Competing with WWE

[The Electric Lady]

I dunno. I think WCW proved that the only brand loyalty people have isn't the company name but to wrestlers themselves. WCW single handedly proves your argument false: wrestling fans have no brand loyalty. It is just that WWE is the only real game in town. You're asking them to go from watching the majors (Wwe) to the minors (tna). Nothing against new Japan but how many basketball or baseball fans do you know keeping up with Japanese sports?

Now, imagine a talent exodus from WWE to a new highly advertised promotion. You don't think the fan base will tune into that?

That said, I'll rep you because you lay down a great argument. Much better than the usual people here.

 

[DocZulu]

I dunno. I think WCW proved that the only brand loyalty people have isn't the company name but to wrestlers themselves. WCW single handedly proves your argument false: wrestling fans have no brand loyalty. It is just that WWE is the only real game in town. You're asking them to go from watching the majors (Wwe) to the minors (tna). Nothing against new Japan but how many basketball or baseball fans do you know keeping up with Japanese sports?

Now, imagine a talent exodus from WWE to a new highly advertised promotion. You don't think the fan base will tune into that?

That said, I'll rep you because you lay down a great argument. Much better than the usual people here.

 

[DocZulu]

I rated this a 5-star thread. The TSC is bursting with creative and thoughtful remarks. I'm gonna have to post back later tonight after thinking on this.

 

[Shadow]

I dunno. I think WCW proved that the only brand loyalty people have isn't the company name but to wrestlers themselves. WCW single handedly proves your argument false: wrestling fans have no brand loyalty. It is just that WWE is the only real game in town. You're asking them to go from watching the majors (Wwe) to the minors (tna). Nothing against new Japan but how many basketball or baseball fans do you know keeping up with Japanese sports?

Now, imagine a talent exodus from WWE to a new highly advertised promotion. You don't think the fan base will tune into that?

That said, I'll rep you because you lay down a great argument. Much better than the usual people here.

WCW was far larger than TNA or any other company besides NJPW(actually might have been bigger than them too) and WWE.Plus WCW had been around a while too and they built up a large fanbase over time.

I disagree with wrestling fans not having brand loyalty. They have it and they will stick with what they know instead of trying to branch out while at the same time putting down other companies.

I wouldn't compare Japanese wrestling with Japanese sports I'd more so make the comparison with Japanese films or foreign films in general. A lot of folks are just not gonna want to read subtitles however there are plenty of great foreign films out there. I think movies are a great way to look at it in comparison to wrestling. There's some movies that many won't even consider depending on the type(not genre).

Examples:

"I would watch that film but ehhhhh not a fan of black and white movies."

"Subtitles man, ugh I can't do it. Movie might be good but I'll wait for the American remake." I understand not wanting to read subtitles all the time though.

Even taking TNA out of the equation their are sooooooooo many alternatives to the WWE. It's just that the WWE is easier to access, it's so much more popular than any other company and the brand loyalty aspect that many fans have. Now when I say that I mean that many seem to expect the other company to feel like the WWE but not feel like the WWE at the same time. They want the other company to be as large as the WWE, draw the same huge crowds like the WWE but also be different from the WWE. You can't formulate a perfect company that's exactly like the WWE in some aspect but not others. No company is perfect but when it comes to speaking of alternatives to the WWE, people always seem to find something 'wrong' with the alternatives.

Now, imagine a talent exodus from WWE to a new highly advertised promotion. You don't think the fan base will tune into that?

Some would. A lot maybe but eventually they'd go back to the WWE, maybe not all of them but a lot would. A lot of people just prefer to stick with what they know. They'll give it a chance but the majority won't support it like the WWE.

You'd get "My favorite wrestlers are in the WWE" or "My favorite wrestlers are in the other company...but I want them to come back to the WWE, I'm not watching that BS."

Note: This isn't about the folks who generally enjoy WWE more than other companies. Just about those who say they want an alternative but they want it to be exactly how they want it to be.

Thanks for the rep, I always forget to do it. For a long time we didn't have rep on here.

 

[The Electric Lady]

Well, there you go. TNA and other feds aren't as big as WCW. NJPW is on the rise, and hopefully they try to cater to their non-English fanbase. Thankfully I have a handle on Japanese and can read the names and parse the language, so I use NJPW as enhancing my language learning abilities. Most wrestling fans won't get that from NJPW. That being said, I think NJPW is a big niche. Any foreign product has the potential to be niche - and usually is - when it comes to media and entertainment aside from football (soccer). I think it'd be very hard to convince MOST people -WWE fans or not - to watch NJPW. They just are't that hardcore into the hobby. But if their favorites went to New Japan, I don't think it'd be that far away.

I still think that wrestling is a business driven not by company name, but star power. WWE just has all the relevant stars - in the English speaking world - right now. Let's say Punk went to NJPW. I bet you New Japan would have an increase in watchers.

I just don't think wrestling fans have much brand loyalty. In the Attitude Era, everyone I knew who watched wrestling watched BOTH feds and we flipped the channels during commercial breaks. The ratings for both indicate this was true for many people and not just my limited circle.

While you're right that WCW built a fanbase over time, think of the main factors as to why WCW blew up: star power. They got Hulk, they got Nash, Luger, Flair, they got Hall, they Rude, and Hart, and all these stars from WWF jumping ship. Of course they blew up - they stole WWF's fanbase. WWF started to get an edge when many WCW stars jumped ship to WWF. I stopped watching WCW by 2000 simply because all my faves had went to the F.

 

[Shadow]

I don't think that's possible these days though. I really don't.

Back then was a whole different story. I used to watch WWF, WCW and ECW but now a days? Man nobody's getting close to the WWE in America except the UFC. But that's a whole different thing.

 

[The Electric Lady]

I think that if we had an actual competitor, it'd be viable. Going from WWE to TNA just isn't the best experience, production-wise. TNA also has some of the problems of later era WCW, but with the recent talent jumping ship, hopefully they can learn to stop relying on older performers. When Angle and the other old men leave, I'll watch TNA again.

 

[Momentum]

I think WWE has more brand equity than a lot of you realize. Most of their fans are really young and we all know how much rewriting of history they've done.

You can only disrupt WWE, you can't compete straight up. And disrupting means providing something that changes the business forever. Kind of like how Redbox killed Blockbuster. It was a completely different idea that offered a better experience.

You couldn't do pro wrestling entertainment or whatever and try to book venues and compete like that, fans are programmed to only draw for the WWE names. TNA has guys that can work but because they're best talent has never been in WWE they draw like 200 people max.

There are ways to present pro wrestling as something other than a poorly written male soap opera, but I'm going to table my ideas because I don't want them stolen without getting paid... but point is, think way beyond the box.

 

[DocZulu]

Love the conversation. Let me add a few thoughts...

• First: the NWA was never as popular as the WWE, however, they had a national base that was stronger than TNA. So when NWA sprouted into WCW, they were able to build upon their base when they acquired WWF (future WWE) talent.

• Second: even in the 21st century you don't need WWE's base. Lots of 20-40 year old men would watch an athletic, operatic, competition between men. Hell, there are some people that still question whether or not UFC is real. :D

• Finally, during the Golden Age of wrestling ECW came to Spike TV (then called TNN) and scored ratings anywhere between (0.7) and (1.2). Now, without WCW, I'd argue that there's plenty of room for a wrestling promotion to steal ratings from TNA-Impact and WWE.

But the promotion would need to be smart and compelling, and it wouldn't hurt to bring in a few veteran grapplers for the undercard. I'm in agreement with Paul Heyman that a rival promotion needs to boast a young and culturally relevant roster of talent.

 

[K-Apps]

At this pont as well, you need a young, innovative, and ruthless man with either deep pockets or financial backing to really any good points any of us for any viable #2 promotion in North America. Dixie Carter is proven to be way too inept as a businesswomen, let alone a wrestling promoter to run a viable pro wrestling promotion. It's gonna take a person who is smart enough to realize that pro wrestling a innovative and drastic shakeup on how product is done and promoted and to be able to make everybody(hardcore, casual, non-fans) that's not WWE style wrestling at all.

 

[The Amerikkkan Idol]

Maybe go for an R rating? At least a TV-14.

Bring back the innovation in moves and wrestling holds and stuff.

I didn't watch for over a decade and was shocked at how dumbed down and schlocky the matches are in WWE now.

I remember staying up at night to catch ECW on some lame channel at like 11 or 12 at night, because they had a attitude and a swagger.

The line between real and fake was real blurred there.

They were putting women through tables and pile driving them off of ring aprons and shyt like that.

It was just crazy with barbed wire and thumbtacks everywhere.

I mean the matches with Mick Foley and Terry Funk with explosives and all that other shyt were just beyond what I thought was possible or even safe in a staged environment.

 

[StatUS]

Maybe go for an R rating? At least a TV-14.

Bring back the innovation in moves and wrestling holds and stuff.

I didn't watch for over a decade and was shocked at how dumbed down and schlocky the matches are in WWE now.

I remember staying up at night to catch ECW on some lame channel at like 11 or 12 at night, because they had a attitude and a swagger.

The line between real and fake was real blurred there.

They were putting women through tables and pile driving them off of ring aprons and shyt like that.

It was just crazy with barbed wire and thumbtacks everywhere.

I mean the matches with Mick Foley and Terry Funk with explosives and all that other shyt were just beyond what I thought was possible or even safe in a staged environment.

None of that shyt was safe. Alot them dudes are fukked up seriously these days

 

[The Electric Lady]

None of that shyt was safe. Alot them dudes are fukked up seriously these days

I watched the Mick Foley doc today and I feel like those extremes were unnecessary and terrible. None of the docu talks about his wrestling ability or anything, it's mostly just showing what kind of bumps and spots he did. They actually made me feel scared/repulsed by Mick, his peers, and the entire business during that time period. Getting yourself over is fine, but when it's getting body slammed on top of barbed wire, I think a line should be drawn. I think being edgy and making matches feel real is great, as exemplified by Dean Ambrose vs Regal - but when it comes to that carny redneck extreme wrasslin, I just immediately tune out.

I don't expect to check out the ECW backlog on the WWE Network because of it. I have no interest in that shyt. It's likely because I'm a female so I don't want to see people get hurt but fukk it. Extreme wrestling was garbage.

 

[The Amerikkkan Idol]

I watched the Mick Foley doc today and I feel like those extremes were unnecessary and terrible. None of the docu talks about his wrestling ability or anything, it's mostly just showing what kind of bumps and spots he did. They actually made me feel scared/repulsed by Mick, his peers, and the entire business during that time period. Getting yourself over is fine, but when it's getting body slammed on top of barbed wire, I think a line should be drawn. I think being edgy and making matches feel real is great, as exemplified by Dean Ambrose vs Regal - but when it comes to that carny redneck extreme wrasslin, I just immediately tune out.

I don't expect to check out the ECW backlog on the WWE Network because of it. I have no interest in that shyt. It's likely because I'm a female so I don't want to see people get hurt but fukk it. Extreme wrestling was garbage.

I feel what you're saying, and maybe not to that extreme, but even the WWE used to do stuff like the Hell in a Cell matches with Undertaker and Mankind and Shawn Michaels had some matches.

You had Steve Austin and Savio Vega in a "Caribbean Strap" match.

You had lumberjack matches

You had a lot more ladder matches.

You could still do power bombs, pile drivers, the crazy aerial moves that the luchadores did.

Yeah, maybe let's leave thumbtacks and barbed wire out, but these bullshyt ass 5 minute divas matches and 10 minute superstar matches aint cutting it.

 

[Redguard]

What wrestling really needs the most is new bookers who are young and have fresh ideas or approaches to booking. Most of these promotions keep hiring the same people and they keep booking the same stuff that failed in another promotion. Also a lot of these old bookers have biases that end up doing more harm than good for a company.