Celtics 6th in Iso possessions this year, 28th last year

Remote

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Except he didn't because they show that he isn't really watching Celtics games on the regular, and when I tried to reiterate to him that Kyrie has decreased his ISOs by 30% from last season, despite dealing with more offensive responsibility, he says he's just the same ole Kyrie and he hasn't changed.

:merchant:

Can you please explain to me how you came to this conclusion when I've been one of a very few posters on this board who has been breaking down and praising his game before he even got into the league. I have NEVER, EVER tried to marginalize Kyrie's game, at any point. What led you to believe I marginalized his impact in the '15 Finals in the first place?

Yeah, see, this is why I don't fukk with you. @jaguar paw would be able to tell you I've been "describing him as great" long before LeBron even returned to Cleveland. I don't mind if you disagree with me, but to blatantly make up lies to push whatever agenda you have against me is fukk shyt.

:francis:
I’m pretty sure you have stated or intimated that the Warriors would have beaten the Cavs in 2015 even if they had Kyrie and Love. A series carried to 6 by Lebron and some ragamuffins. If that isn’t diminishing his impact, well...

You remind me of a joke I once saw in one of Jon Stewart’s comedy books in the mid 2000s.

(Humor in the Middle East)
A: Knock knock....
B: No. It is you that is wrong.

:skip:
 
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I’m pretty sure you have stated or intimated that the Warriors would have beaten the Cavs in 2015 even if they had Kyrie and Love.
Let's just say that's true for argument's sake, how does that mean I marginalized Kyrie's impact?
IA series carried to 6 by Lebron and some ragamuffins. If that isn’t diminishing his impact, well...
First of all, the series would've played out differently. It wouldn't have been the slow-paced, defensive-orientated series for a start, well, certainly not to the same degree (which played into the Cavs' favor). The officiating would've been different, as the Cavs were allowed to get away with more physicality because they were undermanned and it went in stride with the style of their personnel - particularly Delly.

The Warriors role players were missing open shots in the first three games, due to Cleveland forcing the ball outta Curry's hands and making his support cast beat them. The moment they started making those open shots, the series was essentially over, because that's all it took.

I have a question for you, why are you so intent on underrating/undermining the success of the Warriors team and their abilities, and propping up LeBron in an unequal measure? What's in it for you, since you're supposedly a Spurs fan?

:jbhmm:
 

Remote

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Let's just say that's true for argument's sake, how does that mean I marginalized Kyrie's impact?

First of all, the series would've played out differently. It wouldn't have been the slow-paced, defensive-orientated series for a start, well, certainly not to the same degree (which played into the Cavs' favor). The officiating would've been different, as the Cavs were allowed to get away with more physicality because they were undermanned and it went in stride with the style of their personnel - particularly Delly.

The Warriors role players were missing open shots in the first three games, due to Cleveland forcing the ball outta Curry's hands and making his support cast beat them. The moment they started making those open shots, the series was essentially over, because that's all it took.

I have a question for you, why are you so intent on underrating/undermining the success of the Warriors team and their abilities, and propping up LeBron in an unequal measure? What's in it for you, since you're supposedly a Spurs fan?

:jbhmm:
3 years later and you are still, STILL, pretending you don’t see how a team’s 2nd and 3rd best players would affect the outcome of a series that went 6 games.

This is some Fox News level spin.

And I am a Spurs fan. It’s quite clear. I just happen to recognize Lebron’s greatness and I think he is being treated a bit unfairly. Particularly by people like you.

Candidly, nobody even knows who you root for.

As best I can tell you are merely a frontrunning bandwagon fan, and a Lebron hater.

Until you declare a team, you don’t need to worry who I root for anyway.

:coffee:
 
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3 years later and you are still, STILL, pretending you don’t see how a team’s 2nd and 3rd best players would affect the outcome of a series that went 6 games.

This is some Fox News level spin.
I'm not pretending to not see anything. I've already acknowledged that the series wouldn't have played out the same. Yet there's absolutely no cause to suggest the Cavs would've won had they had Kyrie/Love, because we never got to see them play against the Warriors in their respective forms at that time. If the Cavs went up 3-1 for instance, and Kyrie and Love got injured for the remainder of the series, and the Cavs ended up losing, then, of course, one could reasonablly suggest with the proper context that the outcomes would've been different (in favor of the Cavs).

I ask you, would the Warriors have won the '16 Finals if they didn't have all that misfortune after going up 3-1?
 

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I'm not pretending to not see anything. I've already acknowledged that the series wouldn't have played out the same. Yet there's absolutely no cause to suggest the Cavs would've won had they had Kyrie/Love, because we never got to see them play against the Warriors in their respective forms at that time. If the Cavs went up 3-1 for instance, and Kyrie and Love got injured for the remainder of the series, and the Cavs ended up losing, then, of course, one could reasonablly suggest with the proper context that the outcomes would've been different (in favor of the Cavs).

I ask you, would the Warriors have won the '16 Finals if they didn't have all that misfortune after going up 3-1?
Suspensions aren’t misfortune.
Those are consequences.
 

Shadow King

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Why, because I believe in the philosophy that if a player touches the ball more, he'll naturally be more engaged on both ends?

:usure:


It's not about taking ball-handling duties away from LeBron and giving them to JR, it's about ball movement, and involving more players in the actions. I've seen JR set Love, TT, and LeBron up on multiple occasions this season when he had the ball in his hands. I'm not saying he should be running the offense, I'm saying he should be utilized better instead of solely being used on spot-up possessions - it's half the reason why he struggles to get into rhythm and why he fades in and out of games.

He's capable of doing shyt like this when given the ball -





I brought him up because he's the secondary ball-handler for Boston, something that should be obvious to anyone who watches Celtics games, which you've made abundantly clear you do not watch enough of. The problem with Smart is, he's asked to do too much with the ball (3.8 minutes time of possession), which is partly because the Celtics have limited options for the running of their system, that he ends up controlling the ball more than he should.

I'm not saying JR should be that type of ball-handler, I'm just saying he should handle the ball more. As everyone else in the team should, in accordance to their respective skillsets.

:dwillhuh:

Except it does, again, obviously you haven't been paying attention to my arguments in here. His ISOs and the team's were used in argument as blame for their offensive woes.

He's not a "complete player" just yet, give him some cotdamn time! He's not going to figure out everything in one season! He's in his first season with a new coach, new system (well, an actual system), new teammates, new environment and he's without his co-offensive anchor (a lot of their projected plans/outlook for the season had to be altered because of his injury). He's already shown improvements, well I'd say he's shown that his capable of being an effective defender, an effective off-ball player, he's shown the ability to adapt his game to fit into a system and the ability to not rely on ISO activity to score (by cutting down drastically his ISO possessions despite dealing with more offensive responsibility).

Why do I need to keep repeating myself?

:jbhmm:

:merchant:

Except he doesn't. And even if he did, he doesn't have capable ball-handlers/shot creators to the level where it allows him to only take half as many ISOs as LeBron. You're verging on being patently ridiculous at this point. Explain how Kyrie has all these capable ball-handlers/shot creators yet (to the level that you're stating), yet his second-option is a 21-year-old who's averaging 14 ppg, and when Kyrie's off the court the team's offense is worse than the worst offense* (Kings) in the league?

Kyrie off the court - Celtics 102 ORTG
LeBron off the court - Cavs 108 ORTG

And that's before we take into account the Celtics actually operate in a proper offensive system, and the Cavs don't. So for all these supposed "ball-handlers/shot creators" that the Celtics have and the Cavs don't, why is there such a differential in their offensive production when both players are off the court?

Well, you'd be wrong, cause even Cavs fans were saying prior to the trades that the team was in desperate need of a system/ball-movement.

:hubie:

2 plays does in a 13 year career does not make JR a decision maker.

Why does Kyrie "need time cotdammit" now? If anything all of these factors are reasons to make efforts to impact the game outside of scoring. Plenty of players expand their game during a season of change. Because elite players with all-around game do that.

14 PPG > better than anybody you think should be creating their own shots on Cleveland.

And I'm sure Cavs fans wanted more ball movement on a team where actual point guards like IT and Rose were available than JR and Crowder.


Like I said you overvalue the skills of the Cavs pre-trade players so this is going nowhere.
 

Shadow King

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to be honnest JR was doing 15% of his time as a PG.. he actually ran a few possessions a game

but with 2 PG's added..wont be necessary anymore
He did out of necessity but in 33 minutes a game he averaged 2.7 assists. That's not his role. JR with more time with the ball is pulling up for a low percentage jumper or driving the hole with little to no intent to dish. His success in Cleveland and Cleveland's success with him is from asking him to do less.
 

GoddamnyamanProf

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I'm amazed at how many folks are willfully ignorant just to push their agenda. Hardly anyone's interested in any proper discourse about the game.
Be gone then, clown. After yet another train ran on you in here it's clear that you make the board far worse with your insuffererable nonsense and you seem miserable most of the time that most posters have no patience for your tired bullshyt. Im sure there are plenty of Warrior Homer message boards that will jive better with your condition.
 

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Be gone then, clown. After yet another train ran on you in here it's clear that you make the board far worse with your insuffererable nonsense and you seem miserable most of the time that most posters have no patience for your tired bullshyt. Im sure there are plenty of Warrior Homer message boards that will jive better with your condition.
Dude is in here suggesting cleveland should of let JR smith run the offense more than he already was and expects people to take him seriously. :laff:
 

GoddamnyamanProf

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Dude is in here suggesting cleveland should of let JR smith run the offense more than he already was and expects people to take him seriously. :laff:
He's always been difficult to converse with and his takes are increasingly asinine of late.
 
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2 plays does in a 13 year career does not make JR a decision maker.
Two plays? Two plays? Two plays?

Does the obvious really need to be stated for you that they were simply examples and that I didn't need to post every single clip I could find of his assists/passing? He's had a number of plays like that this season. The point is he's capable of making plays like that, despite you believing otherwise. Did you not watch him when he was handling the ball when he won 6MOY in NY? Did you not see Love being one of the main ball-handlers/shot creators when he was in Minny? Do you not know that Love is one of the more talented passing big men in the league?

I've come with facts, historical trends and evidence and all you've thrown back is conjecture, half-truths, and nescience.
Why does Kyrie "need time cotdammit" now? If anything all of these factors are reasons to make efforts to impact the game outside of scoring. Plenty of players expand their game during a season of change. Because elite players with all-around game do that..
:dwillhuh:

Except he's expanded his game, I've already told you he's become more effective on defense, without the ball and playmaking, but he hasn't become a "complete player"; very few players in NBA history become "complete players" at his age. Again, it sounds like you aren't watching enough Celtics games, that you seem to think he's the same ole player, and hasn't expanded his game.
14 PPG > better than anybody you think should be creating their own shots on Cleveland.
:merchant:

Jaylen can create his shot better than Love now? Y'all LeBron stans are shameless.

Why can't you explain why the Celtics offense falls off a cliff when Kyrie isn't on the court if they have all these "shot creators/ball-handlers" that a team like Cleveland didn't have, despite Cleveland having a far greater ORTG when LeBron isn't on the floor? Why can't you explain why they're near top in the league in areas on offense which Kyrie is involved in (ISO, P&R ball-handler, spot-up etc), yet near the bottom in areas he isn't as involved in? Why do the Cavs have a far superior ORTG if they don't have these "shot creators/ball-handlers"?
And I'm sure Cavs fans wanted more ball movement on a team where actual point guards like IT and Rose were available than JR and Crowder.
Cavs fans have wanted more ball movement for a long time now, even before IT and Rose were on the team. Ball movement means just that, moving the ball, that means everyone touches the ball - that means JR gets to touch the ball more, Love gets to touch the ball more, everyone in the lineup gets to touch the ball more. Everyone's contributions leads to running the offense.

Like I said you overvalue the skills of the Cavs pre-trade players so this is going nowhere.
You just insinuated Brown can create his shot better than Love can - I think it's safe to say you're the one who's actually failing to value their skills properly.

:manny:
 
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Dude is in here suggesting cleveland should of let JR smith run the offense more than he already was and expects people to take him seriously. :laff:
Can you not read properly?

-

It's not about taking ball-handling duties away from LeBron and giving them to JR, it's about ball movement, and involving more players in the actions. I've seen JR set Love, TT, and LeBron up on multiple occasions this season when he had the ball in his hands. I'm not saying he should be running the offense, I'm saying he should be utilized better instead of solely being used on spot-up possessions - it's half the reason why he struggles to get into rhythm and why he fades in and out of games.

He's capable of doing shyt like this when given the ball -


 
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