Celtics 6th in Iso possessions this year, 28th last year
- Thread starter Project Pooch
- Start date
Drip Bayless
Superstar
Gave him that grown man talking to
I have no posts in here or anywhere else "blaming" Kyrie for Boston's offensive struggles. I just
1) See through the sudden Kyrie love for its ulterior motive
2) Find it funny that people praise him for "breaking free of Bron Ball" and the "your turn my turn" system to become a "complete" player only to do the same shyt on a new team.
Gil Scott-Heroin
Veteran
And who is this directed towards? Or maybe you should really be saying "you see through all the Kyrie hate for its ulterior motive".
Yeah, this isn't true at all. And clearly, you haven't been watching enough Celtics games to believe in this narrative.
Gil Scott-Heroin
Veteran
There's no overwhelming Kyrie hate on here. When someone disagrees with you its lack of intelligence or hate. Kyrie is a great scorer. This doesn't negate his ISO tendencies in Boston clashing with the narrative of why he ISO'd so much in Cleveland.
And you say this for every team in every debate.
"Do you watch Celtics games?"
"Do you watch Warrior games?"
"Do you watch Rockets games?"
"Do you watch Thunder games?"
"Do you watch Wolves games?"
Nobody watches all 32 teams enough for some "I seent it, you're wrong" like you apparently do. But me not watching all 82 Celtics games doesn't change the fact that Kyrie seems like he's gonna ISO no matter where he is. Until his possessions in that manner plummet next to Hayward next season, this isn't false
eastside313
Superstar
did people really think kyrie was gonna become a system player and not his signature one on one play?
Gil Scott-Heroin
Veteran
When it comes to LeBron apologists - yes there is.
Not true, at all.
There are A LOT of posters/opinions on this board that I disagree with, yet are still reasonable. I only have a problem when shyt becomes unreasonable or is not reflective of reality.
He decreased his ISO possessions by 30% from 2016/17 to 2017/18, all the while having to deal without his co-offensive anchor, while playing with less offensive weapons, in a new system, with new teammates. By rights, his ISO tendencies should've increased with the added workload/responsibility, and lack of weapons. If Hayward was playing right now, I'd estimate his ISO possessions would've dropped by 40-50%. Not to mention, the Celtics are 75th percentile in ISO this season - one of the very few areas where they're effective on offense.
Meanwhile, LeBron's "ISO tendencies" actually have increased by 22% since last season. Yet here we are arguing about a player who has actually significantly decreased his ISO activity.
Go figure.
LeBron played the vast majority of this season with no other ball handlers and a big whose often injured/ill as his second best player. It makes sense for his ISO activity to go up. This has been said already by others but it doesn't for your agenda and were supposed to expect people like JR and Jeff Green to have more
control over the ball.
Most "Bron apologists" do not have hate for Kyrie but since winning the chip anti-Bron posters go out of their way to inflate his impact on the Cavs as greater than that of LeBron while giving him very little credit, which is where the blowback comes from. For someone who has said LeBron is a top 5-10 player OAT you sure go out of your way to disparage him...while praising those who rival him (Curry, Durant, now Kyrie).
Rigby.
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this is really a more elegant way of wording my premise. I just dont understand why they iso out as much as they do. Maybe stats prove its their best form of offense, but it seems lazy of Brad to not make a more valid attempt at trying to shore up those other departments while he can. Seems like the "everybody gets a piece" standout performances they had during that sustained winning streak are gone now, so maybe their offense really is slowing down. I just feel with an improved Rozier and Smart, the versatile Horford, and the two good ass wings they got, complacency is the only reason I could see for why they're not trying to be more diverse
I think Cleveland vs Boston and GSW vs Cleveland last year are key examples of how just letting one (or a couple) elite ISO players try to win the day can backfire
Gil Scott-Heroin
Veteran
This doesn't even make any sense. There's not a great difference between the ball-handling abilities of Smart/Rozier and Wade/Calderon/Rose*, and the time they've played together with LeBron. Nevermind the fact that Kyrie barely plays with Rozier, so basically the only other ball-handler he plays regularly with is Smart.
Kyrie and Smart have played 773 mins together
Kyrie and Rozier have played 493 mins together
LeBron and Wade have played 631 mins together
LeBron and Calderon have played 487 minutes together
And yet, again, LeBron has nearly twice the amount of ISO possessions that Kyrie does, this season.
Which again, is not taking into account that LeBron played with more offensive weapons and experienced players. Kyrie had to adapt to a new system, with completely new personnel, in a new environment, all without his co-offensive anchor, inexperienced players who are still developing and figuring out how to play within the system, so he could be forgiven if his tendencies were still constant from the previous season, but in fact, he actually decreased his ISO activity by 30%, and upped his off-ball activity.
You obviously weren't paying enough attention when LeBron stans were using Kyrie as a scapegoat in case the Cavs never won a title, as they typically have treated his teammates in the past. The credit is given to LeBron when the team wins, but the blame is on his teammates when the team loses.
I don't "disparage" him, I "disparage" the narrative around his play. There's a difference.
773-631=142 minutes more. That's almost 12 quarters of difference. Since we can use common sense that they don't play while quarters tighter and more like 5 minute spurts, over 28 stretches more of Kyrie+Smart than Bron+Wade. That's enough of a difference.
This doesn't even make any sense. There's not a great difference between the ball-handling abilities of Smart/Rozier and Wade/Calderon/Rose*, and the time they've played together with LeBron. Nevermind the fact that Kyrie barely plays with Rozier, so basically the only other ball-handler he plays regularly with is Smart.
Kyrie and Smart have played 773 mins together
Kyrie and Rozier have played 493 mins together
LeBron and Wade have played 631 mins together
LeBron and Calderon have played 487 minutes together
Which again, is not taking into account that LeBron played with more offensive weapons and experienced players. Kyrie had to adapt to a new system, with completely new personnel, in a new environment, all without his co-offensive anchor, inexperienced players who are still developing and figuring out how to play within the system, so he could be forgiven if his tendencies were still constant from the previous season, but in fact, he actually decreased his ISO activity by 30%, and upped his off-ball activity.
You obviously weren't paying enough attention when LeBron stans were using Kyrie as a scapegoat in case the Cavs never won a title, as they typically have treated his teammates in the past. The credit is given to LeBron when the team wins, but the blame is on his teammates when the team loses.
I don't "disparage" him, I "disparage" the narrative around his play. There's a difference.
You keep bringing up offensive weapons as if these offensive weapons handle the ball. The vast majority of these weapons are 3 point specialists or a big who needs the ball fed to him to be effective. This is the big reason Cleveland has always had trouble with Golden State or any team with rounded players. You're not about to sit here and tell me you want people like JR, Korver, Crowder, Frye handling he ball more than Smart, Tatum, or Brown. Bringing up offensive weapons means nothing for this argument if none of them have the skill set to make you feel like they should be taking ball-handling duties from LeBron.
The "all the credit when he wins, none when he loses" narrative is false. LeBron gets blame for losing series he had no realistic chance at winning, and when he wins "because it's a super team". When he plays through games his team will likely lose its stat-padding. There seems to be a lot more posters rooting against him than for him so the hate always rings louder and farther than appreciation of objectivity. I never see a post where a cat says "Bron showed up but his guys didn't" from a non-fan because if he puts up numbers in a loss it's "stat-padding" or for whatever ever reason he's supposed to put up 10+ more than whatever he scored.
Disparaging the "narrative around his play" is disparaging him because the main thing said about him is about him is his ability to make players better and turn 8-11 seeds into contenders. It's not really a narrative when there are many more players to see grater success with Bron than without. The only exceptions are people expecting Bosh and Love to average 22 & 10 as third option big men behind Bron+Wade or Bron+Kyrie. It seems as if people flip that statement into Bron is supposed to average 20 and 11 assists while his other All-Stars score a la Magic, but this something that seems to only apply to him and never to the littany of score-first point guards today, another standard asked only of him. LeBron elevating his play and "flipping the switch" come April isn't a narrative either. There are no players who "suffer" or "get marginalized" because of him and his elevated play in the spring isn't false.
Someone actually compared Kyrie+ Smart to Bron+Wade?
Even raw minutes underplays the difference, since Bron has played FAR more minutes than Kyrie this year.
Creators alongside Bron:
Wade (30% of the time)
Calderon (23% of the time)
IT (16% of the time)
Creators alongside Kyrie:
Horford (73% of the time)
Smart (45% of the time)
Rozier (28% of the time)
That's Kyrie playing double the time with creators than Bron, and better creators in 2018 too. And, of course, Kyrie got 100% of his minutes in Stevens's systems.
Did someone really compare JR/Korver/Crowder's ability to create to Smart, Tatum, and Brown?
I'm guessing they also said that Lue is absolutely as good an offensive coach who puts together just as helpful schemes as Brad Stevens, right?
If we are talking nothing other than ability to create shots on offense for oneself and others and work in a ball-moving offense (as opposed to catch-and-shoot), then in 2018:
Smart > Calderon/IT
Tatum > JR
Brown > Crowder
Horford > Love
Baynes > TT
And Stevens >>>>> than Lue
I do think the Cavs had an advantage in the bench department, the combination of Wade and Green could do more overall than Rozier and Morris. But Rozier grew up so quick that it ain't a huge gap, and Wade has only been with Lebron for 30% of his minutes, so making a big deal of his play is ridiculous. TT has played nearly as many minutes with Lebron and he was out for 20 games.
You got Gil on ignore?Someone actually compared Kyrie+ Smart to Bron+Wade?
Even raw minutes underplays the difference, since Bron has played FAR more minutes than Kyrie this year.
Creators alongside Bron:
Wade (30% of the time)
Calderon (23% of the time)
IT (16% of the time)
Creators alongside Kyrie:
Horford (73% of the time)
Smart (45% of the time)
Rozier (28% of the time)
That's Kyrie playing double the time with creators than Bron, and better creators in 2018 too. And, of course, Kyrie got 100% of his minutes in Stevens's systems.
Did someone really compare JR/Korver/Crowder's ability to create to Smart, Tatum, and Brown?
I'm guessing they also said that Lue is absolutely as good an offensive coach who puts together just as helpful schemes as Brad Stevens, right?
If we are talking nothing other than ability to create shots on offense for oneself and others and work in a ball-moving offense (as opposed to catch-and-shoot), then in 2018:
Smart > Calderon/IT
Tatum > JR
Brown > Crowder
Horford > Love
Baynes > TT
And Stevens >>>>> than Lue
I do think the Cavs had an advantage in the bench department, the combination of Wade and Green could do more overall than Rozier and Morris. But Rozier grew up so quick that it ain't a huge gap, and Wade has only been with Lebron for 30% of his minutes, so making a big deal of his play is ridiculous. TT has played nearly as many minutes with Lebron and he was out for 20 games.
that's who this debate is with. He didn't bring up Korver or none of them but I brought them up because I doubt he or anyone else wants them taking ball-handling duties away from LeBron.
You got Gil on ignore?
i.c.
Yeah, even if he sticks to "Smart vs. Wade", the % of time that Kyrie played with Smart this year was 50% more than the % of time that Lebron played with Wade, and that totally ignores Horford, who has been a 5 assist/game guy since he entered Stevens's system (and a 3+ assist/game guy even before that), not to mention Rozier.
I put Gil on ignore about 2-3 months ago because he's become useless this last year. He used to form informed opinions and then get stuck on them, drawing a line in the sand and refusing to cross no matter what the other person brought into the conversation. Now he doesn't even start with an informed opinion, he's just been stuck on "Lebron stans, ya'all" for the last year and manipulates everything to fit that single narrative. It was a waste of my time. It also keeps me away from a lot of the really biting, personal insults he used to toss around towards me. Frankly, just don't need people like that in my life.
Also, he was getting WAY too emotional about everything. Even after I put him on ignore, you can look at see that 4 of my last 8 negs are from him, MOST of which were for comments that didn't even have anything to do with him at all. Hell, going back to October a good 1/2 of my negs stayed being from Gil. It was just ridiculous - I don't know why he cares about me that much. So I dropped him.