Gil's Arena UPDATE: Stephen A pulled up for smoke Update 2: "Standup Steve.." Mccants backs down

[Primetime]

I mean, i was in high school at the time and TMac being as good or better than Kobe was a definitely a thing, however brief it lasted.

2003 GM Survey

If you were starting a franchise today and could sign any player in the NBA, who would it be?
1. Shaquille O’Neal, L.A. Lakers – 64.0%
2. Tim Duncan, San Antonio – 28.0%
T-3. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers – 4.0%
T-3. Tracy McGrady, Orlando – 4.0%

Who is the NBA’s best shooting guard?
1. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers – 92.3%
T-2. Michael Jordan, Washington – 3.8%
T-2. Paul Pierce, Boston – 3.8%

Who is the NBA’s best small forward?
1. Tracy McGrady, Orlando – 65.4%
2. Kevin Garnett, Minnesota – 19.2%
3. Paul Pierce, Boston – 7.7%
T-4. Dirk Nowitzki, Dallas – 3.8%
T-4. Peja Stojakovic, Sacramento – 3.8%

Who is the most versatile defender in the NBA?
1. Kevin Garnett – 23.1%
T-2. Tracy McGrady – 11.5%
T-2. Ben Wallace – 11.5%
T-4. Kobe Bryant – 7.7%
T-4. Gary Payton – 7.7%

Which player is best at making his teammates better?
1. Jason Kidd, New Jersey – 76.2%
2. Tim Duncan, San Antonio – 19.0%
3. Tracy McGrady, Orlando – 4.8%

The GMs felt that way, the players felt that, definitely ppl in high school felt that way... Kobe i believe even acknowledged it was thing...

It'd be like if 20 years from now ppl were to suddenly pretend like KD being as good or better than LeBron wasn't a thing back in 2017.

 

[Big Boss]

Did people just forget about Allen Iverson in the early 00s???

 

[Barney Rubble]

Did people just forget about Allen Iverson in the early 00s???

Iverson was the most popular, Shaq and Duncan were considered the best, but Kobe and TMac were just compared more. Kinda like how Jokic and Embiid were.

 

[Rell84shots]

Gil moved the goalpost. The conversation was about TMac saying put him on that Laker team and he will win with Shaq as much as Kobe.

That’s what got BJ up in arms and then Nick said no one was talking about TMac being better. As good as, yeah. But better, he was saying no.

Either way, it’s all opinion. Not that there wasn’t a conversation being had, because there definitely was. But it’s an opinion to say TMac is better. It’s an opinion to say the hypothetical chance of TMac being a Laker and him winning as much as Kobe. And that’s what Nick got upset about, because he disagreed and Gil saying “there were talks” doesn’t mean that it’s facts like he kept saying. The only facts are there were:

1. Conversations about who was better for like a year or two by some.

2. Kobe and Shaq 3peated

3. TMac never won a playoff series.

Those are the only facts involved in all this and Gil saying anything else is typical mouth breathing bullshyt.

I actually lost respect for TMac in that interview because for him to sit there and say “if I had the opportunity” like this nikka wasn’t a premier player in the league that rivaled Kobe for a time. nikka you had plenty of chances, you just failed, repeatedly. To sit there and say you are a “championship caliber player” while never even competing for the championship, let alone winning would’ve been the quickest and loudest “fukk Naw” on TV that wasn’t Pat.

So no, Lakers not winning a title with TMac despite his numbers on a whole different team being comparable to Kobe’s. He don’t have the mental toughness to fight with that version of Shaq and still get those performances that Kobe did. He dont have the intangibles to replace Kobe and think he winning on that Laker team. His words right now showing that he don’t have what it takes to weather that storm. He not gonna battle Shaq for dominance of that team. He not gonna tell Shaq “Yo ass not getting this ball the rest of the night”. He not gonna force Shaq feel like he has to prove himself to TMac because of all that. He literally don’t have it in him deal with the type of dude Shaq was back then. Shaq would’ve ate that nikka alive.

And he hasn’t played in a system like the triangle that severely limits a wing player. Kobe was Kobe DESPITE the triangle and most players struggled to figure it out. I’m not just giving all that to TMac.

He wouldnt have won with Shaq and he definitely wouldn’t have won with Gasol. What I CAN say is Kobe DID win with Shaq and would’ve MOST DEFINITELY won 1 with that Rockets team.

It’s weird that TMac even tried to replace Kobe to make an argument for himself. That’s supposed to be your boy, you could’ve used someone else to make that same point. Knocked kneed, lazy eyed muthafukka. He used to be one of favorite players.

The problem with that statement is that he has nothing on his resume to support that argument. I hated that whole segment on First Take because it was just bruised egos trying to cope. T-Mac & Gil had chances to and both failed.

 

[Sterling Archer]

I mean, i was in high school at the time and TMac being as good or better than Kobe was a definitely a thing, however brief it lasted.

2003 GM Survey



The GMs felt that way, the players felt that, definitely ppl in high school felt that way... Kobe i believe even acknowledged it was thing...

It'd be like if 20 years from now ppl were to suddenly pretend like KD being as good or better than LeBron wasn't a thing back in 2017.

But that’s not what the segment was about or what this conversation on Gil started as. It’s what Gil tried to turn it into. The conversation was at TMac would win just as much as Kobe did if you replaced him. That’s the conversation and it’s hypothetical. Gil THEN tried to turn it into well “We talked about who was better back then” and tried to translate that to mean TMac would win too as a fact based on a disputed opinion between the two. Nowhere in that space can you say something is a fact. It was a failed attempt to try and push an opinion up to factual and Nick wasn’t going.

So yeah, there was a short span where McGrady had numbers to rival Kobe. But that don’t mean he can fill Kobe’s shoes in the conditions and environment Kobe was in. Avg 30 with whoever the fukk ain’t the same as avg 30 with Shaq. You have to compete against your own teammate as much as the other team in that environment. I don’t think anyone but Kobe and Jordan could thrive under those conditions. Comparable numbers don’t put you in the same space.

That’s like saying replace Curry with SGA on the Warriors and they win just because the numbers are comparable. Nah.

 

[cartierhoe]

Gil moved the goalpost. The conversation was about TMac saying put him on that Laker team and he will win with Shaq as much as Kobe.

That’s what got BJ up in arms and then Nick said no one was talking about TMac being better. As good as, yeah. But better, he was saying no.

Either way, it’s all opinion. Not that there wasn’t a conversation being had, because there definitely was. But it’s an opinion to say TMac is better. It’s an opinion to say the hypothetical chance of TMac being a Laker and him winning as much as Kobe. And that’s what Nick got upset about, because he disagreed and Gil saying “there were talks” doesn’t mean that it’s facts like he kept saying. The only facts are there were:

1. Conversations about who was better for like a year or two by some.

2. Kobe and Shaq 3peated

3. TMac never won a playoff series.

Those are the only facts involved in all this and Gil saying anything else is typical mouth breathing bullshyt.

I actually lost respect for TMac in that interview because for him to sit there and say “if I had the opportunity” like this nikka wasn’t a premier player in the league that rivaled Kobe for a time. nikka you had plenty of chances, you just failed, repeatedly. To sit there and say you are a “championship caliber player” while never even competing for the championship, let alone winning would’ve been the quickest and loudest “fukk Naw” on TV that wasn’t Pat.

So no, Lakers not winning a title with TMac despite his numbers on a whole different team being comparable to Kobe’s. He don’t have the mental toughness to fight with that version of Shaq and still get those performances that Kobe did. He dont have the intangibles to replace Kobe and think he winning on that Laker team. His words right now showing that he don’t have what it takes to weather that storm. He not gonna battle Shaq for dominance of that team. He not gonna tell Shaq “Yo ass not getting this ball the rest of the night”. He not gonna force Shaq feel like he has to prove himself to TMac because of all that. He literally don’t have it in him deal with the type of dude Shaq was back then. Shaq would’ve ate that nikka alive.

And he hasn’t played in a system like the triangle that severely limits a wing player. Kobe was Kobe DESPITE the triangle and most players struggled to figure it out. I’m not just giving all that to TMac.

He wouldnt have won with Shaq and he definitely wouldn’t have won with Gasol. What I CAN say is Kobe DID win with Shaq and would’ve MOST DEFINITELY won 1 with that Rockets team.

It’s weird that TMac even tried to replace Kobe to make an argument for himself. That’s supposed to be your boy, you could’ve used someone else to make that same point. Knocked kneed, lazy eyed muthafukka. He used to be one of favorite players.

This is the most crucial aspect and what a lot of people are missing about this whole discussion to me. Yeah, just looking at the numbers one could assume T-Mac could probably win at least one chip but what made the Kobe/Shaq dynamic work so well was the intangibles Kobe brought to the table. That attitude of I'm gonna challenge everybody, even Shaq. Shaq himself said this in their one on one sit down a couple years before Kobe passed, he said he didn't workout during the off-season and wanted to vacation and have fun because he knew he had a guy like Kobe who was gonna get the best out of him when the season did come around. Kobe said that's what pissed him off about Shaq the most, which is why he felt the need to be so hard and push Shaq like nobody else would. Nobody else had that intangible like Kobe had to get under guys' skin to get the best out of folks. It's not just simply the numbers.

Timestamped:

 

[Primetime]

But that’s not what the segment was about or what this conversation on Gil started as. It’s what Gil tried to turn it into. The conversation was at TMac would win just as much as Kobe did if you replaced him. That’s the conversation and it’s hypothetical. Gil THEN tried to turn it into well “We talked about who was better back then” and tried to translate that to mean TMac would win too as a fact based on a disputed opinion between the two. Nowhere in that space can you say something is a fact. It was a failed attempt to try and push an opinion up to factual and Nick wasn’t going.

So yeah, there was a short span where McGrady had numbers to rival Kobe. But that don’t mean he can fill Kobe’s shoes in the conditions and environment Kobe was in. Avg 30 with whoever the fukk ain’t the same as avg 30 with Shaq. You have to compete against your own teammate as much as the other team in that environment. I don’t think anyone but Kobe and Jordan could thrive under those conditions. Comparable numbers don’t put you in the same space.

That’s like saying replace Curry with SGA on the Warriors and they win just because the numbers are comparable. Nah.

Whether or not TMac could fill Kobe's shoes is a discussion they never got to have, because they couldn't get over the "fact" that many ppl back in 2003 viewed Kobe and TMac as equals

Whether ppl agreed with those ppl or found it fair/logical etc is one thing but Nick couldn't comprehend what Artest, Gil, and Kenyon were saying, which should've just been a footnote to start the discussion/debate..

It's what' makes listening to them feel like losing brain cells

Like simply acknowledge that yes, ppl thought those two were equal back in 2003 (don't have to agree with those ppl) and then go into whether you agree that Kobe could be replaced by TMac or any star.

But that's not what they did

Even Artest was like... yo, I thought Kobe was better but this is what ppl were saying. Artest... being the most rationale, level-headed muthafukka

 

[Jplaya2023]

Is it a knock on kobe to say players like tmac, vince, ai, and pierce would win a title or 2 if they played with Shaq?

Is it a knock on Shaq to say players like KG, Duncan, Dirk, CWebb (before the injury) cpuld win a title or 2 if they played with Kobe?

 

[RennisDeynolds]

Whether or not TMac could fill Kobe's shoes is a discussion they never got to have, because they couldn't get over the "fact" that many ppl back in 2003 viewed Kobe and TMac as equals

Whether ppl agreed with those ppl or found it fair/logical etc is one thing but Nick couldn't comprehend what Artest, Gil, and Kenyon were saying, which should've just been a footnote to start the discussion/debate..

It's what' makes listening to them feel like losing brain cells

Like simply acknowledge that yes, ppl thought those two were equal back in 2003 (don't have to agree with those ppl) and then go into whether you agree that Kobe could be replaced by TMac or any star.

But that's not what they did

Even Artest was like... yo, I thought Kobe was better but this is what ppl were saying. Artest... being the most rationale, level-headed muthafukka

Ron used to be a real crash out he not moved by fake temper tantrums


Hes got his demons under control now so hes just voicing opinions and having convos lol

 

[RennisDeynolds]

I like how nobody can get props except Kobe to NBA twitter. People been giving T Mac props lately and they up in arms talking about backstabbing


T Mac was best friends with Kobe

 

[TGainz]

I’d be emotional too if I couldn’t tap Trina no more

 

[T-K-G]

I was a Tmac fan until I went to see the Magic vs. the Lakers in Orlando when I was a jit



Ended up having the same hotel as the Lakers, they beat the magic and i met the whole team in the lobby afterwards even shaq cuz he pulled up to wait on them to get dressed to hit up his spot for dinner

Kobe was just taking nikkas fans away

 

[NO-BadAzz]

Show was good today

 

[Ozymandeas]

T-Mac had support for being best in the league, but during that time in the early 00s, Iverson had WAY more fans rocking with him than both of them dudes.

Iverson's MVP year and Finals run had him outta here in terms of popularity. I don't remember many people saying they would take T-Mac over Iverson.

It's weird too cause Kobe was so cold that even tho a lot of people might not have liked him because of the MJ biting, mostly everybody respected him as the best perimeter player despite Iverson being A LOT of people's favorite player... if that makes sense.

I grew to become a Kobe fan later but I was an Iverson fan back then. I grew up mostly in Delaware which is 30 minutes from Philly so the Iverson craze was serious over there. My feelings at the time was that it was unfair because Shaq was destroying Dikembe. His defense was more of an annoying hinderance on Shaq than actually stopping anything. Like he tried his best to defend him but he wasn’t strong enough. And then with Kobe, I oscillated from thinking “you wouldn’t be beating AI playing on your own fukk boy” to being because Kobe was 6”6 and even if AI was shaking him at points, Kobe was big enough to recover. Had me wishing AI was at least 6”3 so it wouldn’t be so bad. In hindsight, Philly was NOT serious. They had AI paired with nobody. If he had Garnett, or Dirk, or Rasheed Wallace or Elton Brand, AI would’ve had enough help to make it a real series.

Going back to Kobe. He proved later on that he was that guy. He wasn’t a Tony Parker or a Jamal Murray type player who was only playing good because of who they were next to. Bean scored 40 points for 9 games straight, 50 points for 5 games, went to three championships. He was always an extremely talented guy and people just didn’t want to accept it because we were so mad about the Lakers dominance and because Shaq made it easy to think the other players next to him weren’t doing anything. I got over my hate for Kobe around 2004ish, 2005ish and I realized he was a beast. T-Mac was only comparable to Kobe for like 1-2 years imo (like 2002 to 2003). Maybe they might have won one ring but T-Mac and Shaq weren’t winning three. Kobe had to step up multiple times in the WC playoffs when Shaq was being guarded well and T-Mac wilted too much for me to be confident he could do what Kobe did consistently.

 

[Ozymandeas]

My thing with that convo is that people ignore two factors IMO. One is that the Lakers barely scraped by two of those years. It's not like they just ran through the league all three years so just dropping any other good perimeter players wasn't a guaranteed success. Especially with Kobe at that time being so great on both ends of the court.

The second thing people ignore is that it takes a special kind of a$$hole to average 27/28 playing with Shaq. It took T-Mac getting away from Vince to really break out and show how much of a beast he was. If T-Mac played with Shaq I could easily see him being too passive to make the Lakers as much of a force. I think T-Mac had the talent but not the personality to be as dominant playing next to Shaq.

Lakers were most dominant in 2001. In 2000 and 2002, it could’ve easily gone the other way in the Western Conference.