First Mass Protests in Algeria in Decades

[thatrapsfan]

That's crazy. I was at a demonstration yesterday here in Paris and the energy was at a whole other level

A friend of mine who is in Algiers now stays skeptical about this move. The fact that the elections are postponed means that he (and more importantly, the clique around him who is pulling the strings) stays in power for another year and has time to stabilize their situation. A victory yes but like someone said yesterday at the demonstration it's much deeper than Boutef.

Have a close friend in Algiers as well and he told me that’s the sentiment on the streets right now. People are happy but are still committed to a full fall of the “system”. He said he expects another round of big protests the coming Friday.

It’ll be fascinating to watch either way. Just a month ago the common wisdom had it, that Algerians were ambivalent about protest after their civil war and that it was among the most stable regimes in the region. Overturned on its head in a matter of weeks.

 

[mbewane]

How many of them speak Amazigh

Language spoken is one of many elements that constitute one's identity. Also a lot speak darija more so than arab, and Amazigh itself has various subdivisions if I'm not mistaken.

 

[mbewane]

Have a close friend in Algiers as well and he told me that’s the sentiment on the streets right now. People are happy but are still committed to a full fall of the “system”. He said he expects another round of big protests the coming Friday.

It’ll be fascinating to watch either way. Just a month ago the common wisdom had it, that Algerians were ambivalent about protest after their civil war and that it was among the most stable regimes in the region. Overturned on its head in a matter of weeks.

The chants and jokes (those in french) they're using are next level

Yeah it's a new day all of a sudden. Like this friend told me it's mostly the prior generation (who went from independence to the civil war) who was extra cautious, while the younger ones didn't live all that and been stuck with Boutef for 20 years. But education has been on the rise. Also what I hadn't realized is that seemingly a lot of the political islamists were basically coopted by the government due to the amnesty laws and whatnot, so they too are seen as "the system" protestors want to kick out. At the demonstration yesterday there were various signs against islamists.

 

[88m3]

sounds like he won't run

 

[Baka's Weird Case]

Abdelaziz had a massive stroke in 2013, there's a lot of people that believe with good cause that the man has literally been brain dead for the last several years and that his family and the military have been hiding it to stay in power. Awful situation, the people have been suffering so a man that's already fukking dead can have his actual corpse propped up every few years so that his family and former cronies can continue to enrich themselves.

he hasn't spoken publicly in years or spoken period?

Well hard to distinguish between the two, as the Government isnt truthful about health. Likely the latter, but that he hasnt spoken publicly is what can be confirmed.

bouteflika isnt really running the country. the actual power is in the hands of the military and "le pouvoir" - a group of twelve or so unelected FLN members. i think they just had bouteflika in there to just barely seem like an actual democracy. they also probably told him not to run after these protests started, im sure theyll get someone else loyal to them to step in and rig the election for him

 

[thatrapsfan]

Language spoken is one of many elements that constitute one's identity. Also a lot speak darija more so than arab, and Amazigh itself has various subdivisions if I'm not mistaken.

Yes this is true, though Darija is mostly derived from Arabic and is somewhat intelligible to me as an Arabic speaker.

I think identity is a complex area in Algeria with no uniform view among Algerians. It does seem as though its become less contested over past decade or so however, with more official recognition for Tamazight and Amazigh identity.

Notably the protests seem to have established wide unity over these major historical divisions ( identity, religion, etc)

 

[tru_m.a.c]

@19- @thatrapsfan

 

[thatrapsfan]

@mbewane did you see this? Not the biggest fan of this guys op-Ed’s typically ( at least ones I’ve read in NYT) but I thought this was great ( good practice for my French too)

 

[FAH1223]

Yes this is true, though Darija is mostly derived from Arabic and is somewhat intelligible to me as an Arabic speaker.

I think identity is a complex area in Algeria with no uniform view among Algerians. It does seem as though its become less contested over past decade or so however, with more official recognition for Tamazight and Amazigh identity.

Notably the protests seem to have established wide unity over these major historical divisions ( identity, religion, etc)

I remember when I studied in Egypt and went to Siwa and listened to those Berberi languages in the Sahara

 

[Baka's Weird Case]

I remember when I studied in Egypt and went to Siwa and listened to those Berberi languages in the Sahara

even the maghrebi accents are for me. mans could be speaking straight FusHa and i have to hit him with the
ala mahlek habibi
edit: the music though

 

[mbewane]

Yes this is true, though Darija is mostly derived from Arabic and is somewhat intelligible to me as an Arabic speaker.

I think identity is a complex area in Algeria with no uniform view among Algerians. It does seem as though its become less contested over past decade or so however, with more official recognition for Tamazight and Amazigh identity.

Notably the protests seem to have established wide unity over these major historical divisions ( identity, religion, etc)

Yeah no doubt, but for example a Lebanese/Syrian friend of mine told me he can barely understand Darija. I have no knowledge of arabic nor darija so I can't speak on it much, just going by people who do told me. This Algerian friend once told me that she doesn't "really speak arabic", and I was like "so you manage in everyday only in french, and despite growing up there you don't speak the language?" (was asking because I lived in CAR but don't speak sango) and she said "oh no, I speak darija, but don't really speak arabic".

Also in this vid seemingly the guy talks about how the system will just replace Boutef by someone else ("pion" being "pawn" in french), the interviewer asks him to speak in arabic and he says "nah I don't speak arabic, I speak darija" (again, going on the translation of algerian friends on fb. Most are applauding him for "standing up" for darija).



But yeah I guess it's quite complex, as in most mediterranean countries. There were tons of Kabylie flags at the demonstration I was, often being flown alongside the Algerian flag.

@mbewane did you see this? Not the biggest fan of this guys op-Ed’s typically ( at least ones I’ve read in NYT) but I thought this was great ( good practice for my French too)

Hmm I'll check it out but I'm no fan at all of Daoud, he's basically become like a local agent France saying exactly what the french public wants to hear ("Algeria is backwards, Islam is terrible", all the usual stuff). Pity because he's a very good writer.

 

[thatrapsfan]

Yeah no doubt, but for example a Lebanese/Syrian friend of mine told me he can barely understand Darija. I have no knowledge of arabic nor darija so I can't speak on it much, just going by people who do told me. This Algerian friend once told me that she doesn't "really speak arabic", and I was like "so you manage in everyday only in french, and despite growing up there you don't speak the language?" (was asking because I lived in CAR but don't speak sango) and she said "oh no, I speak darija, but don't really speak arabic".

Also in this vid seemingly the guy talks about how the system will just replace Boutef by someone else ("pion" being "pawn" in french), the interviewer asks him to speak in arabic and he says "nah I don't speak arabic, I speak darija" (again, going on the translation of algerian friends on fb. Most are applauding him for "standing up" for darija).



But yeah I guess it's quite complex, as in most mediterranean countries. There were tons of Kabylie flags at the demonstration I was, often being flown alongside the Algerian flag.



Hmm I'll check it out but I'm no fan at all of Daoud, he's basically become like a local agent France saying exactly what the french public wants to hear ("Algeria is backwards, Islam is terrible", all the usual stuff). Pity because he's a very good writer.

Haha saw that video going viral as well, its pretty funny. Ironically the female journo is Algerian as well, albeit working for a foreign broadacaster. No doubt Darija is not Arabic, but influenced by it, somewhat akin to a Patois/Pidgin/Creole. I also think Algerians ( and Moroccans as well) are tired of condescension they get from broader Arabic-speaking world for their "bad Arabic" hence that popular reaction.

Yeah not a fan of Daoud for the same reasons, but this interview was much better form IMO. Let me know what you think.

 

[mbewane]

Haha saw that video going viral as well, its pretty funny. Ironically the female journo is Algerian as well, albeit working for a foreign broadacaster. No doubt Darija is not Arabic, but influenced by it, somewhat akin to a Patois/Pidgin/Creole. I also think Algerians ( and Moroccans as well) are tired of condescension they get from broader Arabic-speaking world for their "bad Arabic" hence that popular reaction.

Yeah not a fan of Daoud for the same reasons, but this interview was much better form IMO. Let me know what you think.

Yes that's exactly what they've been telling me, from Morocco even all the way to some Egyptian friends. We tend to somehow "forget" that North Africa was first colonized by Arabs, leading to local knowledge, culture, languages, etc...being brushed aside. So there was a process of alienation that started very early, and those who didn't follow were kind of looked down upon. Obviously those Arabs mixed with locals over the centuries but the fact and stigma still remain, and some have told me that they suspect that this is a part of why North Africa turned towards the ME and turned its back on the rest of Africa. But like a Moroccan friend told me, "except for religion and parts of the language, we don't share anything with Arabs, I'm African".

Watched the interview, must say that I was indeed pleasantly surprised. I'll stay on my guards with him lol but this was good imo

 

[Baka's Weird Case]

Yeah no doubt, but for example a Lebanese/Syrian friend of mine told me he can barely understand Darija. I have no knowledge of arabic nor darija so I can't speak on it much, just going by people who do told me. This Algerian friend once told me that she doesn't "really speak arabic", and I was like "so you manage in everyday only in french, and despite growing up there you don't speak the language?" (was asking because I lived in CAR but don't speak sango) and she said "oh no, I speak darija, but don't really speak arabic".

Also in this vid seemingly the guy talks about how the system will just replace Boutef by someone else ("pion" being "pawn" in french), the interviewer asks him to speak in arabic and he says "nah I don't speak arabic, I speak darija" (again, going on the translation of algerian friends on fb. Most are applauding him for "standing up" for darija).



But yeah I guess it's quite complex, as in most mediterranean countries. There were tons of Kabylie flags at the demonstration I was, often being flown alongside the Algerian flag.



Hmm I'll check it out but I'm no fan at all of Daoud, he's basically become like a local agent France saying exactly what the french public wants to hear ("Algeria is backwards, Islam is terrible", all the usual stuff). Pity because he's a very good writer.

one thing is that in the context of arabic language it isnt unusual for someone from one region to not understand another regions dialect at all. in fact thats pretty much the norm, i have a palestinian friend who was telling me that when he hears yemenis (for example) talking in dialect he can't understand them. and a khaliji (from the gulf) wouldnt be able to understand strong lebanese dialects, like batrouni or terabalisi. syrian, egyptian and modern standard are the most commonly understood ones throughout the arab world though. this difficulty in understanding is probably moreso the case with darija but i wouldnt say that factor makes it not arabic.
i think the bigger issue with that is the idea a lot of arabs have that darija is like improper or bad arabic because of amazigh words and linguistic influence. i work in a mixed english- and arabic-speaking environment and the people i work with (maghrebi and non-maghrebi arabic) definitely consider darija a part of the arabic language. but that could also be effected by the fact that the field we work in is based around interest in "arab societies" and people are more likely to have an arab-focused perspective.

 

[thatrapsfan]

Yes that's exactly what they've been telling me, from Morocco even all the way to some Egyptian friends. We tend to somehow "forget" that North Africa was first colonized by Arabs, leading to local knowledge, culture, languages, etc...being brushed aside. So there was a process of alienation that started very early, and those who didn't follow were kind of looked down upon. Obviously those Arabs mixed with locals over the centuries but the fact and stigma still remain, and some have told me that they suspect that this is a part of why North Africa turned towards the ME and turned its back on the rest of Africa. But like a Moroccan friend told me, "except for religion and parts of the language, we don't share anything with Arabs, I'm African".

Watched the interview, must say that I was indeed pleasantly surprised. I'll stay on my guards with him lol but this was good imo

Egypt is different IMO - I think there the ethnicity/identiy debate corresponds much closer to religious lines ( between Copts and Muslim majority). Copts are far more likely to identify as Egyptian only, while Muslim majority is far more likely to ID as Arab ( though both arent always mutually exclusive with identifying as African as well).

Egypt was a leading country in the Arab nationalist movement in the mid 20th cenutry, and set the agenda on how this debate/topic has developed in the modern era. Egyptians was also a leading country in cultural production in Arabic ( films, books, media etc) in the 20th century, and still remain so to a extent - as a result Egyptian Arabic is ubiqitous and understandable to all Arabic speakers. All this to say, the sort of condescension Darija speaking countries face is not lobbed at Egypt.

Generally though Arab identity when seen through an ethnic lens is extremely imprecise and will face push back even in the "traditional" Arab world. For example you will find Lebanese and even some Syrians who will argue they arent Arab on account of their ancestry. It could be understood as a pushback against the all encompasing views associated with Arab nationalism. Its probably easier to understand the category through linguistics rather than through lineage ( and thats how it was understood prior to modern era many would argue).