DACA - DREAM ACT - Immigration Reform Thread

Pool_Shark

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unless you can show that somebody is violating your civil rights or your human rights then you dont really have a case, sending somebody back to their country is not a violation of civil rights or human rights.
Which country is "their" country? If someone has lived their whole lives here but was born in Mexico that means they're not American. On paper it makes sense but when you look at the impact it would have on these people lives and is it even ethically right to kick someone out despite them having grown up in American schools, worked in American jobs, and live American lives.

if you are going to make a case you have to make a case based on the rule of law, because its the rule of law that is important

The law is always right and can never be disputed? It's black and white. We should never look at what they contributed to America and just cause they don't have their papers give them the boot.

the reality is that the us lets millions of immigrants in every year, what is so special about you that makes it that you dont have to follow the rules that all the other legal immigrants followed?

Not illegal but thanks for assuming. I'm not saying knock the borders down and just let everyone in. I'm trying to say that there needs to be a massive reform of the immigration procedure and there has to be a way for people who are already American and paid there dues to be allowed a way to live in the country they were raised in.
 

Piff Perkins

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Good call by Obama. Right thing to do morally, smart thing to do politically. Win win
 

RugbyMan

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all i see in this post is childishness and selfishness, unless you can show that somebody is violating your civil rights or your human rights then you dont really have a case
white people not liking you or sending somebody back to their country is not a violation of civil rights or human rights, mexicans and americans have not liked each other for 2-300 years

nobody has to like you and if you are not following the rules then you dont have anything

if you are going to make a case you have to make a case based on the rule of law, because its the rule of law that is important not sob stories

the reality is that the us lets millions of immigrants in every year, what is so special about you that makes it that you dont have to follow the rules that all the other legal immigrants followed?

:krs: Cut throat as hell. I was trying to be diplomatic with dude so he wouldn't get defensive and shut the argument down by crying "racism!" but you ain't having it huh? :laugh: The bolded is especially powerful and its not something Latino immigrants want to hear. Like I said in an earlier post, Hispanic immigrants are the most coddled and babied of all immigrant groups, and what Obama just did confirms that.




@ Pool_Shark:
Do you honeslty think there shouldn't be ANY repercussions for the blatant disrespect that illegals have shown towards US Law? :what:
I actually think our immigration laws are fine, they just need to be followed and enforced. But you say there needs to be massive reform, so how exactly would you reform it without encouraging millions of more illegals to flood into the country? :beli:
 

Pool_Shark

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:krs: Cut throat as hell. I was trying to be diplomatic with dude so he wouldn't get defensive and shut the argument down by crying "racism!" but you ain't having it huh? :laugh: The bolded is especially powerful and its not something Latino immigrants want to hear. Like I said in an earlier post, Hispanic immigrants are the most coddled and babied of all immigrant groups, and what Obama just did confirms that.




@ Pool_Shark:
Do you honeslty think there shouldn't be ANY repercussions for the blatant disrespect that illegals have shown towards US Law? :what:
I actually think our immigration laws are fine, they just need to be followed and enforced. But you say there needs to be massive reform, so how exactly would you reform it without encouraging millions of more illegals to flood into the country? :beli:

Can you please show me where I said there should be zero repercussions for illegal immigrants. I cannot give you correct answer to the second question cause I'm not one of those armchair players that knows how to fix the world and has all the solutions.

When I say there needs to be a massive reform, I say it because the current immigration policies have been proven to be ineffective.

Why would I call racism? This is an adult discussion, I enjoy talking about this and you guys are bringing up good points. If we could refrain from cheap attempts at insulting one another we'll be able to stay on topic with the discussion.
 

Brown_Pride

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but those are side issues, the main issue is the rule of law, not just here but all over the world, the rule of law is one the pillars of prosperity and when you lose that you lose the basic of what makes a country prosper, thats why i defend isreal deporting african refugees also
BS
The rule of law is a fuggin joke and you know it.
Fairness is a fuggin joke and you know it.

Those two things don't exist anymore, as a black person i'd assume you'd have recognized that by now.

Is it illegal? Sure is. Ergo them needing deferments and amnesty, i don't think many people would arguing it NOT being illegal, THAT isn't the issue really. THe issue is how do you deal with the problem.

if you think wholesale deportation is the answer then you're asking for a catastrophe that would kill the economy and possibly divide a nation.

The latino immigrant is "coddled" because of the native latino. The problem which is more explained by proximity and racism than anything else.

Ironcially racism against "illegal" latinos spills over to "legal" latinos so when "movements" get going it's only natural for the two to join up, even more natural when family members occupy two sides of the same fence.

Latino immigration is unique in this country for any number of reasons, comparing it to previous immigration waves is just silly for a number of reasons.

But yes again, it is illegal.
 

theworldismine13

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BS
The rule of law is a fuggin joke and you know it.
Fairness is a fuggin joke and you know it.

Those two things don't exist anymore, as a black person i'd assume you'd have recognized that by now.

Is it illegal? Sure is. Ergo them needing deferments and amnesty, i don't think many people would arguing it NOT being illegal, THAT isn't the issue really. THe issue is how do you deal with the problem.

if you think wholesale deportation is the answer then you're asking for a catastrophe that would kill the economy and possibly divide a nation.

The latino immigrant is "coddled" because of the native latino. The problem which is more explained by proximity and racism than anything else.

Ironcially racism against "illegal" latinos spills over to "legal" latinos so when "movements" get going it's only natural for the two to join up, even more natural when family members occupy two sides of the same fence.

Latino immigration is unique in this country for any number of reasons, comparing it to previous immigration waves is just silly for a number of reasons.

But yes again, it is illegal.

I think the rule of law does exist in this country, that isn't an absolute statement that is a relative statement, whatever corruption you see in the us its nothing compared to the corruption of places that don't have the rule of law.... Like Mexico...

I'm not necessarily against amnesty for specific groups, I have a problem with the idea that sending somebody back to their country is a violation of civil rights or human rights in and of itself

IMO a lot of the arguments are non sequiturs

It's like, white people don't like me therefore I should get a visa
or the sw belonged to Mexico therefore I should get a visa or I really really like it here so I should get a visa

But I don't see where any rights are being violated or where there is a crisis, like dude said as far as I know the system is working, there are plenty of immigrants coming to the us legally

I don't think people here illegally have much of a case, the dream act people have some sympathy but the bulk of illegal immigrants have to go back
 

RugbyMan

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Can you please show me where I said there should be zero repercussions for illegal immigrants. I cannot give you correct answer to the second question cause I'm not one of those armchair players that knows how to fix the world and has all the solutions.

When I say there needs to be a massive reform, I say it because the current immigration policies have been proven to be ineffective.

Why would I call racism? This is an adult discussion, I enjoy talking about this and you guys are bringing up good points. If we could refrain from cheap attempts at insulting one another we'll be able to stay on topic with the discussion.

You seem to imply that there shouldn't be any deportations, which seems to imply that there shouldn't be any repercussions. And I'm not asking you to fix the world. You seem like a sharp cat and you're saying there needs to be immigration reform, so I assumed you'd have some sort of ideas for it.
 

RugbyMan

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BS
The rule of law is a fuggin joke and you know it.
Fairness is a fuggin joke and you know it.

Those two things don't exist anymore, as a black person i'd assume you'd have recognized that by now.

Is it illegal? Sure is. Ergo them needing deferments and amnesty, i don't think many people would arguing it NOT being illegal, THAT isn't the issue really. THe issue is how do you deal with the problem.

if you think wholesale deportation is the answer then you're asking for a catastrophe that would kill the economy and possibly divide a nation.

The latino immigrant is "coddled" because of the native latino. The problem which is more explained by proximity and racism than anything else.

Ironcially racism against "illegal" latinos spills over to "legal" latinos so when "movements" get going it's only natural for the two to join up, even more natural when family members occupy two sides of the same fence.

Latino immigration is unique in this country for any number of reasons, comparing it to previous immigration waves is just silly for a number of reasons.

But yes again, it is illegal.

You say wholesale deportation isn't the answer. Many people would agree with that. Are you implying that wholesale amnesty is the answer?

And what do mean by native Latino? Are you implying the indigenous aspect? Or are you referring to Hispanic Americans? Because most non-Latinos view a Mexican different than a Mexican-American, even though many Latinos seem to cover them with the same brush.

Latinos themselves compare immigration now to previous immigration with statements such as "this country was founded on immigrants". So I don't understand why it's "silly" to compare Latino immigration with that of other immigrants. This seems to go back to that "Latino immigrants should be treated better than other immigrants" mode of thinking that we've already brought up.

As far as racism, I'm not indifferent to the plight of racism that Latinos face. But its probably 1/10th the racism that an every day black person faces. And not to mention that there's a large segment of Hispanics that have blatantly negative feelings towards blacks. So its hard for me to sympathize with Latinos that cry racism, when they turn around and show that same racist behavior towards blacks. A lot of this thread has been spurned by this argument, but it keeps going unaddressed.
 

theworldismine13

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Which country is "their" country? If someone has lived their whole lives here but was born in Mexico that means they're not American. On paper it makes sense but when you look at the impact it would have on these people lives and is it even ethically right to kick someone out despite them having grown up in American schools, worked in American jobs, and live American lives.



The law is always right and can never be disputed? It's black and white. We should never look at what they contributed to America and just cause they don't have their papers give them the boot.



Not illegal but thanks for assuming. I'm not saying knock the borders down and just let everyone in. I'm trying to say that there needs to be a massive reform of the immigration procedure and there has to be a way for people who are already American and paid there dues to be allowed a way to live in the country they were raised in.

even if you have "massive reform" the day after massive reform, somebody will jump across the border with their kid, so what is your response to that person and their kid? are you going to "violate their rights" by sending them back

as far as the law, changing the law is fine if you think its wrong, but my point is you need a stronger argument than the one you are making, it has to be an argument that is based on fairness and the rule of law

im not for wide spread amnesty because its basically a handout to mexico and south america while caribbeans and africans who tend to go to the embassy and patiently wait their turn get screwed, i dont see how its fair to reward people that break the law and screw people who play by the rules
 

Brown_Pride

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You say wholesale deportation isn't the answer. Many people would agree with that. Are you implying that wholesale amnesty is the answer?
Personally no, i think more along the lines of a guest worker program that functions at a more fluid pace.
And what do mean by native Latino? Are you implying the indigenous aspect? Or are you referring to Hispanic Americans? Because most non-Latinos view a Mexican different than a Mexican-American, even though many Latinos seem to cover them with the same brush.
I can personally attest to the contrary and my experience is hardly unique. "They all look the same". My whole problem with SB1070 is that it promotes stoping brown people. TO the best of my knowledge they've not yet developed the "Spic-O-Beam" that can detect the difference between an american brown person speaking spanish and listening to spanish music and an "illegal" doing the same. ktar.com, you should go visit the LOCAL media boards here in phoenix, anytime a spanish surename is mentioned the assumption is that it's an illegal; and again this is a sentiment that i've seen far to many times to have it be an anomaly.
Latinos themselves compare immigration now to previous immigration with statements such as "this country was founded on immigrants". So I don't understand why it's "silly" to compare Latino immigration with that of other immigrants. This seems to go back to that "Latino immigrants should be treated better than other immigrants" mode of thinking that we've already brought up.
I don't think better or worse just with an understanding that the situation is a different. Immigration is immigration but each time a group of people have immigrated it has had it's own flavor, from the italians to the chinese to the mexicans. I also think people downplay the proximity of the countries to eachother. That factor plays a major role in mexican immigration and it's one that is ignored.

As far as racism, I'm not indifferent to the plight of racism that Latinos face. But its probably 1/10th the racism that an every day black person faces.
oh ok cool didn't know there was a racism measuring stick out there. You let me know when someone is able to protest racism, better yet you let me know when hispanics can speak up about THEIR mistreatment. I guess we've gotta be stepped on a little more for our racism to be relevant? What is your point in making this comment?

And not to mention that there's a large segment of Hispanics that have blatantly negative feelings towards blacks. So its hard for me to sympathize with Latinos that cry racism, when they turn around and show that same racist behavior towards blacks. A lot of this thread has been spurned by this argument, but it keeps going unaddressed.
not a single group of people isn't racist. Please show me a group of people who don't exhibit some sort of bias based on race. (cac, beaner, miate) There's a derogatory name for all colors in all languages.
 

88m3

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immigrants being racist has to do with what issues black people should be pushing and focusing on and what issues we should demand the government focus on

the thing is black people see white people being racist against immigrants and they automatically think they should side with illegal immigrants, which in terms of political and economic strategy i would assert is a bad idea

i think at the most illegal immigration should be a neutral issue for black people, thats the most positive statement i could make about it, but i dont see how black people are winning by allowing illegal immigration

:ohhh:


So you want me to stand with the racists and not up against them?



It's basic human rights.
 

theworldismine13

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:ohhh:


So you want me to stand with the racists and not up against them?



It's basic human rights.

You can do whatever you want, imo the level of racism in north america is equal to the racism in south america and mexico, both sides are racist imo so that is a moot point

And I don't see how sending somebody back to the country they came from is a human rights violation, you are gonna have to break that down for me

I'm standing up for the rule of law becuase it's the rule of law that will protect me and what protects everybody, I'm not anti immigration and just saying people should follow the rules and go to the us embassy and apply for a visa
 

RugbyMan

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Personally no, i think more along the lines of a guest worker program that functions at a more fluid pace.

You don't think there should be any deportations? No repercussions? How do you not encourage millions of more illegals from coming into the country? You don't think there should be a cap on immigration, and that the US Government should be able to pick and choose who it wants to come in from all over the world? I'm not being an ass, I'm curious as to what you think.

I can personally attest to the contrary and my experience is hardly unique. "They all look the same". My whole problem with SB1070 is that it promotes stoping brown people. TO the best of my knowledge they've not yet developed the "Spic-O-Beam" that can detect the difference between an american brown person speaking spanish and listening to spanish music and an "illegal" doing the same. ktar.com, you should go visit the LOCAL media boards here in phoenix, anytime a spanish surename is mentioned the assumption is that it's an illegal; and again this is a sentiment that i've seen far to many times to have it be an anomaly.

SB1070, whether right or wrong, was in response to the US Government refusing to do its job, and actually blocking states from doing it. And Hispanics assumed that it would lead to wide-spread racial profiling for all of them. While I'm sure there would've been some profiling, I'm willing to bet that a lot of police officers in AZ are of Hispanic descent and I can't see them doing that to their own people. And you know that cacs are paranoid of being called "racist" so they would've been timid with the profiling too. Perhaps people in AZ are dumb, but I've grown up in a heavily populated Hispanic city and I can say this: if they don't speak any damn english, stand on the side of the road hoping to get picked up for work, and pay everything strictly in cash, I'm willing to bet money that they're here illegaly. Lets not front like people have no clear perception between an American and a foreigner. Maybe AZ cacs are just dumb.

I don't think better or worse just with an understanding that the situation is a different. Immigration is immigration but each time a group of people have immigrated it has had it's own flavor, from the italians to the chinese to the mexicans. I also think people downplay the proximity of the countries to eachother. That factor plays a major role in mexican immigration and it's one that is ignored.

Immigration was more welcomed back then because we were still in "nation-building mode" and there was abundance of land, jobs, and resources. Its not like that anymore. The country is built. I personally believe that over-population decreases the overall quality of life for everybody, but that's a different topic. I don't think its good to keep bringing in millions and millions of low skilled workers. You bring up the proximity aspect, so do you think Mexicans should be given preferential treatment because we share a border with them? And answer me this: if somebody comes into the country illegaly, knowing that there can be repercussions if they're caught, and then they eventually get caught and have to face those repercussions, how can they whine and act like some sort of injustice has been done to them? The possible repercussions were right there in their face.

oh ok cool didn't know there was a racism measuring stick out there. You let me know when someone is able to protest racism, better yet you let me know when hispanics can speak up about THEIR mistreatment. I guess we've gotta be stepped on a little more for our racism to be relevant? What is your point in making this comment?

You mad?? Sarcastic chap aren't you? I bring up racism because this is the main argument Hispanics make whenever deportation comes up, and I think its a cop-out that stifles any debate. Furthermore, many Latinos want to compare their current plight to the Civil Rights Movement, and that's a damn slap in the face. And no I'm sorry I don't think the racism Hispanics experience is remotely comparable to the racism blacks exerience, especially when so many Hispanics are willing to compare the two together. I also like how members of the Hispanic community conveniently ignore their racism towards blacks, but then want blacks to support their cause.

not a single group of people isn't racist. Please show me a group of people who don't exhibit some sort of bias based on race. (cac, beaner, miate) There's a derogatory name for all colors in all languages.

So because you believe all groups of people are racist, then its ok and should be tolerated? I think all groups of people have stereotypes about other groups of people, but that doesn't nessecary equate to racism. And I actually don't think black folks are really racist, because we are not condescending and malicious towards other groups. A lot of what may be deemed "racists" by blacks is really a defense mechanism and distrust from blacks having been shytted on for so long.

Look here man. Your username is Brown_Pride, so I know you're dug into your position. I'm just playing devil's advocate and trying offer a different side. Or is your brown pride so strong that you disrgard other ethnic groups? I actually go out of my way to promote unity in diversity, but I can honestly admit I get annoyed by the petty ethnic battles that SOME Latinos try to engage in. I wish somebody from the Latino community would speak up about this. I can't tell you how many Mexicans vs. Blacks, Mexicans vs. Asians, Mexicans vs. Arabs nonsense I've had to quell down. My position is how immigration affects ALL people, not just one ethnic group.
 
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