Dirk passes Garnett on all-time scoring list (14th)

[Ohms Law]

KG is the better all-around player than Dirk. KG is only player I know beside Dennis Rodman can successfully guard all 5 position. Unfortunately, with the skills KG has in the low post, he didn't use skills often to dominate the paint. Fans who have watched KG since he was a rookie are always going to remember him as the player that run from the pressure in the 4th quarter. Dirk always play the game with more heart and fire than KG. I have seen Dirk erased big lead deficit and took over games. You will never get that from Kevin. Dude was notorious for not stepping up as the Man to take over games to lead his team to a glorious victory.

 

[ManBearPig]

A lot of morons here

 

[SwagKingKong]

Did I say he couldn't close games at all? No, I said you build around him with wings that can though.


Dirk raised his game in the playoffs, even with his stinker against the Warriors he still had better playoff runs (and numbers) than KG and more impact. You can point to 2004 as his one great run, Dirk has several, including one where he completely and utterly blacked out on KG.

No, but you said he needed closers on his team which is factually wrong. He has already proven he could win a championship as the "closer" and that was in the last year of his prime. I'm pretty confident he would be able to do it at his peak also. Not to mention that I think it's pretty silly to talk about closers like their role, specifically is any more important than other roles on a team (i.e. defensive anchors etc.).

Sure, Dirk is a great playoff performer, I'm not arguing otherwise. But it's a much smaller sample size than regular season and the player he's being compared to has an even smaller sample size of playoff performances in his prime to really say anything other than both were high impact players nomatter if it was the regular season or playoffs. Which isn't surprising considering the whole argument that some players are elevated onto some mythical level during the playoffs has been debunked and generally, players perform the same whether it's the playoffs or regular season. Raw numbers look different because of pace but otherwise it's basically the same. Thats why the regular season is a much better sample size to work with considering we have 600+ prime / peak games to draw conclusions from. And btw, in the series you're referring to Dirk "blacking out" on KG, you're leaving out three facts; the series was three games (sample size issue), Garnett himself posted 24 ppg, 18.7 rpg, 5 apg, 1.7 spg, 1.7 bpg and finally, Dirk was not guarded by KG during the series, so he didn't black out on KG. (Flip Saunders scheme was at fault here and really, Dirk got really, really hot over 3 games).

And no, Dirk wasn't more impactful than KG, what are you basing that on? If you look at adjusted plus minus data, the best available way to measure impact IMO, Garnett beats out Dirk in both primes and peaked higher. he even measures out higher than Duncan in his prime / peak. Not to mention that if we look at something as simple as PER, Garnett has him beat over his prime / peak. And remember, PER overrates volume scoring and underrates defensive players, so there's that.

 

[SwagKingKong]

Also, just to add playoff numbers -

Big Germ (128 games)
25.9ppg, 10.3rpg, 2.6apg, 1.1spg, 0.9bpg 46%


KG (131 games)
19.2ppg, 11.1rpg, 3.5apg, 1.4bpg, 1.3spg 47%

You can't use the conference excuse, and you can't even use the "He's played more games" excuse. When the playoffs come into play, Dirk turned into a superstar whereas KG didn't step it up like he did.

Why the hell wouldn't you place numbers within its context? It's highly relevant to point out that a majority of Garnetts playoff games are out of his prime, while the majority of Dirks games are in his prime. I can't even take you seriously at this point.

Dirk didn't turn into anything he wasn't otherwise in the playoffs, this is a myth that has been debunked several times. Players are the same whether it's the regular season or playoffs, the difference is minimal. Do you honestly believe that players just turn into something they're usually not because it's the playoffs? That's just stupid, superstar players are what they are. all the time.

 

[SwagKingKong]

The anti-dirk arguments are comically disingenuous and embarrassingly specious. Some of the rationale in this thread is just

Cats are legit arguing that because people used to think Dirk was soft and not better than KG, that it somehow detracts from the reality of him evolving into a better player? That's like reasoning because people questioned Bron's heart, leadership, and nerves at various points, he can't be recognized as better than a laundry list of players at this point. Past perception isn't particularly relevant. KG has a remarkable all-around game. History has shown he simply isn't an alpha dog on the offensive end. He's like an even better Pippen - which is no insult. He's awesome. It's just that it's more difficult to build around a player like him than it is to build Dirk, as evidenced by Dirk's teams spending a decade winning 50-67 games. People like to play the nonsensical game of hyping up Nash and Finley, but when Nash left and became MVSteve, I notice Nash never sniffed a finals, while Dirk IMMEDIATELY went to one.

It's absurd to hold Dirk's loss as a 1 seed against him while somehow glossing over KG's inabilty for years to even lead a team to a fukking 8 seed. Such nonsense.

Patrick Ewing's inside out game and his anchoring of the Knicks' defense took his team on multiple playoff runs and almost won them a title. That despite never having a viable all star level player on the wing. Give him Pierce and Allen, and we might view him quite differently. I view him kind of similarly to KG, actually. KG to me is kind of P. Ewing as a PF, or Pippen as a PF. Which isn't an insult by any measure. I have no idea how it became some kind of world class insult to say KG is an all time great player who isn't quite the building block that other all time greats are. there is absolutely nothing outlandish about that point, regardless of how egregious KG fans pretend it is.


The other thing KG stans love to toss out there is his all around brilliance based on him averaging 20, 10, and 5 bullshyt back to pretendville. Show me the season he had like that post-2006. I'll wait. It's just one of those dumb ass stats people throw out to better their defense of KG. He hasn't averaged 10 rebounds since 2006, nor has he averaged as many as 3 assists since 2007. He hasn't averaged even 16 points a game since 2007. Since his second year in the NBA - aside from last year when he was working his way back from surgery and initially playing limited minutes -Dirk has never averaged fewer than 21 points in a season. Dirk has been assisting and rebounding at pretty much the same exact rate as KG for years now. Dirk gets to the line more often, and makes FTs at a higher %. Dirk can shoot 3s, mid range shots, post, and drive. If someone tells me that KG is somehow close to equal to Dirk on offense because he averages 20-10-5 (which, by the way, he doesn't), then I know right away that person doesn't know much about basketball beyond the casual level. I'm pretty sure I read a post in this thread that tried to spin Dirk's ability to make 3s and his higher rate of drawing contact as some kind of negative. Some of these arguments are mindblowing.

KG's absolute best years on those wack ass Minny teams are slightly better than Dirk's absolute best years. But Dirk is not only more consistently outproducing KG in terms of advanced stats, his career has been one of sustained excellence or improvement as the years go on, while KG tails off. Dirk's career arc is simply more impressive than KGs, and him leading teams to two title runs (one of which he unquestionably was cheated out of), one of which was an all time bum team winning a chip, can't be brushed off as "Dirk had better teammates." also, no star player has had his supporting cast overrated more than Dirk, almost always by KG stans. You'd think all those years of the Mavs having fringe all star tweeners and Michael Finley was the equivalent of the Heat's "Big 3" or something. Arguing that Dirk isn't a better building block for a title contender on a year in, year out basis is just fukking weird and stubborn.

Also, terms like "career" and "legacy" are fundamentally tied to longevity. KG had a slightly better peak, but Dirk has had a longer, sustained prime. If a legacy was just based on a player's 5 best years, I could die in peace knowing Don Mattingly was going into Cooperstown. But that's not how legacy works.

I say all that as someone who has never been a fan of Dirk. I'm just a fan of basketball. Regardless, the debate is close. And I have no problem agreeing that KG is a more complete player than Dirk. I just don't think that means he's the easier player to build around.

You're actually the one who is way off in your analysis. It's frightning how you rely on raw numbers in your analysis of KG and completely disregard the fact that he was playing less minutes post-2006. For example, in 08 his per 36 looks awfully close to what he averaged in his prime, even in points production and this is with playing together with Ray and Pierce.

And lol at you saying Dirk has been outproducing KG in advanded stats? Would you inform me of what these are? The only thing he's been outperfoming KG in is raw scoring and scoring efficiency. Based on any other advanced data, KG clearly comes ahead in his prime / peak.

You're also arguing that KGs career tailed off which is pretty funny considering if we look at the adjusted plus and minus data, to measure impact, we'd see that Garnett, in 2012, actually measured out at exactly +5.9 which is the same number as Nowitzki and in 2013, Garnett was actually the more impactful player (4.1 for KG and 3.8 for Nowitzki).

And at last, you said that Dirk and KG has rebounded at the exact same rate these last years, which again is factually wrong. For the last five years, Dirk has a rebound percentage rate of 12 %. Garnett, during the same period, despite being two years older, has a rebound percentage rate of 16.2. Which is close to what Dirk averaged during his rebounding peak years 17.8 %. In comparison, Garnett grabbed 20.3 % of the total rebounds at his peak.

So in short, out of his prime KG grabs rebounds at a rate that is close to Dirks peak, while Dirk is grabbing rebounds at a rate that is worse than Garnetts worst rebounding season (Garnett playing SF, as a 19 year old).

 

[the cool]

Garnett disappears in the fourth quarter. Never takes a last second shot.

Dirk has led his team to 50+ wins for 10 straight years

 

[Versa]

I can't believe people are neglecting the importance of being vastly superior at rebounding, blocking shots, passing and being a defensive anchor in this KG vs Dirk debate.

I would say the multiple things KG does better than Dirk makes him the overall better player even if Dirk is a better scorer. Part of the reason Dirk has to score so much is because he sucks at stopping the opposing team from scoring.

People say you couldn't put KG on that 2011 team and get the same results. I agree, but if you think Dirk would've went to that 2008 Celtics team - which was one of the worst teams of all time the year previously - and took them to the finals you are BUGGING. That Celts team was great not just because of the addition of Allen and KG finishing top 3 in MVP voting, but also because Garnett won Defensive Player of the Year.

I'll also say I cant see how KG wouldn't get out of the first round consistently with Finley and Nash as his Robin and Alfred. Team would be WAY better defensively while still good offensively. Would've been his most talented lineup outside of the 2004 team.

 

[Versa]

People can be mad all they want, but Dirk's 2011 run does make a huge difference when comparing the two. You could argue nobody has had a better playoff run EVER than him that year. He took down Kobe, Durant/Westbrook and then LeBron/Wade/Bosh in the Finals and he was KILLING it in almost every single 4th quarter. I can't think of anyone who hit more big shots in a single run than Dirk in 2011. It seemed like he did it in every game. It was incredible.

I would say that put him in the conversation, but not ahead of KG. I think winning DPOY and averaging 10+ rebounds for even one season would've made this argument a lot more compelling for Dirk.