadership because, he said, Boris Johnson was not a suitable candidate.

Bookmakers were making May the favourite, followed by Gove, even before Johnson dramatically announced later in the morning, after she had made her speech, that he was not going to stand.

At the May leadership announcement event, most MPs thought her speech had worked against Johnson and in her favour by splitting the vote among leave supporters. But Gove is also extremely popular among the Conservative grassroots, so could prove fatal to her campaign if the pair become the final two on the shortlist.

While a string of MPs were defecting from Johnson’s camp to Gove, those loyal to May were making frantic plans to check that all her supporters were still backing her bid.

During her speech, May positioned herself as a candidate to unify the party after a divisive referendum and someone to appeal to the whole country, not a privileged few.

She attempted to woo leave voters by signing up Chris Grayling, a prominent leave campaigner, to chair her campaign and pledging to create a department to negotiate the UK leaving the EU.

After the meeting, other prominent Conservatives signed up to support her. Jeremy Hunt, the health secretary, declared his support after having considered a bid himself.

He said: “I have decided that now is not the right time for me to run for the leadership – though I remain completely committed to ensuring we secure our position as a great trading nation with sensible controls on migration. I believe that Theresa May has the strength, judgment and values to deliver those things. She is the right choice to lead Britain in a challenging period and will make a truly outstanding prime minister.”

May also promised categorically that Britain would leave the EU, with no attempts to “remain through the back door”.

“The country voted to leave the European Union, and it is the duty of the government and of parliament to make sure we do just that,” she said.

She also ruled out an early general election if she was leader and said there would be a normal autumn statement and no emergency budget. No decision to invoke article 50 should be made until the British negotiating strategy was agreed, she said, which means not before the end of this year.

May praised David Cameron for reforming the Conservatives and the country, but twice undermined promises made by George Osborne, the chancellor, on the economy.

She said there would be no “emergency budget” to deal with the consequences of Brexit and promised that a Conservative government under May would no longer seek to reach a budget surplus by the end of the parliament, to avoid tax increases that might disrupt investment.

At the same time, she reached out to the liberal wing of the Conservative party by scrapping her claim that the UK should withdraw from the European convention on human rights. She said she recognised there was not a majority in the House of Commons for withdrawing and so she would not be pursuing that.

On top of that, she included a passage about social mobility and fighting “burning injustices” that led to inequality.

“If you’re from an ordinary working-class family, life is just much harder than many people in politics realise. You have a job, but you don’t always have job security. You have your own home, but you worry about mortgage rates going up. You can just about manage, but you worry about the cost of living and the quality of the local school.

“Frankly, not everybody in Westminster understands what it’s like to live like this, and some need to be told that what the government does isn’t a game. It’s a serious business that has real consequences for people’s lives.”
Some have been sceptical about May as a candidate because she is not known as a media personality. She addressed this by saying she was not showy: “I don’t gossip about people over lunch. I don’t go drinking in parliament’s bars. I don’t often wear my heart on my sleeve. I just get on with the job in front of me.”

However, she did attempt at least one joke at the expense of Johnson, saying the last time he negotiated with the Germans “he came back with three nearly new water cannon”.

In another dig at Johnson, she said any attempt to wriggle out of commitments on reducing immigration would be unacceptable, “especially from leadership candidates who campaigned to leave the EU by focusing on immigration”.

May was pressed several times about her own record on immigration given her failure to reduce it to the tens of thousands as promised by the Conservative manifesto.

She said there would have to be controls on freedom of movement but there would be “no silver bullet” on reducing immigration and it was wrong to suggest that leaving the EU would stop the flow of people into the UK altogether.

Theresa May launches Tory leadership bid with pledge to unite country
 
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