Comment: Why the US could no longer win a war against China

Dave24

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The United States just lost a battle to save Taiwan from a Chinese invasion and it's not the first time.

A series of intensive war games are revealing deep-set flaws in its fighting ability.

It's a nightmare, but apparently increasingly likely, scenario: Beijing making good on its threats to invade its island neighbour.

It's a sinister scenario the United States and its allies have become increasingly concerned about as China's military expands and modernises at an extraordinary rate.

Unnamed US defence sources reportedly told The Times that such a conflict was the scenario of a recent intensive war game session conducted by the Pentagon. The results, they say, were "eye-opening".

The scenarios were different and diverse. Some involved clashes in the South and East China Seas. One – the worst-case scenario – was an out-and-out war in 2030.

The US reportedly came out second-best every time.

And that has serious implications for South-East Asia's security.

"The 2020s will see greater risk as China begins to get the capability to challenge the US at sea and in the air (also in space and in cyberspace)," says Australian Strategic Policy Institute (ASPI) analyst Dr Malcolm Davis.

"That could tempt it to make moves in the South China Sea and against Taiwan. The US may not be ready to meet that challenge."

'CAPITAL LOSSES'

"Every simulation that has been conducted looking at the threat from China by 2030 have all ended up with the defeat of the US," China Power Project director Bonnie Glaser of the Centre for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) think-tank in Washington told The Times.

The war-games revealed that the US risked "capital losses" even under current circumstances.

Capital is a reference to both capital ships, such as the US Navy's enormous nuclear-powered aircraft carriers, and forward operating bases like those at Guam and Okinawa.

"China has long-range anti-ship ballistic missiles and hypersonic [more than five times the speed of sound] missiles," one source reportedly said.

Dr Davis says this technology gives China the power to keep US military forces at arm's length.

"The main challenge the US faces is sustaining the ability to project military force deep inside China's anti-access and area denial (A2AD) perimeter – which is expanding as the PLA introduces new long-range strike capability," he told News Corp today.

"Carrier-based airpower, in particular, is being challenged."


Supercarriers such as the Covid-19-crippled USS Theodore Roosevelt have been at the heart of US naval thinking since World War II.

Then, they could move swiftly and unseen across the world, launch surprise strikes and quickly retreat out of the range of counter-attack.

Times have changed.

Dr Davis says the immense investment of time, human resources and capital represented by US Navy's supercarriers are offering diminishing returns.

WAR GAME WARNINGS
War-games rarely turn out well. They're usually designed to test ideas and capabilities to breaking point. This is to reveal their strengths – and expose any weaknesses.

But, according to Dr Davis, such exercises also attempt to determine the state-of-play.


"I also think that there is a degree of accuracy and relevance about the reports and their implications," he says.

They represent an attempt by the US to shift its thinking away from the anti-terror wars of recent decades back to facing major power threats.

"A lot of their military capabilities, which excel in attacking low-level non-state threats, don't survive that well against an opponent with advanced anti-access and area denial capabilities," Dr Davis says.

"Yet it takes time and money to reconfigure the US military machine, and China especially is not moving slowly."

To emphasise this point, China last week launched an 11-week combat exercise in the confines of the Yellow Sea.

Both its aircraft carriers – Liaoning and Shandong – will be leading a combined fleet through a series of drills and manoeuvres.


It's not as provocative as it could be. The Yellow Sea is much closer to home than the East or South China Seas.

But its scale and duration are a clear signal that Beijing is increasingly confident it has the strength and endurance to conduct an extended campaign.

FORCE OF HABIT
Previous war-games held over the past decade have exposed several critical flaws in Western military thinking.

The proliferation of mid-range ballistic missiles puts previously distant bases within easy reach.

Another demonstrated how vulnerable long-range tanker aircraft are to attack – leaving strike fighters high and dry. And the helicopter-carrying troopships of the US Marine Corps (and Royal Australian Navy) were shown to be big baskets holding all their eggs.

"Forward bases such as Guam and Okinawa would be attacked at the outset of any military conflict, so probably wouldn't be available for us," Dr Davis says.

Mobile bases such as US Navy supercarriers and Marine Corps assault ships are little better off.

The carrier-borne F-35C has an unrefuelled combat radius of about 1100km. This can be boosted up to 1800km if in-flight refuelling is available.

"But there are logistic challenges sustaining an airborne refueller on station, not to mention the risk of the refueller being shot down," Dr Davis says. "Investment in unmanned refuelling platforms like the MQ-25 Stingray eases this a bit."

But even this is not enough.

"That 1800km combat radius still requires the carrier to penetrate deeply into China's A2AD (area defence) envelope, which now extends out to about 4000km from the mainland," he says.

Which is why supercarriers are at risk of becoming the dinosaurs of the modern era – like the battleships before them.


DISTRIBUTED LETHALITY
"Penetrating the A2AD envelope is getting more challenging, and demands devoting more of a carrier battlegroup's firepower to defensive capability rather than offensive punch," Dr Davis says.

"With China now deploying hypersonic weapons that add to the survivability issues for US carriers."

There are alternatives.

"Distributed Lethality – not concentrating so much on big carriers," Davis says, "it is spreading offensive capability across greater numbers of smaller vessels. But the US Navy just recently eschewed that recommendation in a recent report."

Meanwhile, the US Air Force appears to be taking a leaf out of China's book.

"Greater reliance on more long-range strike platforms is another solution, and voices are saying additional investment in bomber capabilities is the answer – a larger B-21 Raider force, adapting B-1Bs to carry hypersonic weapons," Dr Davis says.

"But force modernisations takes time and money, and the risk is that the US will have to cut corners in terms of current readiness and operational ability to fund it."

Australia's air force is taking a different approach. It is instead seeking to repurpose its F-35 Stealth Fighters as 'motherships' for flights of "Loyal Wingmen" drones optimised to tackle high-risk targets at a minimal cost.

"The bottom line is that the US needs to find new ways for its naval forces to survive China's new capabilities," Dr Davis says.

Comment: Why the US could no longer win a war against China


What are you all thoughts on this?


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BlackJesus

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US doesn’t actually need to fight an actual war to beat China. Just contain them and build alliances with neighboring countries and economically isolate them.

Their 3 to 1 gdp to debt ratio and the ongoing economic fallout from the coronavirus will unravel them further.

It will come to a point where they won’t even be able to afford a war, much less fight one.

If it came to war India is a key ally. US could wait until they make a move on India then provide air and naval support and tag team their asses.
 

Dave24

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CopiousX

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My thoughts from an earlier post.
There is literally no way around that whatsoever; so the west is gonna be fine:manny:



countries-with-the-highest-military-spending.jpg




Notice that countries 5-15 are basically US client states. Ideally, their combined military spending and even GDP should be added to the US tally to get an accurate view of what China is up against:merchant:



Beyond its own funding, pay attention to the client states. The US is like the male lion in a pride. It does not move alone. :demonic:





This is where china fumbled the bag by not coddling Africa and South East Asia. :snoop:
 

FukkaPaidEmail

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What I think?

Defense Contractors are going to lobby and receive a lot of funding using things like this as a catalyst.

We need more funding to defeat communism
We need more funding to slow saddam in the Middle East
We need more funding to defeat middle eastern and African extremists
Next we need more funding to protect our Asian interests
 
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intruder

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US doesn’t actually need to fight an actual war to beat China. Just contain them and build alliances with neighboring countries and economically isolate them.

Their 3 to 1 gdp to debt ratio and the ongoing economic fallout from the coronavirus will unravel them further.

It will come to a point where they won’t even be able to afford a war, much less fight one.

If it came to war India is a key ally. US could wait until they make a move on India then provide air and naval support and tag team their asses.

Edit: added receipts

The problem with what you are saying is that Americans have ruined their own names all over the world especially among black and brown nations.

The Indians are at war with Pakistanis and they see all the STRINGS the US attaches to weapons deals with Pakistanis and they want no part of that shyt. They look at it as "We buy weapons from you we should be able to use them however we choose" while US wants you to buy its weapons and also tell you how you can and cant use it.

The U.S. state department sanctioned the Pakistanis for using some of the F-16s they bought from the U.S. because of the way they were used fighting against the indian airforce just last year. See below article:
https://www.usnews.com/news/world-r...n-in-august-for-misusing-f-16s-document-shows

Thats the reason many countries stay away from the US in terms of military equipment especially since the U.S. only does this to black and brown nations. The US, UK, Canada, France and Israel all sell weapons to each other with no strings attached

Russia and China sell you shyt and you use it how you see fit. Americans wanna sell you the shyt, charge you up to 5 times (not an exaggeration) what it would cost you to get comparable if not better weapons elsewhere, want you to pay an enormous amount for the upkeep/maintenance contracts, and have the nerve to wanna tell you how and when to use it. Oh.. did i mention that they also want to make sure you only buy from them and wont buy from Russia or else they sanction you again. (See Turkey's F-35 deal that got killed because Turkey decided to buy Russian S400 missile system as opposed to US Patriot system)
Turkey officially kicked out of F-35 program, costing US half a billion dollars

So all these policies by US lawmakers are having all these countries run into the arms of China and Russia because of no-strings attached

That is a reason the Indians didnt jump on the F-21 deal the US offered them last year. Russian offers no-strings attached and even technology transfer to allow indian manufacturers to build assemble some of the planes which brings jobs to the indian economy. The US (after years of refusing to do so while its competitors have been for years) is now finally open to the idea of technology transfer but they still want all sorts of strings attached.

The only country the U.S. ever does technology-transfer deal with are British and Israel.

Edit: Also, that scandal when it was found that the U.S. had tapped the phones of everyone in the Brazilian government after they purchased U.S. made communications systems didnt help either. That made Cisco lose a lof of money and a lot of customers flooded to Huawei (chinese company) as a result.

NSA Tapped Brazilian Air Force One

So because of that Brazil barred US manufacturers from competing in their jet fighter competition and Sweden and France eventually got the contract.
Brazil Snubs Boeing in Fighter Jet Deal

Canada pulled out of the F-35 deal over the Boeing vs Bombadier court case and have decided to buy used older fighters rather than buy new fighters to replace their aging US-made F-18 fleet.
DEFECTIONS HAVE BEGUN: Canada Rejects The Pricey F-35 Joint Strike Fighter

Last but not least, many countries are reexamining their buy in of the U.S. made F-35 fighter after it was found that the F-35s were sending mission-related data back to the U.S. I wanna say it was the Israelis or the Turkish who caught that shyt and made it public which angered the Pentagon.
Military Watch Magazine

So again good luck thinking people are begging to be your ally like that
 
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Ozymandeas

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USA would win. In an all out war, Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, India, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia and Japan are ALL allies of the USA and have grievances with China. North Korea and Russia are their only real alliances over there. Of course if it went nuclear it wouldn’t be pretty.
 

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People talk about alliances and trade war as if we haven't been steadily removing ourselves from agreements/pacts, and lowering our economic value to the world outside of guns (military weaponry) and cool (media/culture). If black people boogied like I want so badly what does that leave the U.S. to export that can't be obtained faster as well as cheaper from competitors. Country is on it's last legs and unless white supremacy magically disappears significantly it's curtains just have to watch the slow burn
:wow:
 

Bossino

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The problem with what you are saying is that Americans have ruined their own names all over the world especially among black and brown nations.

The Indians are at war with Pakistanis and they see all the STRINGS the US attaches to weapons deals with Pakistanis and they want no part of that shyt. They look at it as "We buy weapons from you we should be able to use them however we choose" while US wants you to buy its weapons and also tell you how you can and cant use it.

The U.S. state department sanctioned the Pakistanis for using some of the F-16s they bought from the U.S. because of the way they were used fighting against the indian airforce just last year. See below article:
https://www.usnews.com/news/world-r...n-in-august-for-misusing-f-16s-document-shows

Thats the reason many countries stay away from the US in terms of military equipment.

Russia and China sell you shyt and you use it how you see fit. Americans wanna sell you the shyt, charge you up to 5 times (not an exaggeration) what it would cost you to get comparable if not better weapons elsewhere, want you to pay an enormous amount for the upkeep/maintenance contracts, and have the nerve to wanna tell you how and when to use it. Oh.. did i mention that they also want to make sure you only buy from them and wont buy from Russia or else they sanction you again. (See Turkey's F-35 deal that got killed because Turkey decided to buy Russian S400 missile system as opposed to US Patriot system)

So all these policies by US lawmakers are having all these countries run into the arms of China and Russia because of no-strings attached

That is a reason the Indians didnt jump on the F-21 deal the US offered them last year. Russian offers no-strings attached and even technology transfer to allow indian manufacturers to build assemble some of the planes which brings jobs to the indian economy. The US (after years of refusing to do so while its competitors have been for years) is now finally open to the idea of technology transfer but they still want all sorts of strings attached.

The only country the U.S. ever does technology-transfer deal with are British and Israel.
Beat me to it
 

YaThreadFloppedB!

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depends on what the objective is. if it’s complete annihilation of either country, then a pyrrhic victory for whoever wins.

sidebar, since I love history so much:

a “pyrrhic victory” or win is coined from the Epirus king, Pyrrhus, who was a cousin of Alexander the Great. There were Greek colonies on the east coast of Italy at the time and these colonies were getting bullied by the Romans, so they asked their fellow Greek, Pyrrhus to intervene. He obliged and went to war with Rome in these massive battles and kept giving Rome the beats, but the victories would come at a huge lost of men and resources. After one such battle he famously said “If we are victorious in one more battle against the Romans then we shall be utterly destroyed”.


Later, back in Greece, Pyrrhus ended getting killed by the mother of a soldier he was fighting in the streets of a greek city. She was watching the battle from the rooftop of a house, and when her son was losing, she threw a roof tile at Pyrrhus which knocked him off his horse paralyzing him. Another soldier came up and beheaded Pyrrhus.
 

African Peasant

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USA would win. In an all out war, Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, India, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia and Japan are ALL allies of the USA and have grievances with China. North Korea and Russia are their only real alliances over there. Of course if it went nuclear it wouldn’t be pretty.

Pakistan, Cambodia, Butan, Nepal and Iran are with China.


BUu to be honest, there is no guarantee on how anyone will act.

For instance, maybe Japan will tale that occasion to kick the US out instead.


A China US war is an unprecedent and unpredictable event.

Anyone saying it will go like this like that he's talking out of his ass.

Not a single country in the world would be on China's side if they invade Taiwan.

Not a lot of countries will be ready to fight China just for Taiwan.

Il the US does not move, no one is gonna do shyt.
 
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