Does Learning To Code Outweigh a Degree In Computer Science?

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How many times have I posted here that the best programmers in my company are those without degrees?


it takes one hell of a dedication to self teach programming. If a programmer is self taught believe me...he knows it

This is true. The most gifted software engineer I work with had no degree, but had to go get it so that he could get the money that matched the job description. Our company milked him for years by under paying him due to the fact that he had no degree.
 

Chris.B

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This is true. The most gifted software engineer I work with had no degree, but had to go get it so that he could get the money that matched the job description. Our company milked him for years by under paying him due to the fact that he had no degree.
he was too comfortable...he should have bailed on them.
Too many companies out here they can't even fill those positions they turn to HB-1 Visa's.
 
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he was too comfortable...he should have bailed on them.
Too many companies out here they can't even fill those positions they turn to HB-1 Visa's.

He's very comfortable! IMO, he undervalues himself. I get to work at 7:30 and he's always there before me...He told me once that he'd been there since 3am...He doesn't leave until 7:30 pm some nights! He works harder and longer then anyone at my office. He can go anywhere and if/when he leaves, my program will suffer a great loss!
 

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The thing is, if you get a CS degree or Software/Computer Engineer degree just to go be a code monkey, of course it would seem pointless.

There are careers and fields for Computer Scientists and Software/Computer Engineers where the theoretical is the most important part. I suggest some of you look at some of the questions that are asked during interviews for large companies and prestige positions. Not only are there theory-only questions asked, the coding questions you are asked to code have to be followed by timing complexity proof of your solution. They don't want to see a solution that works, they want to see the most optimal solution and your logic on what is the most optimal solution. God have mercy on your soul if you don't know graph theory or how to traverse paths.

I suggest going to glassdoor.com or careercup.com (or any other similar site) to see what questions are out there. A bulk of them are theory related. But again, that's for high-paying, prestigious jobs. If you're going to code apps or basic software, the basics are fine. If you're going to work for Google or NASA, that's some different.

That being said, the theory can be learned on its own as well, it's just much, much harder. The theory and the math is what makes the dropout rate in those degrees so high.
 
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now, as far as management positions are concerned, listen, real programmers have ZERO interests in being managers. we've all had managers and not one programmer would want to do what they do. all we wanna do is sit in front of a computer and come up with innovative ways to accomplish whatever task we have to perform. managers go to meetings all day and they sit there discussing bullsh1t and talking on the phone, going over crap. sh1t like that will incense the genuine programmers.

another post that i just have to quote because it's so spot on.

for the people who are really into programming, it's like an addiction to them. they couldn't stop even if they wanted to. it's maybe the ppl who aren't keen on it as much that want to knock it down as some low-brow shyt, on some 'managemeent is where it's at. programming, you'll get sick of it'. nah, broski i like solving puzzles. i couldn't think of anything as dry or boring as being a manager and dealing with 'human' issues like flakiness, laziness, office drama, etc..
 

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another post that i just have to quote because it's so spot on.

for the people who are really into programming, it's like an addiction to them. they couldn't stop even if they wanted to. it's maybe the ppl who aren't keen on it as much that want to knock it down as some low-brow shyt, on some 'managemeent is where it's at. programming, you'll get sick of it'. nah, broski i like solving puzzles. i couldn't think of anything as dry or boring as being a manager and dealing with 'human' issues like flakiness, laziness, office drama, etc..

like for instance, i get slightly worried at times when i complete a code or solve a puzzle. its like i think, damn it, what am i gonna do now. i cant imagine having the majority of my time being spent doing managerial stuff. a lot of these idiots only wanna be managers because of the title. and in IT, u can make more than your manager if you're a contractor.
 
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Bomberman

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Alright, I've completed math up to Differential Equations and Physics III (the one that ends with Quantum Mechanics), finished my first C++ course (intro) and a Visual Basic course. Both of which used Visual Studio. After my first Data Structures class, how much will the knowledge gap in strictly coding be if I were to stop my education right there?Do the math and physics skills mean anything to an employer that gives me any kind of advantage over someone without schooling when it comes to coding?
 

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It's good to know your data structures & your Big-Ohs. However, for most folks that knowledge is superflous once you actually get into industry. I'm planning on going to go to grad school & possibly doing breakthrough research so my perspective is different. But remember that if you want to fly with the eagles, you have to know your algorithms & your data structures. To ace Google's interviews you have to know Cormen's classic Introduction to Algorithms textbook from front to back.

& to be honest, it's never a bad thing to know more. even though a lot of the information we'll be unnecessary to you in your future career, it's good to have an overview or a little bit of background knowledge. you might forget a lot of it but it will be much easier to pick back up on the off chance that you'll need it again.

to answer the thread: a degree doesn't mean shyt, especially in computer science. the people who really go far are the people who have a genuine love for coding, algorithms, math, etc and would be doing this whether or not they were getting paid for it. if your entire reason for doing cs or engineering is to get big booty hoes and a big house then do yourself a favor and do business or economics. merely being a code monkey will not get you far. also, a degree in and of itself is more worthless than toilet paper if you don't have an extensive portfolio to back it up. i'm studying computer science at a top school, and i feel bad that i'll graduate with the same degree as some of my peers. i honestly feel bad for whoever's going to hire those guys. they are shiftless, passionless and borderline incompetent (& that's not to say that i'm a superstar programmer either).

That's why I said in the programming thread that everyone doesn't need to 'learn how to code'. There is some mysterious push lately in the media that everyone needs to learn to program and supposedly Bloomberg and Obama are both going to 'learn to code.' Yeah right. If you type 'everybody needs to learn to code', you will have tons of articles come up by programmers who say the same thing. "Everybody doesn't need to learn to code." It's not being elitist. It's just being honest. Not everyone needs to learn to be a doctor, engineer, accountant, or whatever. All of those fields have people who are more inclined towards doing what those fields require. For example, I got my degree in accounting, but I actually hate accounting. It took me a while to realize, but I would never really do anything special in accounting because I would end up being a mediocre accountant. People who love it will be studying hard, garnering their CPA, and just honing up on all aspects of the field while I'd be doing just enough to get by. On the other hand, I love programming. Whereas I would find it hard to read a few pages of accounting text and stay interested, I literally have over 50 books related to programming and web development. Obviously, I haven't read them all, but it just goes to show you the difference in effort put forth when you actually love something.


The mainstream is trivializing the field and giving people an impression they can just go in and start writing programs after a month or two of study. Everyone should have the ability to expose themselves more to programming if they choose to do so, but the people saying everyone should learn it aren't even programmers themselves. Honestly, it sounds like they want to try to create cheaper rates for programmers by flooding the field with them because they are still relatively expensive... but that's going to be hard to do because writing code in a quality fashion isn't easy to do. You fill your organization with cheap programmers who aren't dedicated to what they're doing and it will be way more expensive than if you hired the skilled guy in the first place. For one, you'll be lucky if you'll get something that works... if it works, the problem will be maintainability and scalability. You'll have to go back and hire that skilled programmer who loves the field to refactor all of that code or rewrite it from scratch.

There's a reason programmers get paid so much and that there's always a demand for them. Programming is hard and you have to constantly be learning and improving your skills. There's a ton of base concepts to learn, aka object orientation, algorithms, etc., and on top of that, you always have to stay up with the latest trends. New frameworks and new languages are constantly popping up and you will eventually have to learn new ones. It takes a certain kind of personality to like programming. It's really not for 'everybody'. This is one field where you have to do a ton of out of work study.
 

kevm3

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Alright, I've completed math up to Differential Equations and Physics III (the one that ends with Quantum Mechanics), finished my first C++ course (intro) and a Visual Basic course. Both of which used Visual Studio. After my first Data Structures class, how much will the knowledge gap in strictly coding be if I were to stop my education right there?Do the math and physics skills mean anything to an employer that gives me any kind of advantage over someone without schooling when it comes to coding?

I'm sure you can get some entry level job knowing all the theory and etc., but what will really increase your odds of employment is by actually having working programs that you can demonstrate to your employers. Programming is similar to art in that your portfolio matters. For example, if you want an art job and they ask you to pull out your portfolio and they see that your demonstrable work is awful, your degree can't save you. People talk about the degree aspect of things, and true, you don't need a degree to get a programming job... but if you forego a degree, you have to be extremely skilled. Get your degree, but create a portfolio of projects in your free time. Just like in art, the quality of your work speaks louder than anything else.
 

semtex

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I'm sure you can get some entry level job knowing all the theory and etc., but what will really increase your odds of employment is by actually having working programs that you can demonstrate to your employers. Programming is similar to art in that your portfolio matters. For example, if you want an art job and they ask you to pull out your portfolio and they see that your demonstrable work is awful, your degree can't save you. People talk about the degree aspect of things, and true, you don't need a degree to get a programming job... but if you forego a degree, you have to be extremely skilled. Get your degree, but create a portfolio of projects in your free time. Just like in art, the quality of your work speaks louder than anything else.
Yeah that worked for me. Funny thing is all my portfolio stuff is java and a .NET team wanted me
 

semtex

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The thing is, if you get a CS degree or Software/Computer Engineer degree just to go be a code monkey, of course it would seem pointless.

There are careers and fields for Computer Scientists and Software/Computer Engineers where the theoretical is the most important part. I suggest some of you look at some of the questions that are asked during interviews for large companies and prestige positions. Not only are there theory-only questions asked, the coding questions you are asked to code have to be followed by timing complexity proof of your solution. They don't want to see a solution that works, they want to see the most optimal solution and your logic on what is the most optimal solution. God have mercy on your soul if you don't know graph theory or how to traverse paths.

I suggest going to glassdoor.com or careercup.com (or any other similar site) to see what questions are out there. A bulk of them are theory related. But again, that's for high-paying, prestigious jobs. If you're going to code apps or basic software, the basics are fine. If you're going to work for Google or NASA, that's some different.

That being said, the theory can be learned on its own as well, it's just much, much harder. The theory and the math is what makes the dropout rate in those degrees so high.
Yeah good thing I still have all my CS books. It is fascinating stuff and if nothing else it works your brain
 

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Yeah good thing I still have all my CS books. It is fascinating stuff and if nothing else it works your brain

Yea it does man but some of it is just a fukking bytch to study for or to fully understand. It gets extremely complex.

I'd love to tell you that I am some genius who had some Rainmain moment where I grasped everything automatically but no. The struggle was very real. :sadcam:
 

semtex

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Yea it does man but some of it is just a fukking bytch to study for or to fully understand. It gets extremely complex.

I'd love to tell you that I am some genius who had some Rainmain moment where I grasped everything automatically but no. The struggle was very real. :sadcam:
Linear algebreh and also algorithms gave my gpa a beating.
 

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You think the portfolio thing comes into play mainly when the position/company you're applying for has many people applying for that position/company? I've done work for banks and a hospital, but I've really just went into interviews, showed my problem solving process, spoke on experience, and gotten job offers like that. But the demand for those companies were in markets where they're weren't that many competent people applying.
 
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There's a reason programmers get paid so much and that there's always a demand for them. Programming is hard and you have to constantly be learning and improving your skills. There's a ton of base concepts to learn, aka object orientation, algorithms, etc., and on top of that, you always have to stay up with the latest trends. New frameworks and new languages are constantly popping up and you will eventually have to learn new ones. It takes a certain kind of personality to like programming. It's really not for 'everybody'. This is one field where you have to do a ton of out of work study.

Exactly! That's what I'm saying. Even me, when I'm searching for jobs, there's certain positions where I JUST KNOW that I won't cut it, and I have no issue with admitting to myself that I suck because it gives me more incentive / push to improve myself.

Basically my point is that there's folks who LOVE programming and regardless of whether or not they pursue a degree they'd probably still be killing it. Therefore if you have the mindset that a degree will magically add value to your portfolio even though you're not really a programmer / theorist by nature, then imo i'd suggest you take time to really think if this is what you want to be doing for the rest of your life.
 
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