DACA - DREAM ACT - Immigration Reform Thread

[yesiambowling]

Meh, what he says and what he does are likely to be two different things. Once the election is over, he'll go right back to deporting them.

Watch for him to make an announcement about stopping the MM raids before the elction as well. Then he'll go right back to raiding those as well.

Sadly, I don't think I have an option but to vote for him. Gary Johnson's economics are simply too wishy washy.

 

[GetInTheTruck]

Obama proves why he's a joke once again. illegal spanish immigrants stay getting coddled.

 

[Brown_Pride]

You don't think there should be any deportations? No repercussions? How do you not encourage millions of more illegals from coming into the country? You don't think there should be a cap on immigration, and that the US Government should be able to pick and choose who it wants to come in from all over the world? I'm not being an ass, I'm curious as to what you think.

I believe deportation is right when they are caught, I believe the influx of immigration will subside (which it already has, though I’d been saying this for ages), I believe you cannot stop all things that are illegal, though you should try, and we do try. I don’t believe in the “this was our land” argument.

SB1070, whether right or wrong, was in response to the US Government refusing to do its job, and actually blocking states from doing it. And Hispanics assumed that it would lead to wide-spread racial profiling for all of them. While I'm sure there would've been some profiling, I'm willing to bet that a lot of police officers in AZ are of Hispanic descent and I can't see them doing that to their own people. And you know that cacs are paranoid of being called "racist" so they would've been timid with the profiling too. Perhaps people in AZ are dumb, but I've grown up in a heavily populated Hispanic city and I can say this: if they don't speak any damn english, stand on the side of the road hoping to get picked up for work, and pay everything strictly in cash, I'm willing to bet money that they're here illegaly. Lets not front like people have no clear perception between an American and a foreigner. Maybe AZ cacs are just dumb.

Um well yeah people in az are fuggin stupid. No seriously they are and this issue only lends to their cohesiveness and veracity. White folks in az don’t give two shyts if Hispanics think they are racist, most wear that shyt like a badge of honor. We are QUICKLY turning into one of the worst States in the country. IF someone doesn’t speak English, stands on the side of the road looking for work and pays in cash he could also be called my grandfather, who happens to be 100% American. There are entire towns in AZ where Spanish is the norm. And there’s no front, a Mexican national and a large number of Hispanic americans only differ in location of birth. In AZ this is a hot button issue simply because it’s being worked into one. Overall affect of illegals on the economy has been found to be negligible (source: Congressional Budget office during Bush’s tenure). IF the argument is an economic on then it’s not a really good one. If it’s a “Legal” one then legally SB1070 opens up to many doors for it to be used in so many wrong ways. It’s just a horribly written law.

As a citizen if I see a cop pulling someone over and I SUSPECT that person to be illegal and I see the cop let him go without checking his residency status I can sue the police department for not doing its job. I.E. IF as an American I get pulled over and don’t have my ID I run into all sorts of trouble if a cop wants to be an ass about things, and honestly I’ve already had so many issue with ass like cops that I really don’t trust the half of them here in phoenix…and I Have like 6 cousins in law enforcement.

Immigration was more welcomed back then because we were still in "nation-building mode" and there was abundance of land, jobs, and resources. Its not like that anymore. The country is built. I personally believe that over-population decreases the overall quality of life for everybody, but that's a different topic. I don't think its good to keep bringing in millions and millions of low skilled workers. You bring up the proximity aspect, so do you think Mexicans should be given preferential treatment because we share a border with them? And answer me this: if somebody comes into the country illegaly, knowing that there can be repercussions if they're caught, and then they eventually get caught and have to face those repercussions, how can they whine and act like some sort of injustice has been done to them? The possible repercussions were right there in their face.

I think the whining is BS. You played the game, you got caught, go back and come again like everyone else has had to.
From an American stand point what are we going to do? Build a giant wall , militarize the boarder , imprison everyone who breaks the same law over and over? each of those cures is worse than the disease.

The proximity is important in that it adds to the complexity of the problem. Preferential treatment is NOT what I’m saying at all. I’m just saying that when you literally have families divided by a line in the sand it’s not going to make sense to a lot of people.

I also bring it up because there’s typically a “culture” argument assigned to threads like these and really it’s more for that than anything else. MOST countries that share boarders with other countries have cultural merging near their boarders, i.e. the southwest is very Hispanic, in both culture and ethnic make up; making the “they don’t Americanize argument” silly IMHO.

You mad?? Sarcastic chap aren't you?

No and yes

I bring up racism because this is the main argument Hispanics make whenever deportation comes up, and I think its a cop-out that stifles any debate. Furthermore, many Latinos want to compare their current plight to the Civil Rights Movement, and that's a damn slap in the face. And no I'm sorry I don't think the racism Hispanics experience is remotely comparable to the racism blacks exerience, especially when so many Hispanics are willing to compare the two together. I also like how members of the Hispanic community conveniently ignore their racism towards blacks, but then want blacks to support their cause.

I can see your point and do agree that the WAY racism is brought up is sorta sideways in some cases, but honestly racism is racism in my eyes. That being said black people are racist, white people are racist and brown people are racist, what’s your point? Racism exists, you’re just asking me to accept that because brown people can be racist (like everyone else) they shouldn’t ask to not be treated differently? If that’s the case then you’re whole argument on this went moot when you started calling white people cacs. You’re being racist, does that then mean that the plight of black people should be ignored because you’d decided to show your racism? The obvious answer is no, at least to me. There are similarities between the black experience and the Hispanic experience, failing to recognize this only strengthens the people committing these acts on BOTH groups cause guess what, IT”S THE SAME GROUP OF PEOPLE.

The moment you decide to make the civil rights movement a “black thing” you detract from what it accomplished, and what it accomplished was a GREAT things…not just for blacks but for people and their civil rights.

So because you believe all groups of people are racist, then its ok and should be tolerated?

No quite the opposite. It appeared to me like you were saying because brown people can be racist they should not comment on being racist, the logical conclusion then is that since ALL people can be racist NO ONE should comment. Isn’t that where that line of thinking leads? And is that your line of thinking?

I think all groups of people have stereotypes about other groups of people, but that doesn't nessecary equate to racism.

so when you create a negative blanket opinion of a group of people based on race what is it?

And I actually don't think black folks are really racist, because we are not condescending and malicious towards other groups. A lot of what may be deemed "racists" by blacks is really a defense mechanism and distrust from blacks having been ****ted on for so long.

…w…t….f? really? I mean really? That’s your defense for racism? “Black racism is only perceived as racism but really it’s a defense mechanism?” … I’m not even sure how to respond to that honestly.

Look here man. Your username is Brown_Pride, so I know you're dug into your position. I'm just playing devil's advocate and trying offer a different side. Or is your brown pride so strong that you disrgard other ethnic groups?

Just for some history, I chose this name my sophomore year in highschool so meh. I am proud to be brown, but not blindingly so, ergo my calling the whining BS. I do have a certain perspective as an Hispanic man so sure I can Identify with OUR plight a little better. This in no way limits my ability to identify with the crap other groups go through, if anything I view YOUR problems as mine and mine as yours because at the core the inequality that is used to screw me over is used to screw you over too and it’s perpetuated by the same groups of people.

I actually go out of my way to promote unity in diversity, but I can honestly admit I get annoyed by the petty ethnic battles that SOME Latinos try to engage in. I wish somebody from the Latino community would speak up about this. I can't tell you how many Mexicans vs. Blacks, Mexicans vs. Asians, Mexicans vs. Arabs nonsense I've had to quell down. My position is how immigration affects ALL people, not just one ethnic group.

then we see eye to eye and I too wish that ALL minority groups would quite squabbling over who got fuked the worst and come together to change things. I just find it ironic and a little odd that you point to Hispanics over and over again

 

[RugbyMan]

I believe deportation is right when they are caught, I believe the influx of immigration will subside (which it already has, though I’d been saying this for ages), I believe you cannot stop all things that are illegal, though you should try, and we do try. I don’t believe in the “this was our land” argument.

Deportation is right only when they are caught? So they come in, get caught, get deported, and then come back again without getting caught. So they should be able to stay then? We know that immigration has subsided because the economy has slowed. When/if the economy gets going again immigration will pick back up.

Um well yeah people in az are fuggin stupid. No seriously they are and this issue only lends to their cohesiveness and veracity. White folks in az don’t give two shyts if Hispanics think they are racist, most wear that shyt like a badge of honor. We are QUICKLY turning into one of the worst States in the country. IF someone doesn’t speak English, stands on the side of the road looking for work and pays in cash he could also be called my grandfather, who happens to be 100% American. There are entire towns in AZ where Spanish is the norm. And there’s no front, a Mexican national and a large number of Hispanic americans only differ in location of birth. In AZ this is a hot button issue simply because it’s being worked into one. Overall affect of illegals on the economy has been found to be negligible (source: Congressional Budget office during Bush’s tenure). IF the argument is an economic on then it’s not a really good one. If it’s a “Legal” one then legally SB1070 opens up to many doors for it to be used in so many wrong ways. It’s just a horribly written law.

Sorry, but I do think english should be the primary language. I actually think everybody should speak 2-3 languages, with english being the primary one. Too many things get lost in translation and there are too many misunderstandings that lead to bullshyt because people can't understand each other. A common language solidifies a nation, which is more desirable to me than this divided landscape we live in. I think on a national level the effects of illegal immigration may be neglible (neglible, but not positive). But on a statewide level, especially in the Southwest, immigration has really proved to be an economic bane. Can't speak for your state, but here welfare fraud and identity theft run rampant. Public resources get sucked dry. And then the school districts are being crippled by having to use exorbant amounts of money on "New Arrival" programs, but not getting the tax dollars to offset the costs. Teachers are getting laid off left and right so that school districts can cut cost (this is not solely blamed on illegal immigration, but it is a sizeable factor). And this is my primary argument that decisions need to be made for EVERYBODY and not a certain demographic in order to gain political points. The Dream Act is a hot botton issue. I actually think it should be edited and revised to cut out the fat, but then ultimately passed. But according to the Congressional Budget Office the Dream Act would add "more than $5 billion to the federal deficit". And it'd be funded mostly by Americans. So there are tangible economic arguments with illegal immigration.

As a citizen if I see a cop pulling someone over and I SUSPECT that person to be illegal and I see the cop let him go without checking his residency status I can sue the police department for not doing its job. I.E. IF as an American I get pulled over and don’t have my ID I run into all sorts of trouble if a cop wants to be an ass about things, and honestly I’ve already had so many issue with ass like cops that I really don’t trust the half of them here in phoenix…and I Have like 6 cousins in law enforcement.

Being able to sue cops for not forcefully enforcing the law is a trash provision.

I think the whining is BS. You played the game, you got caught, go back and come again like everyone else has had to.
From an American stand point what are we going to do? Build a giant wall , militarize the boarder , imprison everyone who breaks the same law over and over? each of those cures is worse than the disease.

I don't think there's a need to build walls and roll out the military. Actually enforcing the laws will lead to some self-deportations and will deter more from coming in illegaly. The argument is that the Border Patrol doesn't have the resources or manpower to effectively enforce immigration. However, if the US Government gave a small chunk of the money it spends on policing the world, and put that money into policing its own stuff at home, there'd be a drastic change. NAFTA should be torn up so that Mexican farmers can start making a decent living again and don't have to work like indentured servants picking crops over here. There's a lot of things that can be done for the well being of all parties involved, but I don't think neither mass amnesty nor mass deportations are the answer.

The proximity is important in that it adds to the complexity of the problem. Preferential treatment is NOT what I’m saying at all. I’m just saying that when you literally have families divided by a line in the sand it’s not going to make sense to a lot of people.

I have family spread out all over the world. I'm American, they're not. *shrugs shoulders* And this line in the sand you speak of has been there since the 1800s.

I also bring it up because there’s typically a “culture” argument assigned to threads like these and really it’s more for that than anything else. MOST countries that share boarders with other countries have cultural merging near their boarders, i.e. the southwest is very Hispanic, in both culture and ethnic make up; making the “they don’t Americanize argument” silly IMHO.

Why are some Latinos so terrified of "Americanizing" or being called a "gringo"? It strikes people odd that somebody would risk life and limb to get into the country, but then seem to reject many of the countries values in order to cling onto the "old country" values that they just escaped. I mean there is a reason people trek days through the desert or nearly drown on flimsy rafts to get here. And I ask because other immigrant groups seem to embrace Americanism more than Latinos, and I think alot of anti-Latino immigrant sentiments are because of this.

 

[RugbyMan]

I can see your point and do agree that the WAY racism is brought up is sorta sideways in some cases, but honestly racism is racism in my eyes. That being said black people are racist, white people are racist and brown people are racist, what’s your point? Racism exists, you’re just asking me to accept that because brown people can be racist (like everyone else) they shouldn’t ask to not be treated differently? If that’s the case then you’re whole argument on this went moot when you started calling white people cacs. You’re being racist, does that then mean that the plight of black people should be ignored because you’d decided to show your racism? The obvious answer is no, at least to me. There are similarities between the black experience and the Hispanic experience, failing to recognize this only strengthens the people committing these acts on BOTH groups cause guess what, IT”S THE SAME GROUP OF PEOPLE.

You and I are of different minds on the racism tip. I may be wrong, but you seem to imply that racism is a natural thing, whereas I don't think it is at all. But why are you detracting and bouncing around other ethnic groups when I specifically asked about the racism Latinos exhibit? I will admit some of the foolishness that black folks engage in, but why is every thing in the Latino community justified? And IF you think racism is natural, then shouldn't racial profiling be natural, which would mean it shouldn't be fought because its a battle that goes against the natural human state? And I was waiting for you to bring up my use of the word "cac" and I knew you'd use this argument. Right or wrong, I use cac to distinguish a certain segment of the white community. All white people are not cacs. A cac is the obnoxious, condescening, imperialistic white person that views [all] minorities as pawns to be dispensed so that "white privilege" can be maintained. I know there are plenty of white people that marched with MLK, supported the Underground Railroad, were horrified by Nazi Germany etc. So I use cac to point out the segment that knowingly does harm to the world. And to answer your question, no, I think if I'm a racist bigot then I can't be appauled when racism is directed at me. I'm receiving exactly what I'm putting out.

The moment you decide to make the civil rights movement a “black thing” you detract from what it accomplished, and what it accomplished was a GREAT things…not just for blacks but for people and their civil rights.

The Civil Right Movement isn't a black thing, its a civil rights thing. Unless there's genocide happening or a horrific natural disaster or something, I think immigration is a luxury thing.

No quite the opposite. It appeared to me like you were saying because brown people can be racist they should not comment on being racist, the logical conclusion then is that since ALL people can be racist NO ONE should comment. Isn’t that where that line of thinking leads? And is that your line of thinking?

Not saying no one should comment on racism. I'm just saying it lessens one's argument if they are exhibiting racism themselves. If a klansmen says that some Asian guy hurt his feelings because the Asian guy was saying mean racist things, people wouldn't take the klansmen's complaint all that serious.

so when you create a negative blanket opinion of a group of people based on race what is it?

Stereotyping and being prejudice.

…w…t….f? really? I mean really? That’s your defense for racism? “Black racism is only perceived as racism but really it’s a defense mechanism?” … I’m not even sure how to respond to that honestly.

You seem like a smart chap, so I don't understand how you can't see this. Prejudice and stereotyping are things taught to people over the course of their lives. Racism is driven by intent, and I don't think black people really intend to degrade other demorgraphics of people or set up petty ethnic battles with them. I don't see black people refusing service to other ethnic groups like I've had Hispanics do to me. I don't see blacks buying buildings, and then refusing to lease space to any other ethnic groups because they only want blacks in there, like I've seen Hispanics do. I don't see black folks become union bosses, and then only hire other black folks and cipher out the other ethnic groups, like I see Hispanics do etc. That's exhibiting racism to me. Cracking jokes on white people or mocking a spanish accent are ignorant and petty. But I don't see black folks really do racist shyt unless there's a threat from other ethnic groups. I'm obviously speaking in broad generalizations for the purpose of efficient convo, but it doesn't detract from the reality of how things are. What's ironic about all this, is that if Hispanics stopped making so many things a Hispanic vs. [insert ethnic group] battle, then most other ethnic groups would get behind the Hispanic cause. All marginilzed groups have a common enemy.

Just for some history, I chose this name my sophomore year in highschool so meh. I am proud to be brown, but not blindingly so, ergo my calling the whining BS. I do have a certain perspective as an Hispanic man so sure I can Identify with OUR plight a little better. This in no way limits my ability to identify with the crap other groups go through, if anything I view YOUR problems as mine and mine as yours because at the core the inequality that is used to screw me over is used to screw you over too and it’s perpetuated by the same groups of people.

I was just asking. If a poster is named Black_Pride or White_Power it can be viewed that they're biased and dug into a position.

then we see eye to eye and I too wish that ALL minority groups would quite squabbling over who got fuked the worst and come together to change things. I just find it ironic and a little odd that you point to Hispanics over and over again

Only way I see minority groups coming together is if people get over this overzealous ethnic/cultural pride and embrace themselves as individuals. You can't help who you were born, but you can help what you become. But many people don't reach their full potential because they restrict their lives with self-imposed cultural barriers. And I only point to Hispanics because where I live they've picked the most battles, and this thread is on illegal immigration, which draws in commentary on Latino culture

 

[Brown_Pride]

Deportation is right only when they are caught? So they come in, get caught, get deported, and then come back again without getting caught. So they should be able to stay then? We know that immigration has subsided because the economy has slowed. When/if the
economy gets going again immigration will pick back up.

IF they come back they get deported again. When the economy get’s going again they wont need to blame someone and it’ll go back to how it was before shyt hit the fan, an inconvenient truth with conveniently priced produce.

Sorry, but I do think english should be the primary language. I actually think everybody should speak 2-3 languages, with english being the primary one. Too many things get lost in translation and there are too many misunderstandings that lead to bull**** because people can't understand each other. A common language solidifies a nation, which is more desirable to me than this divided landscape we live in. I think on a national level the effects of illegal immigration may be neglible (neglible, but not positive). But on a statewide level, especially in the Southwest, immigration has really proved to be an economic bane. Can't speak for your state, but here welfare fraud and identity theft run rampant. Public resources get sucked dry. And then the school districts are being crippled by having to use exorbant amounts of money on "New Arrival" programs, but not getting the tax dollars to offset the costs. Teachers are getting laid off left and right so that school districts can cut cost (this is not solely blamed on illegal immigration, but it is a sizeable factor). And this is my primary argument that decisions need to be made for EVERYBODY and not a certain demographic in order to gain political points. The Dream Act is a hot botton issue. I actually think it should be edited and revised to cut out the fat, but then ultimately passed. But according to the Congressional Budget Office the Dream Act would add "more than $5 billion to the federal deficit". And it'd be funded mostly by Americans. So there are tangible economic arguments with illegal immigration.

Well school districts in AZ are funded via property tax and those taxes get paid regardless of who lives in them. The only time we lose funding is at a federal level and that only occurs when people don’t fill out census info which surprise surprise illegals are afraid to fill one out. Just saying. Also cutting school budgets, in AZ at least is pretty common and it has little to do with immigration so much as it has to do with our politicians simply not giving a fuk.

Oh and FYI kids BORN HERE are citizens, ILLEGAL children don’t account for much, but “anchor” children as some call them, sure they go to school, but they are also citizens and it is their right to do so.
Michael P. McDonald: Did Arizona Shoot Itself in the Foot?

Being able to sue cops for not forcefully enforcing the law is a trash provision.

Agreed.

I don't think there's a need to build walls and roll out the military. Actually enforcing the laws will lead to some self-deportations and will deter more from coming in illegaly. The argument is that the Border Patrol doesn't have the resources or manpower to effectively enforce immigration. However, if the US Government gave a small chunk of the money it spends on policing the world, and put that money into policing its own stuff at home, there'd be a drastic change. NAFTA should be torn up so that Mexican farmers can start making a decent living again and don't have to work like indentured servants picking crops over here. There's a lot of things that can be done for the well being of all parties involved, but I don't think neither mass amnesty nor mass deportations are the answer.

agreed to a degree. But what of repeat offenders? We just gonna jail them up? Talk about “the wrong thing”. We turn a consuming, PRODUCTIVE person into a 40-50k a year liability? If you want that “negligible” to turn into “economically debilitating” then start jailing repeat offenders for years on end.

I have family spread out all over the world. I'm American, they're not. *shrugs shoulders* And this line in the sand you speak of has been there since the 1800s.

Why are some Latinos so terrified of "Americanizing" or being called a "gringo"? It strikes people odd that somebody would risk life and limb to get into the country, but then seem to reject many of the countries values in order to cling onto the "old country" values that they just escaped. I mean there is a reason people trek days through the desert or nearly drown on flimsy rafts to get here. And I ask because other immigrant groups seem to embrace Americanism more than Latinos, and I think alot of anti-Latino immigrant sentiments are because of this.

Again I cite proximity. When other groups come here they are completely detached from their native homes, though they tried to set up mini cities where ever they landed (china town) for example over time those places eventually become more and more Americanized, BUT they will always remain a cultural anomaly from the American norm in many ways. The difference with this current influx of immigrants is that “china town” is the southwest. In time usually 2-4 generations (roughly 90-150 years) (Princeton University - Massey study shows rapid loss of Spanish language among Mexican immigrants in the United States)
Fact of the matter is that Hispanics are “Americanizing” just fine. For some antidotal evidence I point to both my kids and myself. I’m 3rd generation and understand Spanish almost completely but speak it pretty poorly, love the food, know the culture but have no ties with mexico, my kids are 4th generation and aside from Spanish surnames are far removed from “mexico” to the point that the little b*stards don’t even like salsa. Just saying by the 5th gen my last name, while Spanish, will be all but “American” in every sense of the word, perhaps keeping certain things. Think Italian American in Jersey or something along those lines.

You and I are of different minds on the racism tip. … And to answer your question, no, I think if I'm a racist bigot then I can't be appauled when racism is directed at me. I'm receiving exactly what I'm putting out.

Ah so it’s cool for me to fling around the N word then? Not in a racist way but just you know. Or is it ok as long as a thrown an “A” at the end of it? Racism is in a sense natural, in that we categorize things, BUT it’s not natural for people to categorize by race as we see it today, that is a learned habit.
Racism is racism regardless of how racist you are. The rules don’t go out the window, they sting might not be the same but ultimately a black panther or MeCha type organization full of racist grouping up and hanging a neo nazi because he is white is still racism.

You seem like a smart chap, … like I've seen Hispanics do.

Well first off black and brown relations have always been stretched in bad ways. Secondly your experience hardly reflects “society” at large, at least that’s the premise I’m working with here because IN MY EXPERIENCE black folk can be just as exclusionary.

I don't see black folks become union bosses, and then only hire other black folks and cipher out the other ethnic groups, like I see Hispanics do etc.

LOL funny cause my cousin in DC paints quite a different tale when it comes to being hired out that way…

That's exhibiting racism to me. Cracking jokes on white people or mocking a spanish accent are ignorant and petty. But I don't see black folks really do racist **** unless there's a threat from other ethnic groups.

so you’re saying black racism is only defensive…but it is racism yes?

I'm obviously speaking in broad generalizations for the purpose of efficient convo, but it doesn't detract from the reality of how things are.

no actually it does. It paints a reality that we can’t verify, I’m not even going to say it’s wrong, I’m just going to ask for facts.

What's ironic about all this, is that if Hispanics stopped making so many things a Hispanic vs. [insert ethnic group] battle, then most other ethnic groups would get behind the Hispanic cause. All marginilzed groups have a common enemy.

The irony is that I could say the same thing about blacks.

Only way I see minority groups coming together is … commentary on Latino culture

Well rest assured that your experience, while very real, isn’t the end all of the “hispanic/black” experience in America.
Do Blacks and Hispanics Get Along? | Pew Social & Demographic Trends

I can’t deny that there are SOME Hispanics who are racist as fuk, especially towards black people, I’ve seen the same shyt from some old black heads out here in az too though. Antidotal though and I know this.

Ultimately for black brown relations I suspect “time” more than anything will hem that up.

As for immigration…

 

[88m3]

Black people hate Hispanic people twism is proof

 

[theworldismine13]

Black people hate Hispanic people twism is proof

is there a law agaisnt hating hispanic people?

 

[Type Username Here]

is there a law agaisnt hating hispanic people?

 

[theworldismine13]

im just asking a question, i dont love or hate anybody

 

[Type Username Here]

im just asking a question, i dont love or hate anybody

You can make a case that certain civil rights laws pertaining to fair treatment of all races by private institutions constitutes a law against hating a certain group of people. i concede that it's a flimsy argument at best.

 

[theworldismine13]

You can make a case that certain civil rights laws pertaining to fair treatment of all races by private institutions constitutes a law against hating a certain group of people. i concede that it's a flimsy argument at best.

Yeah. It's wrong to violate the civil rights of a person, but you can hate anybody you want to hate, I'm not saying I do, I'm just keeping my options open

 

[yesiambowling]

is there a law agaisnt hating hispanic people?

You can say or think whatever you want. The moment you take action though...

 

[theworldismine13]

You can say or think whatever you want. The moment you take action though...

yeah, the point is that its the rule of law that protects people not whether somebody likes you or not

in this immigration thing, im just arguing for the rule of law, im not fighting racism

 

[RugbyMan]

IF they come back they get deported again. When the economy get’s going again they wont need to blame someone and it’ll go back to how it was before shyt hit the fan, an inconvenient truth with conveniently priced produce.

This is ridiculous. So just keep deporting them in an endless cycle, until one day they don't get caught and they can just stay here forever. So don't set up any deterrents for illegal immigration, just be reactionary towards it?

Well school districts in AZ are funded via property tax and those taxes get paid regardless of who lives in them. The only time we lose funding is at a federal level and that only occurs when people don’t fill out census info which surprise surprise illegals are afraid to fill one out. Just saying. Also cutting school budgets, in AZ at least is pretty common and it has little to do with immigration so much as it has to do with our politicians simply not giving a fuk.

You're all numbers and statistics, but you don't account for the nuances of a situation. Using your property tax argument, property taxes are set with the historical figure that a household is generally 4 people (this is what household statistics are generally based off of). So property taxes are collected with the understanding that there are 4 people in a household. What happens quite often down here is that family members bring over their relatives from Mexico or wherever, and households can reach as much as 10+ people. So while the government is bringing in taxes for 4 people, its dishing out services for over 10 people, and I've grown up seeing this all around me. Hell, a couple of months ago I saw ICE raid a house with 17 people (10 kids - 4 here illegaly) living in a 3 bedroom house, and the people were living off welfare and all the kids were in school. So do the math, and you'll see its a net loss.

Oh and FYI kids BORN HERE are citizens, ILLEGAL children don’t account for much, but “anchor” children as some call them, sure they go to school, but they are also citizens and it is their right to do so.

Anchor babies drain school budgets. Harsh, but the truth. Don't know what to do with that.

agreed to a degree. But what of repeat offenders? We just gonna jail them up? Talk about “the wrong thing”. We turn a consuming, PRODUCTIVE person into a 40-50k a year liability? If you want that “negligible” to turn into “economically debilitating” then start jailing repeat offenders for years on end.

Yes. Jail repeat offenders. It'll be costly in the short run, but in the long run it'd be a deterrent for illegal crossings (which should drastically reduce deportation and surveillance cost) and it'll signify that America is serious about enforcing immigration law. If you're foolish enough to keep crossing, knowing the repercussions are a yearlong jail bid, then I don't want to hear any protesting or whining when you get caught the 3rd time and have to go upstate.

Again I cite proximity.

I still don't understand what proximity has to do with it. I understand its cultural influence in the southwest, just like there's a strong Carribbean influence in Florida. But there seems to be a feeling in the Latino community that because Mexico and the US share a border, that immigration laws should be more lax for Mexicans.

Ah so it’s cool for me to fling around the N word then? Not in a racist way but just you know. Or is it ok as long as a thrown an “A” at the end of it? Racism is in a sense natural, in that we categorize things, BUT it’s not natural for people to categorize by race as we see it today, that is a learned habit.
Racism is racism regardless of how racist you are. The rules don’t go out the window, they sting might not be the same but ultimately a black panther or MeCha type organization full of racist grouping up and hanging a neo nazi because he is white is still racism.

Your views on racism...
One again, you don't account for nuances and subleties. You think a black person being called "******" before they're hung from a tree, or castrated, or buried alive, can be put in the same category as a poster nonchalantly using the term "cac"? This is why blacks don't take nonblacks serious in racial debates, because nonblacks always want to find ways to qualify their racism (you even made a "Reverse Racism" thread). Racism is about intent. Intent to harm, degrade, humiliate etc. Of course a Black Panther hanging a neo nazi because he's white is racism. I would step in and try to stop it. The same way I check black people for doing other petty shyt. Do you check brown people for using the n-word? Do you counter the racist ideologies that permeate Latin America? You come on here trying to check black people for using derogatory terms, and while the terms may be ignorant, they are not used to intentionally belittle other groups of people. The intent is not the same. I don't need to speak much more on this because the posters are doing a good job in your other thread.

Well first off black and brown relations have always been stretched in bad ways. Secondly your experience hardly reflects “society” at large, at least that’s the premise I’m working with here because IN MY EXPERIENCE black folk can be just as exclusionary.

They are stretched, but I assure you it was not because of black sentiment. The Spanish set-up their idiotic system of classifying every color tone into a specific category (with obviously the darkest being the least desirable), and this mindset is still ingrained in a lot of Latin America. If we're keeping it real, Latin America is arguably the most divisive place on earth. Venezuelans hate Colombians, Puerto Ricans hate Dominicans, Nicaraguans hate El Salvadoreans, everybody hates Mexicans etc. Its this dumb-ass petty mindset that discourages me from welcoming in millions of people that have divisive mentalities, and have particular negative feelings for blacks and indigenous. Trust me, if Latin America was a beacon of tolerance and enlightment, I'd welcome people in with open arms. Hell, they could crash at my crib. Every time I bring up Latin American racism, you counter with a "well... well... black people are racist too!" Don't sit here and act like black folks are aggresively racist towards Latinos. Black "racism" is usually a defense mechanism, which brings me to my next point....

so you’re saying black racism is only defensive…but it is racism yes?

I'd say most of the times its not racism, because its intent is not to harm and demean. It may be ignorant and prejudice, but most "black racism" comes from a lifetime of black people being treated like shyt. There are black people that develop negative views of other ethnic groups because so much vitriol has been spit their way over a lifetime. You brought up the example of old black men?? Can you blame them for feeling that way when they've seen their leaders get assissinated, been water-hosed on the street, seen black folks murdered with impunity? They are justified in their distrust of other groups, but they're actually quite harmless. If you want to shine a light on black racism, you need better examples.

no actually it does. It paints a reality that we can’t verify, I’m not even going to say it’s wrong, I’m just going to ask for facts.

You downplay my experience like I'm some ignorant twat. I travel alot, I've lived in multiple locations in the US, and I've been all over the world. I'm not some small-town, tunnel-vision simpleton that views the world in a simple manner. You ask for facts and statistics, but reality is not solely constructed on these things. There are things we have called "perception" and "common sense" that guide us through life and allow us to make educated readings of the world around us.

The irony is that I could say the same thing about blacks.

Here we go again with bouncing it back to blacks

Well rest assured that your experience, while very real, isn’t the end all of the “hispanic/black” experience in America.
Do Blacks and Hispanics Get Along? | Pew Social & Demographic Trends

More stats

I can’t deny that there are SOME Hispanics who are racist as fuk, especially towards black people, I’ve seen the same shyt from some old black heads out here in az too though. Antidotal though and I know this.

Bouncing it back to blacks again.... is it so hard for a Hispanic to fully acknowledge the unchecked racism Hispanics exhibit??

Ultimately for black brown relations I suspect “time” more than anything will hem that up.

Time is not enough. It'll take a conscious effort to hem it up. I know a lot of black people are very willing to get behind any cause that reeks of racism or injustice, but not if the group they're getting behind is also racist. I think blacks have already extended a hand to Latinos and its up to Latinos to shake it. Furthermore, racism is a learned thing, and they only way to counter it is to re-teach yourself to see people as individuals with attributes first, and then their race, gender, religion etc. second. If you look in your phonebook or your immediate circle, and everybody looks and acts somewhat like you, while you may not be racist, you're not contributing to ending it by only staying in your cultural comfort zone.