Red Shield
Global Domination
Folks already stated some of the reasons.. but yeah.
Not happening, not with the type of history europe has.
Not happening, not with the type of history europe has.
German SPD leader seeks "United States of Europe" by 2025
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Berlin Conference v2.0.1 coming soon.
Biggest economy
Yes
Germans don't learn do they.
Recca Gatsby
LWO
Lol Germany got some gall boy I tell you
mbewane
Knicks: 93 til infinity
He's right, but coming from a German it won't be accepted (as we can see in this thread).
The way forward for the EU is a federation, an idea that has quite some support over the continent, but that few politicians can afford to really support. The very structure of the EU makes it harder to constitute a true european policy, as everyone (parliamentaries, members of the commision) are still designated/voted at the national level.
The problem is that the vast majority of people have little political imagination/vision and can only compare the EU to what they know : nation-states, and existing monolingual and basically mono-cultural federations. That's why most people say the EU is "doomed" because it doesn't resemble anything they know, and also because many people have an interest in it not working.
The way forward for the EU is a federation, an idea that has quite some support over the continent, but that few politicians can afford to really support. The very structure of the EU makes it harder to constitute a true european policy, as everyone (parliamentaries, members of the commision) are still designated/voted at the national level.
The problem is that the vast majority of people have little political imagination/vision and can only compare the EU to what they know : nation-states, and existing monolingual and basically mono-cultural federations. That's why most people say the EU is "doomed" because it doesn't resemble anything they know, and also because many people have an interest in it not working.
So you're actually European if I remember so I probably sound ignorant so feel free to correct anything ignorant I might say.
But to your last point. I just finished watching some vice documentary on the refugee migration from Africa and the middle east into Europe, and to me, it only highlighted what I think is driving disdain for the EU. In this documentary they followed people from Africa migrating into Spain via Morocco and touched on "pushback" policies and how the Spanish government were sending these people back to Morocco immediately and this violates EU law supposedly because once a refugee touches a European nation's ground, you have to put them through the normal legal channels and courts before sending them back.
I'm sorry but this is one area I think political priorities are screwed up and I understand why in response the Spanish government in turn locally, passed laws basically saying fukk you to the EU and made "Pushbacks" easier in Spain. As I said, you're starting to get into a situation where the dynamic that is experienced locally by the government and what can be successfully sold to the public is some entity outside of the local state dictating what a country can and can't do in its own borders. This is like a homeless person busting into my house, having some third party tell me I MUST let this person in and in the mean time I have to go through some bureaucratic appeal process to get them the fukk out of my house and I have no say in the matter in the mean time.
This dynamic is understandably going to piss people the fukk off. The EU's interest stop feeling like Spanish interests and I think it will be very hard for you to convince a bunch of different states to feel like their individual interests has to fall behind some more disconnected EU project interest.
I mean having "imagingation" and a "vision" really only boils down to asking me to have faith it will work out in the end and also at the same time ignore issues I have with the idea in the now.
You're, realistically speaking, asking a lot from people to have this happen without major issue.
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mbewane
Knicks: 93 til infinity
What you're saying is not ignorant at all, it's a logical pov and one who is shared by a lot of people in the EU too. The migration issue is a very special one, because we can discuss it ad nauseam but geography means that southern euro countries are the first exposed, no matter what.
Before we get into technicalities, we must always remember that "the EU" is not some entity hovering above the continent : it is made by the member states (including Spain), meaning every single position the EU holds is either directly approved by the countries either within the powers that the countries (including Spain) DECIDED to move at the EU level. What I'm saying is that the EU does not act outside of the powers that were first given to it by the member states. That's why the EU cannot, to use another example, impose the right to abortion to any EU country, because that's out of its powers. So whatever EU rules regulate migration, they were approved, at some point, by Spain. Or Spain delegated that area of competence to the EU. You can't accept that when it works for you, then withdraw when it doesn't. (Actually you can, that's been the UKs modus operandi for ages, all the way up to the BRexit, Denmark too has various "opt-outs").
But to be more specific, migration issues in the EU are regulated by the Dublin convention which...Spain signed. As in any agreement, sometimes it works for you, sometimes it doesn't, but once you sign an agreement the understanding is that you will act on it in good faith. Otherwise, don't sign it (Denmark didn't sign it initially, then did).
Having said that, the migration issue is actually an area where MORE EU would help Spain. Why? Because the EU's plan is precisely to take off some pressure off southern european countries (Spain, Italy, Greece...) and to relocate asylum seekers who get there in other EU countries, on the basis that there's no reason that those countries, just for geographical reasons, should shoulder more of the burden than other countries that escape this crisis thanks to where they are. That's the meaning of a european solidarity policy. BUT, in order to enforce that, the EU should have the power to impose such relocation to those countries who don't want asylum seekers on their soil. Obviously, due to the usual populist rah-rah, they don't. So the EU can't help Spain in that department, precisely because national interests still trump EU interests.
Also to be even more specific, Spain is one of the countries that have the most benefited from being in the Euro coming out of the Franco dictatorship, especially at the economic level (again, thanks to a european solidarity policy, that rerouted money from wealthier EU countries to Spain in order to help it develop economically) That obviously is the good part of being in the EU which no one writes articles about, that no politician will bring up in campaign and that people take for granted. But indeed, as in any agreement (the EU is basically a huge series of international agreements), it's easier to focus on what doesn't work than on what does.
That's what I mean with the whole "imagination" and "vision" thing : it's understanding, at some point, that you're now dealing with all these issues (migration, but also economy, education, security, etc) not at the national level, but at the EU level, which already is the case in the facts, but not in the minds. Indeed, it's a leap of faith in many ways, I'm well aware of that, because the nation-state has forged our mentalities and something like the EU is totally unprecedented. And the severe lack of communication and of how the EU works in various areas for every single member state means that it's easier to point out what doesn't work than what does, and to stay in the nation-state mindframe. But that mindframe is not the alpha and omega of everything, it's only been around for a couple of centuries. New forms can be invented, and the EU already is one, but yeah it takes time
Black Nate Grey
The God Emperor of Mankind
I hope it happens because it will fail. Cultures are too different for it to succeed.
What you're saying is not ignorant at all, it's a logical pov and one who is shared by a lot of people in the EU too. The migration issue is a very special one, because we can discuss it ad nauseam but geography means that southern euro countries are the first exposed, no matter what.
Before we get into technicalities, we must always remember that "the EU" is not some entity hovering above the continent : it is made by the member states (including Spain), meaning every single position the EU holds is either directly approved by the countries either within the powers that the countries (including Spain) DECIDED to move at the EU level. What I'm saying is that the EU does not act outside of the powers that were first given to it by the member states. That's why the EU cannot, to use another example, impose the right to abortion to any EU country, because that's out of its powers. So whatever EU rules regulate migration, they were approved, at some point, by Spain. Or Spain delegated that area of competence to the EU. You can't accept that when it works for you, then withdraw when it doesn't. (Actually you can, that's been the UKs modus operandi for ages, all the way up to the BRexit, Denmark too has various "opt-outs").
But to be more specific, migration issues in the EU are regulated by the Dublin convention which...Spain signed. As in any agreement, sometimes it works for you, sometimes it doesn't, but once you sign an agreement the understanding is that you will act on it in good faith. Otherwise, don't sign it (Denmark didn't sign it initially, then did).
Having said that, the migration issue is actually an area where MORE EU would help Spain. Why? Because the EU's plan is precisely to take off some pressure off southern european countries (Spain, Italy, Greece...) and to relocate asylum seekers who get there in other EU countries, on the basis that there's no reason that those countries, just for geographical reasons, should shoulder more of the burden than other countries that escape this crisis thanks to where they are. That's the meaning of a european solidarity policy. BUT, in order to enforce that, the EU should have the power to impose such relocation to those countries who don't want asylum seekers on their soil. Obviously, due to the usual populist rah-rah, they don't. So the EU can't help Spain in that department, precisely because national interests still trump EU interests.
Also to be even more specific, Spain is one of the countries that have the most benefited from being in the Euro coming out of the Franco dictatorship, especially at the economic level (again, thanks to a european solidarity policy, that rerouted money from wealthier EU countries to Spain in order to help it develop economically) That obviously is the good part of being in the EU which no one writes articles about, that no politician will bring up in campaign and that people take for granted. But indeed, as in any agreement (the EU is basically a huge series of international agreements), it's easier to focus on what doesn't work than on what does.
That's what I mean with the whole "imagination" and "vision" thing : it's understanding, at some point, that you're now dealing with all these issues (migration, but also economy, education, security, etc) not at the national level, but at the EU level, which already is the case in the facts, but not in the minds. Indeed, it's a leap of faith in many ways, I'm well aware of that, because the nation-state has forged our mentalities and something like the EU is totally unprecedented. And the severe lack of communication and of how the EU works in various areas for every single member state means that it's easier to point out what doesn't work than what does, and to stay in the nation-state mindframe. But that mindframe is not the alpha and omega of everything, it's only been around for a couple of centuries. New forms can be invented, and the EU already is one, but yeah it takes time
Thanks for educating me further on how it works. I guess at the end I'm very pessimistic though. It will be very hard to get people to think outside of the nation state mindset. Also in regards to this piece here
But, don't some states have more bargaining power than others? Why does the perception exist that Germany calls all the shots? Is there an unequal power dynamic in this arrangement?
It's an economic union, being the largest economy will do that.
With UK pulling out and Trump being Trump, it will be easier for EU countries to be open to an US vs THEM message. No there won't be any "United States of Europe" any time soon, but closer cooperation is likely
mbewane
Knicks: 93 til infinity
Also in regards to this piece here
But, don't some states have more bargaining power than others? Why does the perception exist that Germany calls all the shots? Is there an unequal power dynamic in this arrangement?
Yeah don't get me wrong it's complicated and whatnot, but the very fact it does all it does is a huge achievement already. Lest we forget western europe has NEVER had 60 years without some sort of war going on. Again, people are quick to forget the positive and focus on the negative. And whenever you hear someone criticize the EU, think about what their position is and WHY they are criticizing it (just like any critics). A lot of people have interests in seeing the EU fail...and it's been reported as "doomed" since the Rome Treaty was signed.
Anyways yeah you're right just like in any union/agreement/whaever, some countries/states/areas have more power than others. Just like in France Paris has more leverage than Metz, or I guess Idaho has less leverage than California maybe. There are various ways to tweak this (for example, in the European Parliament it's not a strict mathematical rule that allocates the number of MEPs, the ratio...over-represents small countries, and under-represents larger ones). That's bound to happen in any organization (the US can basically do what it wants at the UN, Malawi can't). That's just politics and the way things are, but for example also in the Commission, no matter what the size of the country, it gets one representative. Germany has one, just like Latvia. But obviously Germany is the most populated and more powerful country in Europe, EU or not, so obviously it has more leverage.
With all that being said, historically it's smaller countries that are in favor for MORE EU, because they understand it's a way to play "above" their league. That's why Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxemburg created Benelux even before the EU existed, and generally always favor more integration, and why all those small Eastern countries rushed to get in as soon as they could. It's the bigger countries that usually are against it, because they hang on to their power.