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Would you say going all in with OL prior to drafting a QB is the step in the right direction?
Do we have a qb development problem
- Thread starter DropTopDoc
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I love Martin Luther, love Malcolm X
Love Knotts Landing, love Falcon's Crest
QB shyt is a crapshot. Lots of these cats are talented, some way more than others, but situation/coaching/front office/work ethic all factor in.
Sean P!
Washington and Philadelphia gave a blueprint. I think it has to start with organizational patience and trickle on down to coaching and so on.
Ideally, you go all in with OL. That said, a really good OL/well-constructed team can make QBs look better than they really are.
I think too many teams, including some "marquee" franchises, take a QB and expect him to mask the existing weaknesses -- and the vast majority of QBs aren't capable of that -- as opposed to building a team to a point where the RIGHT QB makes that squad nearly unstoppable/a perennial championship contender. After all, you typically have to be a trash team to get in position to take that highly-touted QB in the first place. Expecting a rookie quarterback to IMMEDIATELY right the ship is unrealistic. Even if it happens.
Additionally... QBs aren't allowed to be bad for a year or so. Since Josh Allen, I can't recall the last QB who had a long enough leash to look rough early and steadily figure it out heading into year 2, year 3, etc.
Nobody is passing on what they believe is a superstar qb because the line isn’t “good” yet
People have a short memory
There were mad Bryce young type dudes back in the days that ended up in Canada quick as fukk. We just like to remember that we came from a golden era of QBs where we had 6,7. or even 10 elite guys HoF guys at the same time. That can’t be the norm.
But other than that, hyping people up and killing them quick as fukk is OD:ing right now. It’s a complex problem for people drafted into chronically trash organizations
There were mad Bryce young type dudes back in the days that ended up in Canada quick as fukk. We just like to remember that we came from a golden era of QBs where we had 6,7. or even 10 elite guys HoF guys at the same time. That can’t be the norm.
But other than that, hyping people up and killing them quick as fukk is OD:ing right now. It’s a complex problem for people drafted into chronically trash organizations
Facts. That seems to be a big reason they drop off significantly at 30 now.
DropTopDoc
Smokin my Opps like Patrick Mahomes pops
The last part i agree with.
it’s hard to get a good line, but you have some coaches who believe in drafting a new guy both sides of the line every year because you never know, that said still never know, if you are in a position to draft a good qb you don’t pass on it but i would what qb is good at what and can we get an oc that works with that and can we get talent to help, the bears still have not gotten the line together(and no it doesn’t mean you have to draft a guy in the first round, but find actual talent, the guy we got out of Tennessee i don’t think he’s first round talent, we passed on Carter who literally is first round talent, imagine him on our d line) and Ben Johnson likes play action, which attacks the middle of the field, well guess who doesn’t like throwing over the middle ??? Caleb. So you can see issues already
Talking down on a young black man seems about white
DropTopDoc
Smokin my Opps like Patrick Mahomes pops
I think conventional play is ok, but you have ocs and organizations who aren’t honest about prospects and what they can do and putting them in a position to do what they do best. Add to the fact you have defenses switching up way different post snap or two deep saftey, or split field coverage or pattern match, with 6’5 270 lb edge rushers with a 6 pack (paws) these ain’t the de’s or DT’s from the 90’s these boys slimmed down a lot but almost weigh the same but way faster
The last part i agree with.
it’s hard to get a good line, but you have some coaches who believe in drafting a new guy both sides of the line every year because you never know, that said still never know, if you are in a position to draft a good qb you don’t pass on it but i would what qb is good at what and can we get an oc that works with that and can we get talent to help, the bears still have not gotten the line together(and no it doesn’t mean you have to draft a guy in the first round, but find actual talent, the guy we got out of Tennessee i don’t think he’s first round talent, we passed on Carter who literally is first round talent, imagine him on our d line) and Ben Johnson likes play action, which attacks the middle of the field, well guess who doesn’t like throwing over the middle ??? Caleb. So you can see issues already
Talking down on a young black man seems about white
Fair comments. I'd also say that play action mainly works when you have a ferocious rushing attack. Chicago doesn't have that. Not saying Swift is trash, but he is not Gibbs/Montgomery, nor is he behind a mauling unit of an OL.
There's issues for sure. At that point, you almost have to ask whether Ben should tailor the offense to what Caleb operates best in, or should Caleb be forced to fit the scheme. Personally, I think you tailor the scheme to the players and maximize what's given until they pick up what you want to do or you bring in the players that fit it, if you have the time.
The problem there is what Caleb does well at, i.e. backyard football, is not going to work at this level all the time, especially when you can't make the layups.
If the gameplan here is for Caleb to fit the scheme, which means reteaching him the QB position, then this year is a wash. All that matters is that he shows he can consistently play on time and manage down/distance, etc. as the season progresses.
But there's no organizational patience for that. If there were, Justin Fields would still be a Chicago Bear.
Nobody is passing on what they believe is a superstar qb because the line isn’t “good” yet
Right. That's why I said it'd be ideal to have the OL in place beforehand. That's not realistic, though, because teams that are most likely to get superstar QBs usually have multiple holes to fill. If given a choice, you're taking the QB first and figuring it out from there.
duckbutta
eienaar van mans
I wouldn't say Washington and Philly made any blueprint. Philly isn't where they are because they were patient, it's because Howie runs that team with an iron fist and so he had the authority to get Wentz out of their even though they had the biggest dead cap hit in the history of the nfl at the time. That is what allowed Hurts to play full time and that is what allowed them to build around his skillset. Without that Wentz is still their being trash. Most GM's don't have that authority to trade a player of that caliber and making that money. They were actually the opposite of patient. They realized Wentz wasn't it and did not care they paid him like he was they moved on. That plus the fact they rarely pay top dollar for any player, so they are able to actually get deals done "early" cause players know if you don't do a deal early with them they going to get you out of there is also why they are at where they are but that is also not something most teams can replicate. This whole "sign players early" shyt is also another thing that is a myth just like the "elite" qb is a myth.
Washington just got extremely lucky last year. That team isn't anything special and isn't built in any special way. Plus Washington now has this new age problem of the QB being to successful to fast and so they are now locked in to giving Daniels the biggest contract ever when he signs because he played a Lions team that was missing it's entire starting defense due to injury. It most doesn't matter what Daniels does the next two years he made it to the NFC championship game once so they are locked into paying him, because in todays nfl QB's do not have to have any sustained success to break the bank they just have to have one hot / lucky season and it's a wrap you paying them top dollar with no other real option. Quinn literally just got there but if all he does is make the playoffs and wins 1 playoff game the next two years he aint getting a 4th one.
It's funny how that Commanders Lions playoff game was phrased. Jayden Daniels beats the number one seed Lions. Starting corners out. Started ends out. Starting linebackers out. That dude legit played the defense the lions had on the field for their second preseason game, but it's "he beat the number one seed in the nfc he is elite"
I agree with you about getting the right QB for the system instead of the best QB, but i mean coaches get fired faster than ever rosters get turned over faster than ever so unless you somebody who got a real secure job you don't have time on your side.
Daboll going to get fired but the owner forced him to take Daniel Jones and then over compensated for blowing that money by forcing him to take Russ for the cheap. No regard at all for the QB that Daboll might actually want. He hasn't had one QB in new york that he actually wants. They had that dude trotting out Don Corleone nephew for a few games
Yeah, unless you have the opportunity to draft what looks to be a generational talent. But then you either risk ruining him by playing him behind a bad oline, or you have to sit him for a year or two and eat up his rookie deal while trying to build a line for him. But then what if the QB can’t play?
I say Philly had a blueprint because Hurts walked into a team that wasn't that far off. Wentz was bad in his final year, but before Hurts took over, they had Pro Bowl players on the OL and in general were a competitive team. They continued to invest in that as Hurts showed promise, and Shane Steichen ended up being a good OC for him. Howie then nailed some draft picks, heauxed Tennessee out of AJ Brown, and continued on to what the team is now.I wouldn't say Washington and Philly made any blueprint. Philly isn't where they are because they were patient, it's because Howie runs that team with an iron fist and so he had the authority to get Wentz out of their even though they had the biggest dead cap hit in the history of the nfl at the time. That is what allowed Hurts to play full time and that is what allowed them to build around his skillset. Without that Wentz is still their being trash. Most GM's don't have that authority to trade a player of that caliber and making that money. They were actually the opposite of patient. They realized Wentz wasn't it and did not care they paid him like he was they moved on. That plus the fact they rarely pay top dollar for any player, so they are able to actually get deals done "early" cause players know if you don't do a deal early with them they going to get you out of there is also why they are at where they are but that is also not something most teams can replicate. This whole "sign players early" shyt is also another thing that is a myth just like the "elite" qb is a myth.
Washington just got extremely lucky last year. That team isn't anything special and isn't built in any special way. Plus Washington now has this new age problem of the QB being to successful to fast and so they are now locked in to giving Daniels the biggest contract ever when he signs because he played a Lions team that was missing it's entire starting defense due to injury. It most doesn't matter what Daniels does the next two years he made it to the NFC championship game once so they are locked into paying him, because in todays nfl QB's do not have to have any sustained success to break the bank they just have to have one hot / lucky season and it's a wrap you paying them top dollar with no other real option. Quinn literally just got there but if all he does is make the playoffs and wins 1 playoff game the next two years he aint getting a 4th one.
It's funny how that Commanders Lions playoff game was phrased. Jayden Daniels beats the number one seed Lions. Starting corners out. Started ends out. Starting linebackers out. That dude legit played the defense the lions had on the field for their second preseason game, but it's "he beat the number one seed in the nfc he is elite"
I agree with you about getting the right QB for the system instead of the best QB, but i mean coaches get fired faster than ever rosters get turned over faster than ever so unless you somebody who got a real secure job you don't have time on your side.
Daboll going to get fired but the owner forced him to take Daniel Jones and then over compensated for blowing that money by forcing him to take Russ for the cheap. No regard at all for the QB that Daboll might actually want. He hasn't had one QB in new york that he actually wants. They had that dude trotting out Don Corleone nephew for a few games
100% facts that Howie is aggressive, but that team also does a good job as far as scouting out of college. Once they see what they have (or don't have), they move accordingly. In Hurts' case, there was enough on hand in the right places starting out.
Washington basically overhauled everything from front office on down. They signed more free agents than anyone, and they hired coaches who worked best with the type of QB they ended up getting in Daniels. They had a WR1 in McLaurin already, and they signed a sure-handed TE and also got Austin Ekeler, who had been one of the better dual-threat RBs in recent memory. I'm not saying these are needle-moving moves, but they're savvy signings that can help make a rookie QB's job easier given what they do well.
Now granted, Washington inherited one of the most manageable schedules in the league last season -- and you made a great point with the Detroit playoff game -- but they set the table for Daniels to where if he was any kind of good, they'd be OK. I don't think they expected to be 12-5 or whatever they were, but they made enough moves to where a promising QB would have them competitive.
I say all that to say that the ideal blueprint is for a rookie/young QB to walk into a situation where there's something to work with personnel-wise, you have the right coaches in place, and immediate excellence isn't expected. Personnel-wise, Chicago has tried to help Caleb. But the coaching was a terrible miss, and expectations were out of whack.
DropTopDoc
Smokin my Opps like Patrick Mahomes pops
Conventionally you get the qb that fits your system, but one or a few things happen. they pick a qb that does this one thing really well, and think they can build off it, but it never comes. they just get the guy they fall in love with (paws) he says the right thing or has a mentality or a rocket arm or tall, other shyt be damned they just love him. Or the gm loves the qb and forces a marriage, or last, the coordinator/head coach has a system and it is what it is whether the qb can work the system or not