Dirk won a ring by himself no super groupies needed

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

@mbewane breh I forgot to tell u I was just in Paris at the beginning of the week.

shyt was hotter than a mug. How bout their was a near terrorist attack and I was less than a mile away from that shyt and didn't find out till the day after


Paris traffic is the worse

The food is goat tho


Was hanging around boulevard de clichy but didn't wanna veer into Barbes. Heard they don't play out there

I'm heading over in about a week.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

That's not a "meaningful" look at it, at all. You can't just simplify it to "advantage" for each position, knowing full well the advantage margins aren't the same from position to position - especially the advantage at small forward - you ain't slick with that. Never mind the fact that comparing positions is circumstantial in a series.

Stop being dishonest.

It's 10 times more meaningful than the OP.


At least comparing position-by-position gives you a better idea than stating nothing but the 2-3 stars on the top. And everyone here knows that Lebron is the SF in question, so there's nothing dishonest about it.

Obviously nothing short of a 3,000 word scouting report and breakdown of the progress of the series is sufficient to fully compare the teams. But keeping it simple for now, within the context of the matchups and roles, Dirk's advantage over Bosh was roughly similar to Wade's advantage over Terry. That means that Lebron's advantage over Marion had to overcome:

The Heat running a nearly useless PG against a competent all-around player in Kidd.
The Heat running a nearly useless center against a defensive monster in Chandler.
The Heat having a bare-bones bench against a team of competent players who filled their roles well.
The Heat having almost nothing in terms of coaching scheme against a veteran coach who employed the best zone defense in the league that year.

And Lebron's advantage over Marion wasn't enough to overcome that, mostly because of the zone scheme backed by Chandler on defense going up against the useless Joel Anthony and Bibby along with a lack of shooters on offense.


It's a bit aggravating that you make ONE post in an 18-page thread to single out something I said which was significantly more meaningful than the dumb crap I'm arguing against.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Early and often?

The man went to two finals and three WC finals in his career. This is when the Lakers/Spurs were monsters.

Bums like CP3 and Carmelo that get crazy love on the coli would BEG for a career like that. Try to put things in perspective.

Yes, 3 WC Finals in 18 years of play. That's plenty of years where he lost "early and often".

Bringing in CP3 and Carmelo is pointless because I'M NOT THE ONE SAYING THAT PLAYERS CAN WIN RINGS BY THEMSELVES. I'm not ripping on Dirk - I haven't ripped on Dirk once this entire thread. I'm tearing apart the stupid idea that anyone, including Dirk, can win a ring by themself...you know, the whole title of the thread.

And it ain't all about the Lakers/Spurs. How about these years?

2004: Prime 25-year-old Dirk, has Steve Nash, Michael Finley, Antwan Jamison, Antoine Walker, Marquis Daniels, and Josh Howard all in their prime, yet they only get a #5 seed and lose to the #4 seed Kings in just 5 games (who lose to the Timberwolves, who lose to the Lakers, who lose to the Pistons).

2005: Now with Jerry Stackhouse, Jason Terry, Michael Finley, Josh Howard, Marquis Daniels, and Erick Dampier, just a #4 seed and lose to Suns in 2nd round.

2007: Of course, the famous year where Dirk gets MVP and the #1 seed but they lose in 6 in the first round to the #8 seed Baron Davis Warriors.

2008: Only a #7 seed, lose in the 1st round again, this time in just 5 games to CP3's Hornets.

2009: Only a #6 seed, first round upset but then lose in 5 to the Nuggets.

2010: Get the #2 seed, but lose in the 1st round loss to a #7 Spurs team that wasn't even good that year and was going down to the Suns in the next round.

2012: Without Chandler, they follow up their title by getting swept in 4 in the 1st round by the Thunder.

2013-2017: Five straight years without another playoff series win, not even making it twice and getting beat in the 1st round the other three times.


We're talking someone who has 6 missed playoffs and 8 first-round losses. Was Dirk suddenly a better player in 2011 than he'd ever been? Or is it not a TEAM victory?

 

[Professor Emeritus]

breh you obviously lack reading comprehension

i specifically said he was the only all star THAT YEAR... and one of two HOF... i did not say he had no one.. i didn't say he played 1-2 on 13.. i did not say what nikkas was doing in 2010.. i didn't say anything else you pointlessly said

then you take your stanning to the next level... and name years where people did none of what i said and go into a rant

i specifically said no team will EVER WIN A RING LIKE THAT AGAIN... you go on to name a conference championship... the time tony parker was the only all star while playing with 3 other HOFers.. a make believe scenario where boston WOULD have lost IF they played... and some other stupid shyt

so i'll stick to MY point until it's proven wrong... there will never be another team in the NBA, that has 1 all star that year and 2 aging HOFers who win a ring. not when these teams are teaming up with no less than a big 3 in their primes to win

And 2014 doesn't perfectly fit the claim you just made because....?

 

[Professor Emeritus]

If Kidd and Chandler went so great yet they went straight from the Mavs to the Knicks and didn't win shyt with Carmelo.

The same Carmelo that was in his prime (28 yrs old) in 2012.

The same Carmelo that nikkas dikk ride 24/7 on here.

And if Dirk is so great then why did he get a #7 seed and swept out of the first round the very next year when Chandler left?


Because it is a TEAM that wins a title, not individual players.


Dirk didn't win a tile by himself - that's just stupid. And Kidd and Chandler aren't so great that they automatically produce titles either, even with Carmelo (who I don't dikk ride at all, so I don't know why you even mentioning that bullshyt).

What produces title contenders is having a full TEAM where all the roles are filled within a scheme that maximizes the potential of the team and they have chemistry together. Having scorers, ballhandlers, shooters, perimeter defenders, rim protectors, and rebounders, working together and competent at every position within the right scheme.

 

[The Devil's Advocate]

And 2014 doesn't perfectly fit the claim you just made because....?

i really do hope you're trolling

tim duncan - HOF
manu - HOF
t. parker - HOF
k. leonard - i'm going to go out on a limb and say he'll be making the HOF


there's 3 definite and possibly another for a total of 4... and you asking me how that doesn't fit the narrative of 2 HOF players on a team

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

It's 10 times more meaningful than the OP.


At least comparing position-by-position gives you a better idea than stating nothing but the 2-3 stars on the top. And everyone here knows that Lebron is the SF in question, so there's nothing dishonest about it.

To keep it a buck - both of y'all arguments ain't shyt. It's really just one disingenuous take followed by another one (as are most of the posts in here).

Obviously nothing short of a 3,000 word scouting report and breakdown of the progress of the series is sufficient to fully compare the teams.

You don't need to write out a lengthy response to put forth an "actual meaningful look at the matchup". It was dishonest that you framed your post in that manner by reducing it to some ABC, 123 matchup advantage nonsense.

But keeping it simple for now, within the context of the matchups and roles, Dirk's advantage over Bosh was roughly similar to Wade's advantage over Terry.

Wade was a definitive top-3 player heading into that season, and arguably the best player in the game - Terry was lucky to be top-50. Whereas there was a minute margin between Dirk and Bosh. Bosh had just come off a high percentage/high volume scoring season as the #1 option, and was amongst the clump of the best PFs in the game (Dirk, Stoudemire and Pau). The only thing that changed from that point until the '11 Finals was working their games in to fit in a new system (with LeBron), as their skillsets and impact were still intact.

Saying any different is just revisionism.

That means that Lebron's advantage over Marion had to overcome:

The Heat running a nearly useless PG against a competent all-around player in Kidd.
The Heat running a nearly useless center against a defensive monster in Chandler.
The Heat having a bare-bones bench against a team of competent players who filled their roles well.
The Heat having almost nothing in terms of coaching scheme against a veteran coach who employed the best zone defense in the league that year.

And Lebron's advantage over Marion wasn't enough to overcome that, mostly because of the zone scheme backed by Chandler on defense going up against the useless Joel Anthony and Bibby along with a lack of shooters on offense.

You can't marginalize the game down to matchups, especially when there's a chasm in talent/ability (at the top) and style between the two teams. I don't know what you're getting at here, but I hope to God you aren't trying to give LeBron a pass for his performance and change the covers after shytting the bed.

 

[Gangstar8]

Dirk Kobe and Hakeem only ones to do it

 

[Professor Emeritus]

i really do hope you're trolling

tim duncan - HOF
manu - HOF
t. parker - HOF
k. leonard - i'm going to go out on a limb and say he'll be making the HOF


there's 3 definite and possibly another for a total of 4... and you asking me how that doesn't fit the narrative of 2 HOF players on a team

Manu is NOT an Hall of Fame player if we're talking about what he did in the NBA (otherwise you might as well put Horry in). Ginobli will make the Basketball Hall of Fame because of the combination of his NBA tenure with his play for Argentina. If he had to rely on his NBA play, then no way in hell a scorer who never even hit 20ppg and only made 2 All-star teams his whole career is getting in.

And Kawhi was a 22-year-old averaging 12ppg in 2014. His first all-star game was still a good two years away. What he'll up doing in the rest of his career has nothing to do with what he did that year.

Are we reduced to just playing games with words now?


If you really want to look at the talent level of the two teams, it was practically the same:

2011 Mavs 1 All-star: Dirk
2014 Spurs 1 All-star: TP

2011 Mavs old HOF player: Kidd
2014 Spurs old HOF player: Duncan

2011 Mavs veteran borderline HOF: Shawn Marion (4 All-star appearances, last one 4 years earlier)
2014 Spurs veteran borderline HOF: Manu Ginobli (2 All-star appearances, last one 3 years earlier)

2011 Mavs defensive stopper: Tyson Chandler (DPOY the next year)
2014 Spurs defensive stopper: Kawhi Leonard (DPOY the next year)

2011 Mavs shooter: Jason Terry (18ppg in the playoffs, 44% from three)
2014 Spurs shooter: Danny Green (9ppg in the playoffs, 47% from three)

2011 Mavs contributors: Barea, Stevenson, Haywood, Peja
2014 Spurs contributors: Mills, Diaw, Splitter, Belinelli

2011 Mavs coaching: best zone defense in the NBA
2014 Spurs coaching: best motion offense in the NBA


They both won the same way - by having a team with only one all-star, but all the roles perfectly well-filled and a brilliant coaching scheme to take utmost advantage of their strengths.

Saying that "but the Spurs are different!" because of what Ginobli did in Argentina or what Kawhi would do in the future is ridiculous. Neither one of them was playing anyone near HOF level during the 2014 season.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

To keep it a buck - both of y'all arguments ain't shyt. It's really just one disingenuous take followed by another one (as are most of the posts in here).

You don't need to write out a lengthy response to put forth an "actual meaningful look at the matchup". It was dishonest that you framed your post in that manner by reducing it to some ABC, 123 matchup advantage nonsense.



Wade was a definitive top-3 player heading into that season, and arguably the best player in the game - Terry was lucky to be top-50. Whereas there was a minute margin between Dirk and Bosh. Bosh had just come off a high percentage/high volume scoring season as the #1 option, and was amongst the clump of the best PFs in the game (Dirk, Stoudemire and Pau). The only thing that changed from that point until the '11 Finals was working their games in to fit in a new system (with LeBron), as their skillsets and impact were still intact.

Saying any different is just revisionism.


You can't marginalize the game down to matchups, especially when there's a chasm in talent/ability (at the top) and style between the two teams. I don't know what you're getting at here, but I hope to God you aren't trying to give LeBron a pass for his performance and change the covers after shytting the bed.

You are NOT going to come in here and try to convince people that "there was a minute margin between Dirk and Bosh".

The whole idea of the thread is that Dirk won a ring by himself. I'm disputing that, but I ain't denying Dirk's greatness.

Can you imagine someone thinking of the thread, "If only Bosh had the right role players, he could have won a ring by himself too!"



Bosh was an effective scorer, you could get 20-21ppg featuring him, but Dirk was the best-shooting big man in history, a perennial top-10 scorer pulling 24-25ppg every year on much better efficiency.

Dirk was a former MVP still playing at an MVP level, in the middle of a 10-year streak of finishing top-10 in MVP voting. Bosh had never been an MVP contender, only barely slipping into the top-10 of voting ONCE a good four years earlier.

Just take the previous three years:

2008: Dirk 2nd-team All-NBA, Bosh does not make All-NBA team
2009: Dirk 1st-team All-NBA, Bosh does not make All-NBA team
2010: Dirk 2nd-team All-NBA, Bosh does not make All-NBA team

No one would ever say that 2010 Pau was on the same level as Dirk, and I'd argue that Pau was a better all-around baller than Bosh at that stage. Bosh was a strong, probably top-5 power forward, but he wasn't on Dirk's tier.


Look at the playoffs it's even worse.

By 2011 Dirk had eight postseasons where he had averaged 25+ppg and eight postseasons where he had averaged 10+ rpg. From 2008-2012 Dirk put up 27-28ppg in the playoffs in FIVE STRAIGHT postseasons.

By 2011 Bosh had only made the playoffs twice, averaging 20ppg in two first-round losses matched up against Mikki Moore and Rashard Lewis.


Bosh hadn't done shyt in the playoffs, while Dirk always was a monster in the postseason even when he lost. No one came into 2011 thinking, "Chris Bosh is going to hold his own against Dirk". He wasn't on the same level.



As far as Wade and Terry goes, Wade was a couple extra levels above Terry when 2010 started. But Terry jumped to a new place in those 2011 playoffs. He outplayed Brandon Roy, Kobe Bryant, and James Harden in the three series before the Finals. Against the Lakers in the deciding game of the WCSF, Terry punked Kobe straight up, putting up 32 points and 4 assists on 11-14 shooting to Kobe's 17 and 1 on 7-18 shooting (and for the series, Terry had 20-2-4 on ridiculous 59/68/86 splits to Kobe's 23-3-3 on 46/23/80).

And why was it that Spolstra was switching Bron onto Terry in the 4th quarters, if he wasn't giving Wade real problems? Terry still wasn't on Wade's level, but the gap wasn't as big as it had been beforehand.

 

[The Devil's Advocate]

Manu is NOT an Hall of Fame player if we're talking about what he did in the NBA (otherwise you might as well put Horry in). Ginobli will make the Basketball Hall of Fame because of the combination of his NBA tenure with his play for Argentina. If he had to rely on his NBA play, then no way in hell a scorer who never even hit 20ppg and only made 2 All-star teams his whole career is getting in.

And Kawhi was a 22-year-old averaging 12ppg in 2014. His first all-star game was still a good two years away. What he'll up doing in the rest of his career has nothing to do with what he did that year.

Are we reduced to just playing games with words now?


If you really want to look at the talent level of the two teams, it was practically the same:

2011 Mavs 1 All-star: Dirk
2014 Spurs 1 All-star: TP

2011 Mavs old HOF player: Kidd
2014 Spurs old HOF player: Duncan

2011 Mavs veteran borderline HOF: Shawn Marion (4 All-star appearances, last one 4 years earlier)
2014 Spurs veteran borderline HOF: Manu Ginobli (2 All-star appearances, last one 3 years earlier)

2011 Mavs defensive stopper: Tyson Chandler (DPOY the next year)
2014 Spurs defensive stopper: Kawhi Leonard (DPOY the next year)

2011 Mavs shooter: Jason Terry (18ppg in the playoffs, 44% from three)
2014 Spurs shooter: Danny Green (9ppg in the playoffs, 47% from three)

2011 Mavs contributors: Barea, Stevenson, Haywood, Peja
2014 Spurs contributors: Mills, Diaw, Splitter, Belinelli

2011 Mavs coaching: best zone defense in the NBA
2014 Spurs coaching: best motion offense in the NBA


They both won the same way - by having a team with only one all-star, but all the roles perfectly well-filled and a brilliant coaching scheme to take utmost advantage of their strengths.

Saying that "but the Spurs are different!" because of what Ginobli did in Argentina or what Kawhi would do in the future is ridiculous. Neither one of them was playing anyone near HOF level during the 2014 season.

breh you are doing entirely too much

i simply said we will never see a team win with 2 hofers out of their prime again... you have gone through lengths to prove a totally other point that i am not trying to make

and yes... the 4 time champion, 2 x all star, 2 time all nba, nba sixth man of the year, nba all rookie team, manu ginobili will be an nba hofer based on his nba play alone

 

[dem bath salts]

Dont remember that finals. shyt is blurry as fukk

 

[Professor Emeritus]

and yes... the 4 time champion, 2 x all star, 2 time all nba, nba sixth man of the year, nba all rookie team, manu ginobili will be an nba hofer based on his nba play alone

2003: Manu averages 9ppg on 35% shooting in the Finals, is about the 5th most important player on the squad

2005: Manu's great series, 19-6-4 on 49/39/86 shooting, 2nd or 3rd most important player on the squad and definitely the one that played 2nd-best overall in the Finals

2007: Manu averages 18ppg on 37% shooting in the Finals, 3rd most important player on the squad

2014: Manu averages 14ppg on 50% shooting, 4th most important player on the squad


Take away the "4 time champion", and that resume isn't even CLOSE to a Hall of Fame resume. And being a "4-time champion" doesn't make you a Hall of Famer when you were the 3rd or 4th best player on the squadd.

You put the fukking "NBA All-Rookie Team" on there as an accomplishment.

And 6th-man of the year.

It's basically saying that Klay and Draymond could go tomorrow and never make another All-Star game in their lives, but as long as Durant and Curry carry the Warriors to two more titles, they're all in the Hall!





Here are some old threads where this has already been argued. Almost no one other than Spurs fans thought that Manu deserved to be in the Hall based on NBA career alone.

Real talk how Is Ginoboli this automatic hall of famer?

Is Manu Ginobli a Hall of Famer?



How many guys with only 2 All-Star appearances are in the Hall, total?*




(I just realized Bill Walton fits the bill, but those two years he was an MVP, MVP runner-up, and Finals MVP whose career just got cut short by injury.)

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

You are NOT going to come in here and try to convince people that "there was a minute margin between Dirk and Bosh".

The whole idea of the thread is that Dirk won a ring by himself. I'm disputing that, but I ain't denying Dirk's greatness.

Can you imagine someone thinking of the thread, "If only Bosh had the right role players, he could have won a ring by himself too!.

In relation to the margin between Wade v. Terry - yes there was most definitely a small margin between Bosh and Dirk in 2010. The only thing that was stopping him from being neck and neck with Dirk was the ability to anchor an offense deep into the playoffs, otherwise his skillset/impact was right up there with the best PFs in the game.

That '11 Playoff-run was a purple passage, where Dirk and the rest of the squad were in a zone. They weren't necessarily more talented, but they got the right breaks at the right time and had a near-perfect balance throughout the squad. It's half the reason why despite Dirk being relatively the same player the following postseason, he was swept in the first round (due to not having the same breaks and squad, by the same team they defeated 4-1 in the previous PS).

Bosh was an effective scorer, you could get 20-21ppg featuring him, but Dirk was the best-shooting big man in history, a perennial top-10 scorer pulling 24-25ppg every year on much better efficiency.

Actually, the three previous seasons prior to going to Miami, Bosh averaged:

2009/10 - 24 ppg on 16.5 shots, 59 TS% - only 49% of his FGs were assisted (Dirk averaged 25 ppg on 18.5 shots, 58 TS% - 61% of his FGs were assisted)
2008/09 - 22.7 ppg
2007/08 - 22.3 ppg

He'd been averaging 22-23 ppg for four seasons straight until he started to hit his prime in his last season in Toronto - averaging 24 ppg, which was basically in line with what Dirk was averaging, except Dirk was averaging only ONE more point despite taking two extra shots in a better system (to add - Bosh also averaged nearly two more FTA).

It seems like you weren't watching the Raptors back then because Bosh was staking his claim as one of the premier PFs in the game with his performance in 2010; an argument for having the most well-rounded offensive game (elite face-up moves, ability to drive off both posts, ability to roll off both shoulders, finish through contact/at the rim etc). He just didn't get the recognition due to being on a small market team and the fact he was opening the cover to his prime.

Dirk was a former MVP still playing at an MVP level, in the middle of a 10-year streak of finishing top-10 in MVP voting. Bosh had never been an MVP contender, only barely slipping into the top-10 of voting ONCE a good four years earlier.

Just take the previous three years:

2008: Dirk 2nd-team All-NBA, Bosh does not make All-NBA team
2009: Dirk 1st-team All-NBA, Bosh does not make All-NBA team
2010: Dirk 2nd-team All-NBA, Bosh does not make All-NBA team.

Why are you listing their career resumes/perceptions of their respective games, and not detailing their abilities at that exact point [2009/10]?

Look at the playoffs it's even worse.

By 2011 Dirk had eight postseasons where he had averaged 25+ppg and eight postseasons where he had averaged 10+ rpg. From 2008-2012 Dirk put up 27-28ppg in the playoffs in FIVE STRAIGHT postseasons.

By 2011 Bosh had only made the playoffs twice, averaging 20ppg in two first-round losses matched up against Mikki Moore and Rashard Lewis.


Bosh hadn't done shyt in the playoffs, while Dirk always was a monster in the postseason even when he lost. No one came into 2011 thinking, "Chris Bosh is going to hold his own against Dirk". He wasn't on the same level.

It's meaningless referencing Bosh's past playoff success in this context due to him being his early 20s, in a worse system and a lack of legitimate support cast, whereas Dirk was in his prime over the same period, in one of the best systems in the league with playoff-competent to playoff-great support casts.

As far as Wade and Terry goes, Wade was a couple extra levels above Terry when 2010 started. But Terry jumped to a new place in those 2011 playoffs. He outplayed Brandon Roy, Kobe Bryant, and James Harden in the three series before the Finals. Against the Lakers in the deciding game of the WCSF, Terry punked Kobe straight up, putting up 32 points and 4 assists on 11-14 shooting to Kobe's 17 and 1 on 7-18 shooting (and for the series, Terry had 20-2-4 on ridiculous 59/68/86 splits to Kobe's 23-3-3 on 46/23/80).

Wade was still a "couple extra levels" above Terry in the '11 Playoffs as well. Terry didn't really jump to a new place (again it seems like you aren't aware of the player he was), he just rekindled his game and had more opportunities to find form/hit shots because he was coming off the bench playing periodically against second units, therefore facing less defensive attention predominantly as a spot-up shooter, while being on a team that could still win even if he wasn't productive (he averaged 15 ppg on 37% shooting in the WCF - they won 4-1).

He did NOT punk Kobe in that series, you can stop that nonsense right now. It's disingenuous to even say he did, considering Kobe was literally single-handedly trying to keep the Lakers' offense afloat in that series despite dealing with a # of ailments, and the rest of the squad shytting the bed.

Kobe wasn't even guarding him (Fisher and Blake took the majority of the defensive reps), whereas Kobe had to deal with being the center of the Mavs' defensive attention (guarded by Marion/Stevenson). Plus Terry's series percentages and PPG were propped up by his anomaly Game 4 performance where he went 9-10 from behind the arc on mostly wide open shots. He only averaged 15 ppg in the remainder of the series.



This seems another case of you running to the box score and drawing conclusions from it, without actually watching the game(s).

The point is, the margins between Wade/Terry and Dirk/Bosh were not even remotely close to being "roughly similar".

 

[The Devil's Advocate]

2003: Manu averages 9ppg on 35% shooting in the Finals, is about the 5th most important player on the squad

2005: Manu's great series, 19-6-4 on 49/39/86 shooting, 2nd or 3rd most important player on the squad and definitely the one that played 2nd-best overall in the Finals

2007: Manu averages 18ppg on 37% shooting in the Finals, 3rd most important player on the squad

2014: Manu averages 14ppg on 50% shooting, 4th most important player on the squad


Take away the "4 time champion", and that resume isn't even CLOSE to a Hall of Fame resume. And being a "4-time champion" doesn't make you a Hall of Famer when you were the 3rd or 4th best player on the squadd.

You put the fukking "NBA All-Rookie Team" on there as an accomplishment.

And 6th-man of the year.

It's basically saying that Klay and Draymond could go tomorrow and never make another All-Star game in their lives, but as long as Durant and Curry carry the Warriors to two more titles, they're all in the Hall!





Here are some old threads where this has already been argued. Almost no one other than Spurs fans thought that Manu deserved to be in the Hall based on NBA career alone.

Real talk how Is Ginoboli this automatic hall of famer?

Is Manu Ginobli a Hall of Famer?



How many guys with only 2 All-Star appearances are in the Hall, total?*




(I just realized Bill Walton fits the bill, but those two years he was an MVP, MVP runner-up, and Finals MVP whose career just got cut short by injury.)

This ain't baseball breh

Everybody pretty much can get in the NBA hall of fame. If you don't see the media (who votes on this) dikk sucking manu year in and out, I don't know what to tell you.

Benard king is the HOF. 4 time all star, 2 all NBA, all rookie team. No rings. No olympics. No awards

Ralph Sampson. 4 time all star. Nothing else

Calvin fukking Murphy is in there

Draven petrovich only played 4 seasons and he's in there

Bill Bradley in that bytch



I could go on for hours