Fat Joe getting drug for saying Latinos created hip hop

Ish Gibor

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Nah, they had a concept of triracialism but It wasn't verified by ancestry testing like we have today. Puertro Ricans used the term Trigueno for what would amount to light/wheat colored folks who don't look ether "white" or "black" (by their standards).

Yeah, it's actually common as fuk for Nuyoricans to admit being part African/Black, even before we had DNA testing


Agreed. And this (I think) also brings in confusion in how people from outside of NY look at them and compare them to Mexicans at the West coast for example.

Let's not forget there's still a Branco class as a ruling class. I spoke with YouTuber Denisse Gonzalez about some of these things. When I mentioned Rita Moreno (from the movie West Side Story) as being part of the Zulu Nation (by what Afrika Bambaataa said in an interview), she got a bit upset with me and said: "she's a grifter and a white woman".

BwjPqk7459UoIsSp601_hkpyGYCYALVzDH4_rf9MIAIUZMJ0brbxy2ifLby32S68ysXdl-y0Bg=s900-c-k-c0x00ffffff-no-rj





(1)“My field notes for that project are full of references to the intermediate physical types of many residents of Barrio Gandul, including moreno and trigueño. For statistical purposes, these terms are usually grouped under the generic label mulatto, but Puerto Ricans make finer social distinctions in their daily lives. For instance, our informants used the terms grifo, jabao, and colorao to refer to various combinations of hair types and skin tones. At least 19 different racial categories are currently used in Puerto Rico (see Table 1; see also Godreau 2000).”
[…]
“Between 1899 and 1950, the U.S. Bureau of the Census computed the number of white and nonwhite people in Puerto Rico. In spite of changing racial categories, as well as their popular contestation, the census found that Puerto Ricans were becoming whiter over time. The bleaching of the Island’s population can be partly explained by the tendency to incorporate light mulattos (trigueños) into the white category, as well as the common belief in “improving one’s race” through intermarriage with lighter-skinned persons.”

Source: (Jorge Duany, Department of Sociology and Anthropology University of Puerto Rico).

“The Lessons of Slavery: Discourses of Slavery, Mestizaje, and Blanqueamiento in an Elementary School in Puerto Rico"
Isar P. Godreau, Mariolga Reyes Cruz, Mariluz Franco Ortiz and Sherry Cuadrado
American Ethnologist
Vol. 35, No. 1 (Feb., 2008), pp. 115-135 (21 pages)”



Legs prety much kept it real, although he ain't tell the whole truth about Freestyle music. He's right that it was first called "Latin HipHop" before it was called "Latin Freestyle" but really, that sh1t was basically electro-hop/funk + R&B music:mjgrin:


Yeah, I remember the electro funk trend, which came an extension of R&B, with electronic equipment instead of analog instruments. In fact we can bring it back to 70s Jazz-Funk, unlike how some try to connect it to Euro electro music, which rhythmically is different with different syncopates. The other suggestion is Italian disco / funk, which still is not older than Jazz-Funk. And there's a direct path from Jazz-Funk to Disco.

I am using Wikipedia as a generic source:

"Jazz-funk is a subgenre of jazz music characterized by a strong back beat (groove), electrified sounds,[1] and an early prevalence of analog synthesizers. The integration of funk, soul, and R&B music and styles into jazz resulted in the creation of a genre whose spectrum is quite wide and ranges from strong jazz improvisation to soul, funk or disco with jazz arrangements, jazz riffs, jazz solos, and sometimes soul vocals.[2]

Jazz-funk is primarily an American genre, where it was popular throughout the 1970s and the early 1980s, but it also achieved noted appeal on the club-circuit in England during the mid-1970s. Similar genres include soul jazz and jazz fusion, but neither entirely overlap with jazz-funk. Jazz-funk is more arranged and features more improvisation than soul jazz, and retains a stronger feel of groove and R&B versus some of the jazz fusion production."



"Freestyle music,[10] also called Latin freestyle[4] or Latin hip-hop (sic)[11] is a form of electronic dance music that emerged in the New York metropolitan area and Philadelphia, primarily among Hispanic Americans and Italian Americans in the 1980s.[2] It experienced its greatest popularity from the late 1980s until the early 1990s. A common theme of freestyle lyricism originated as heartbreak in an urban environment typified by New York City.

An important precursor to freestyle is 1982's "Planet Rock" by Afrika Bambaataa & Soul Sonic Force. Shannon's 1983 hit "Let the Music Play" is often considered the first freestyle song and the first major song recorded by a Latin American artist is "Please Don't Go" by Nayobe from 1984. From there, freestyle gained a large presence in American clubs, especially in New York and Miami. Radio airplay followed in the mid 1980s.[12]

Performers such as Exposé, Lisa Lisa and Cult Jam, Stevie B and Sweet Sensation gained mainstream chart success with the genre in the late 1980s and early 1990s, but its popularity largely faded by the end of the decade. Both classic and newer freestyle output remain popular as a niche genre in Brazil (where it is an influence on funk carioca), Germany and Canada."


And if one would want to make the argument on Latin Jazz, it's still within Afro-Latin traditions, the negro music.


"Latin jazz is a genre of jazz with Latin American rhythms. The two main categories are Afro-Cuban jazz, rhythmically based on Cuban popular dance music, with a rhythm section employing ostinato patterns or a clave, and Afro-Brazilian jazz, which includes samba and bossa nova."

I still have a few electro albums and singles. At the time Shannon came out, I was just in high school. I had only so much money to spend, so I bought Kurtis Blow – Christmas Rappin' / Nervous, because I had to make a choice.


















The Rock Steady Crew came out with Digital Boogie in 1984.


Man Parrish (Manuel Joseph Parrish) came out in 1982. Raul A. Rodriguez contributed to that album as a producer.


 
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Ish Gibor

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Guests on the panel are Crazy Legs, Joe Gonzo, Caz, Whipper Whip, Kane and Tony Touch.




 
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Ish Gibor

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Please don't laugh… and there's no mention of Dog E Fresh.

"Beatboxing dates back centuries, to the tabla bols used in North Indian music that were used to imitate the tabla drums. Other forms of vocal percussion have evolved since then, including the intentionally raspy vocal quality used in African spiritual music to the scatting and bass hums in jazz and blues music."
 

IllmaticDelta

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Agreed. And this (I think) also brings in confusion in how people from outside of NY look at them and compare them to Mexicans at the West coast for example.

Let's not forget there's still a Branco class as a ruling class. I spoke with YouTuber Denisse Gonzalez about some of these things. When I mentioned Rita Moreno (from the movie West Side Story) as being part of the Zulu Nation (by what Afrika Bambaataa said in an interview), she got a bit upset with me and said: "she's a grifter and a white woman".

BwjPqk7459UoIsSp601_hkpyGYCYALVzDH4_rf9MIAIUZMJ0brbxy2ifLby32S68ysXdl-y0Bg=s900-c-k-c0x00ffffff-no-rj





(1)“My field notes for that project are full of references to the intermediate physical types of many residents of Barrio Gandul, including moreno and trigueño. For statistical purposes, these terms are usually grouped under the generic label mulatto, but Puerto Ricans make finer social distinctions in their daily lives. For instance, our informants used the terms grifo, jabao, and colorao to refer to various combinations of hair types and skin tones. At least 19 different racial categories are currently used in Puerto Rico (see Table 1; see also Godreau 2000).”
[…]
“Between 1899 and 1950, the U.S. Bureau of the Census computed the number of white and nonwhite people in Puerto Rico. In spite of changing racial categories, as well as their popular contestation, the census found that Puerto Ricans were becoming whiter over time. The bleaching of the Island’s population can be partly explained by the tendency to incorporate light mulattos (trigueños) into the white category, as well as the common belief in “improving one’s race” through intermarriage with lighter-skinned persons.”

Source: (Jorge Duany, Department of Sociology and Anthropology University of Puerto Rico).

“The Lessons of Slavery: Discourses of Slavery, Mestizaje, and Blanqueamiento in an Elementary School in Puerto Rico"
Isar P. Godreau, Mariolga Reyes Cruz, Mariluz Franco Ortiz and Sherry Cuadrado
American Ethnologist
Vol. 35, No. 1 (Feb., 2008), pp. 115-135 (21 pages)”


Rita Moreno is more light triguena than an actual white person lol but that reverse one drop rule in Latin America got all types of non-pretos scrambling to be "white" (blanco). I never heard about her being in Zulu Nation:russ::mjlol:


"Freestyle music,[10] also called Latin freestyle[4] or Latin hip-hop (sic)[11] is a form of electronic dance music that emerged in the New York metropolitan area and Philadelphia, primarily among Hispanic Americans and Italian Americans in the 1980s.[2] It experienced its greatest popularity from the late 1980s until the early 1990s. A common theme of freestyle lyricism originated as heartbreak in an urban environment typified by New York City.

An important precursor to freestyle is 1982's "Planet Rock" by Afrika Bambaataa & Soul Sonic Force. Shannon's 1983 hit "Let the Music Play" is often considered the first freestyle song and the first major song recorded by a Latin American artist is "Please Don't Go" by Nayobe from 1984. From there, freestyle gained a large presence in American clubs, especially in New York and Miami. Radio airplay followed in the mid 1980s.[12]

Performers such as Exposé, Lisa Lisa and Cult Jam, Stevie B and Sweet Sensation gained mainstream chart success with the genre in the late 1980s and early 1990s, but its popularity largely faded by the end of the decade. Both classic and newer freestyle output remain popular as a niche genre in Brazil (where it is an influence on funk carioca), Germany and Canada."


And if one would want to make the argument on Latin Jazz, it's still within Afro-Latin traditions, the negro music.


Yeah, the first "freestyle" song was by a Black (non-hispanic) woman. The reason it got called "Latin Freestyle" later was because Nuyoricans and then Florida Hispanics started gravitating to that sound and producing artists in that style. Not that many "black" singers made songs under the "Latin Freestyle" banner but there were definitely "black" people doing the beats because it was still electro-hop/electro-funk from a production perspective.


This Debbie Deb classic



was done by Pretty Tony







Tony Butler AKA Pretty Tony was an engineer/producer credited with putting Miami on the map in the eighties before Luther Campbell took over. He is also known as being a member of the group “Freestyle”. Tony put the tracks together for Freestyle on every occasion but never was in the group. Tony loved the studio and was very creative, he knew the club scene well and knew what got people moving. His early fame came with a song called “Summer Delight” written by the Mills brothers Calvin & Carlton, and then a song called “Freestyle Express”. Everything after that was Tony working with other studio vocalists, musicians, etc. that just loved being in the studio.

New Times: Freestyle became this huge genre in Florida, New York, California, Texas, and now around the world, but you actually invented the name and style in Miami, right?

Pretty Tony: Yeah, that's right. I had to come up with a name for this group I formed and the unique sound I had for it. Freestyle is what I came up with, and after that, it became a whole genre of music.





the guys that kept the electro-funk, hiphop w/o the R&B would go on to birth Miami Bass




While many regard freestyle as New York-centric, the genre had just as much impact down South in Miami. Credit for this must go to Pretty Tony Butler, whose production work with Debbie Deb, Trinere and Freestyle made Liberty City one of freestyle’s main hubs. Tony’s bass-heavy tunes not only hit hard, they had a sense of humor: One of his early signatures was sound effects like broken glass and lasers. In this rare interview, Vivian Host quizzes the hitmaker about Miami in the ’80s, how a machine gun played an essential role in a Trinere hit and much more.



How did you meet Debbie Deb and decide to work with her?


At that time I was promoting concerts. We did Luther Vandross, Gap Band, Midnight Star and whatnot. I went to Peaches Records to check the ticket sales and give them more tickets. I was working on the music for a track called “When I Hear Music” and I knew I wanted a female voice. I heard a voice coming from behind the wall at Peaches that was the exact voice I was hearing in my head. She was hip, Debbie Deb. I go, “Do you sing?” She goes, “No dude.” I go, “Do you want to make a record?” She said, “I guess.” I gave her my number and my address and asked her to come to the studio that night.
That night she came by, put on the headphones and went in the booth, and she said she couldn’t believe how good the song sounded. She’s like, “This is going to be mine?” I go, “Yeah, if it sounds good enough.” While she had the headphones on I was writing the lyrics and singing it to her through the headphones through the talkback system. She was completely freaking out. We finished the record that night. I took it to the radio station and it went triple platinum.
“Fix It in the Mix” was still going up the charts, mind you, so was “Jam the Box.” I was cutting records too fast to actually make money because I didn’t understand how it went. My records were actually competing against each other. But then they taught me at the radio station that only a certain amount of records from a label can be played at one time. I go, “I got four records.” A lightbulb went off in my head, and I go, “Wait, I need more labels.” Every record I did was on a different label, so now all of them could be played on the radio at one time.
At this point, the pressing plants are running 24/7. I have four records now in the Top 10 on all the radio stations and we can’t press enough records. I went out and I bought a pressing plant. There was a Latin market here and all of the plants were only pressing records in Spanish. Nobody else was pressing English records, other than Henry Stone, with Sunnyview Records and KC and the Sunshine Band. I was the first one in Miami to start doing that kind of dance music, electronic music.

Freestyle - Summer Delight


When did you first hear that people were calling this music freestyle?


As far as I know, I coined the phrase. I hadn’t heard anybody call it freestyle music prior to me coming up with the name of the group Freestyle. Most of the music was coming out of New York and overseas. The people in New York had me bummed out at first because they didn’t take my stuff seriously. The mindset was if you’re not from New York, you’re not doing something. They said that on my first platinum record; one the second one, they said I was lucky. Then after five of them they started charting, they started paying attention and having me on panels at the New Music Seminar. When their acts like TKA and Lisa Lisa started opening up for mine, I guess they figured, “We should at least acknowledge the guy.”
Stevie B was here in Miami; he came to my studio and we didn’t hit it off too well. He was trying to tell me what to do. I told him, “I’m good on that.”


 
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IllmaticDelta

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Guests on the panel are Crazy Legs, Joe Gonzo, Caz, Whipper Whip, Kane and Tony Touch.







that was a waste of time.....it needs to be a roundtable w/ someone like Davey D to get people to tell the truth/truths that they've already told. Caz and Whipper Whip know alot more than they were letting on:snoop:
 
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Ish Gibor

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that was a waste of time.....its needs to be a roundtable w/ someone like Davey D to get people to tell the truth/truths that they've already told. Caz and Whipper Whip know alot more than they were letting on:snoop:
Yep, I posted in the comment section and said the same to Jen you’re saying here. I told her that we need others as well like Coli Rock, DST, Fat Mike, Green Eye Genie, Trixie, Grand Wizard Theodore, Busy Bee, Melle Mel, Raheem etc… she as she always does made it into a circular babble. I asked the “pioneers”.

Good thing is how Caz correct Joe Gonzo when he made it into an all lives matter thing, with Jewish boys break dancing”. Caz was like, let’s keep it real, let’s keep it a buck. As he got annoyed. He said there was Puerto Ricans, but the majority was Black. A second important thing he said was (as we have verified already) that they didn’t know each other by nationality, unless some one opened his mouth and spoke. He said if you was Black you was Black. I did look at all the panel members reaction and Joe, Whipper and Crazy Legs agreed. All had in common to have afro textured hair type and an Afro in the 70s.

Jen responded and said she was going to do a review and Crazy Legs maybe was going to be there as well.
 
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Ish Gibor

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electro-funk/electro-hop because of the more "Planet Rock" type of breakdown

they would call this "freestyle" because of the singing/R&B breakdown

Here is the complete Street Sounds Electro series from 1 (1983) to 22 (1988).

Enjoy.




 
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Ish Gibor

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Rita Moreno is more light triguena than an actual white person lol but that reverse one drop rule in Latin America got all types of non-pretos scrambling to be "white" (blanco).
The reverse one drop rule is a hype. In the end it’s the actual whites on top and anyone else put on a lower standard of that pyramid scheme, I meant to say scam.

And Denisse made it clear a few times in that conversation that she doesn’t like her and considers her a white lady who’s grifting. I said: “I’m not going to argue with you. You are the expert”.

1f6958aa097025494f6cc2534938bb13.jpg


I never heard about her being in Zulu Nation:russ::mjlol:

It was Bambataa who said that in an interview. Why he did I don’t know. I forgot when and where it was. I am not going to look it up, since I forgot where it was.

Yeah, the first "freestyle" song was by a Black (non-hispanic) woman. The reason it got called "Latin Freestyle" later was because Nuyoricans and then Florida Hispanics started gravitating to that sound and producing artists in that style. Not that many "black" singers made songs under the "Latin Freestyle" banner but there were definitely "black" people doing the beats because it was still electro-hop/electro-funk from a production perspective.


This Debbie Deb classic


I remember this song.

I still have some of these songs on vinyl:










was done by Pretty Tony





the guys that kept the electro-funk, hiphop w/o the R&B would go on to birth Miami Bass




Yeah, I remember Miami Bass. It was considered a bit wack, until Stetsasonic made it popular and acceptable. I remember being at a gig and they had to excuse themselves explaining that it’s actually cool this and that. We wanted them James Brown drums…



Thanks for putting forward that documentary.
 
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IllmaticDelta

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Yep, I posted in the comment section and said the same to Jen you’re saying here. We need other as well, like Coli Rock, DST, Fat Mike, Green Eye Genie, Trixie, Grand Wizard Theodore, Busy Bee, Melle Mel, Raheem etc… she as she always does made it into a circular babble. I asked the “pioneers”.

Good thing is how Caz correct Joe Gonzo when he made it into an all lives matter thing, with Jewish boys break dancing”. Caz was like, let’s keep it real, let’s keep it a buck. As he got annoyed. He said there was Puerto Ricans, but the majority was Black. A

Yeah, Caz was about to go in but then he pulled back lol


second important thing he said was (as we have verified already) that they didn’t know each other by nationality, unless some one opened his mouth and spoke. He said if you was Black you was Black. I did look at all the panel members reaction and Joe, Whipper and Crazy Legs agreed. All had in common to have afro textured hair type and an Afro in the 70s.

See, Afram culture was considered the dominant culture/people of those times so most people would assume that all "blacks" were Aframs unless they had a reason to think otherwise


Jen responded and said she was going to do a review and Crazy Legs maybe was going to be there as well.

She doesn't have a grasp on 1970s hiphop history/general historical dynamics of the period, to be engaging in these type of sitdowns. Her POV of the interactions between Blacks/latins is clearly rooted in the 1990s and doesn't refelct what actually went down during that era


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Ish Gibor

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Here Bam confirms what Jamar was saying. And many others have said the same. Although I hate to post this since vlad tv will get monetized for this content.




 
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Ish Gibor

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Thanks to @theworldismine13 for giving this attention.

This article is from 1981. Before Hip Hop started to spread out of NY. This is perhaps one of the most important pieces of the puzzle that was overlooked.

“Dewey Markham, a comedian who performed on both the black and white vaudeville circuits and was best known for his skit called ''Here comes the judge,'' died Sunday in Montefiore Hospital in the Bronx after suffering a massive stroke. He was 77 years old and lived in the Bronx.

Pigmeat Markham, as he was known, was cited by Langston Hughes and Milton Meltzer in their book, ''Black Magic: A Pictorial History of the Negro in American Entertainment,'' as one of the ''golden dozen'' black comics.

Born in Durham, N.C., Mr. Markham started performing in the South, working in carnivals and medcine shows as a dancer and comedian. In the mid- and late 1920's he came to New York, performing at the Alhambra Theater and then the Apollo Theater with his straight man, the late George Wilshire. In Minstrel Tradition”.




African-American entertainer, born April 18, 1904 in Durham, North Carolina, died December 13, 1981 in Bronx, New York.”
 
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Ish Gibor

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This one by Jamar is long, but has amazing guest appearances by Vansilk, Whipper Whip, Rubie Dee and later on Rahiem joins and that’s where real knowledge is being dropped.

Vansilk mentioned “Pigmeat Markham” (Dewey Markham) at 1:13:58.


 
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Alvin

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I shyt on Spanish people alot admittedly, more than anyone else. And I always laugh at fat joe for the most part

he's wrong 100% ... but there were alot of puerto ricans during the beginning influencing dance and style
they werent huge pillars or totally killing shyt on a breakthrough tip.... but they were adding flair and present from the beginning
you cant say invent like he tried to... but you can say "brought trends into existence that set the groundwork for offshoots toward the culture"

there's a thread on here where it showed DJ Hollywood didnt even get the initial credit for bringing hiphop alive... because he was doing it at disco clubs and people were hating on his level .... compared to the "street" acts who werent let into any doors. He was doing crowd work and spitting bars over his breaks before anyone.
And even contributing to breaking, it was all lifted from earlier 1920s and 1930s african americans ... what changed is the flair and deeper groundwork... its just an evolution of something that already existed.






one question I would ask, after seeing that first video attached... if there's a claim where people say "NO spanish people came or even to the parties" .... then how would they eventually adopt and blend into the culture if they didnt know it existed? Its not like they just showed up and started breaking without knowing breaking existed.

for your second point, I'll just say they probably came to parties and what not once it started getting bigger and gaining traction, they just weren't there in the beginning. I look at it like I look at white people first starting to listen to hip hop compared to when it was thought to be a fad.

lol why do you shyt on latinos.
 
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