Goldman Sachs investment bankers have had it. Calling for a 80 hour cap and systemic changes.

[dora_da_destroyer]

Do you feel the same way about unpaid internships? What about fraternity hazing?

To me, they are all equally machoistic. Why is it that a woman who puts you through hell to prove your worth/love is insecure but when a company does it, it is respected and unchallenged?

the difference is the person who goes through with this challenge feels the reward is worth it. most unpaid internships are in industries where demand far exceeds supply - i.e. the entertainment industry - if experience and networking are critical to your success and ability to break into that field, you do it because there is upside.

same with these bankers, they put up with it because it's the foundation to $500k+/yr salaries (at a relatively young age on top of that - their 30's). there aren't a ton of these positions, if they stop taking them, banks can easily cast a wider net to top 50 schools instead of just top 25, or hit HBCU's, etc to bring in people who'd otherwise never have the chance to compete for these roles. i don't think anyone respects the way they treat jr. bankers, but it hasn't changed due to demand and the number of people who'll put up with it for the prestige, future opportunities, and money

 

[Frangala]

I work at a firm (not investment banking, but financial nonetheless) and manage our interns and junior staff. The competition aspect is one of the major problems. You got kids straight outta college who think the best way to stick around is to work 24/7. Arrive early, leave late, work all night from home and then come in the next day to do it again. That doesn't impress me at all. I'm far more interested in how you think/problem solve, and how you maximize your time. I'm not interested in someone who works nonstop because there's no way your productivity is going to remain consistent. You need lunch, you need rest, etc. If you can't balance that, I'm not interested. That's not to say we don't work extremely hard - I expect you to. But I also expect you to understand that the things you do outside the office (rest, eating, prepping for work, etc) determine how hard you can actually work.

Another thing I notice...older employees who take advantage of juniors and interns. I shut that shyt down as much as I can.

In addition, the talent pipeline in IB and prestigious financial services firms come from "target" schools (i.e top ranked universities/colleges think Ivy League in the US Oxford, Cambridge in the UK). So if you have kids one who either come from target schools and non target AND come from backgrounds where they are the first in their families to delve into this field and did not have the network but somehow worked hard and got into the door.

They are more susceptible to feeling huge pressure (I have seen it in my own eyes) where junior staff who don't come from the traditional background (i.e non Ivy and/or first generation college grad who feel the pressure not to disappoint family and fear of not breaking stereotypes about the minority group they represent)

 

[Macallik86]

the difference is the person who goes through with this challenge feels the reward is worth it. most unpaid internships are in industries where demand far exceeds supply - i.e. the entertainment industry - if experience and networking are critical to your success and ability to break into that field, you do it because there is upside.

same with these bankers, they put up with it because it's the foundation to $500k+/yr salaries (at a relatively young age on top of that - their 30's). there aren't a ton of these positions, if they stop taking them, banks can easily cast a wider net to top 50 schools instead of just top 25, or hit HBCU's, etc to bring in people who'd otherwise never have the chance to compete for these roles. i don't think anyone respects the way they treat jr. bankers, but it hasn't changed due to demand and the number of people who'll put up with it for the prestige, future opportunities, and money

Yes, I understand the dynamic. My point is that objectively, it is a rationalization.

Abused women rationalize that no one else wants them, or they are lucky to be with this guy even tho he beats her, or this is how they prove how much they are loved. Jr Interns rationalize that this is how everyone is treated, or they are lucky to be with such an esteemed company, or this is how they prove their worth.

Objectively, Supply and Demand should not dictate morals/ethics. Celebrities who can sleep with anyone don't get a pass to abuse strangers because they are in demand.

At the end of the day, it is a rationalization that there aren't opportunities out there to make money without being treated like shyt.

 

[Ozymandeas]

Why not just hire 2x the workers, pay everyone $80K instead of $150K and have them work 50 hours a week instead of 100 hours

 

[dora_da_destroyer]

Yes, I understand the dynamic. My point is that objectively, it is a rationalization.

Abused women rationalize that no one else wants them, or they are lucky to be with this guy even tho he beats her, or this is how they prove how much they are loved. Jr Interns rationalize that this is how everyone is treated, or they are lucky to be with such an esteemed company, or this is how they prove their worth.

Objectively, Supply and Demand should not dictate morals/ethics. Celebrities who can sleep with anyone don't get a pass to abuse strangers because they are in demand.

At the end of the day, it is a rationalization that there aren't opportunities out there to make money without being treated like shyt.

i don't see the point of bringing in these male/female examples.

and it's not a rationalization, it's about what you're willing to accept for the $/and opportunities. no one is rationalizing that this is the only field where you can make a nice living, but one, pretty much no other industry is touching these salaries en masse outside of being a SWE with tons of equity in big tech or being early to join a high flying unicorn that IPOs, and making partner at a top consulting firm (jr consultants are treated like shyt and work long hours too) but if you want to work in high finance - either keep going in banking, or move over to hedge funds, private equity or even VC to an extent, working in IBD is the entry level requisite to recruit for and gain access to those jobs.

it really comes down to do you want to work in finance or just make nice money - if you want nice money, there are multiple paths, if you want to be in high finance, this is the path 90% of people will have to take (same as the shyt you have to put up with early on if you want to be a doctor/surgeon)

 

[killacal]

Why not just hire 2x the workers, pay everyone $80K instead of $150K and have them work 50 hours a week instead of 100 hours

Not everyone can do the job

And when you find a good investor, that's essentially printing money for you, you dont want them to go home... ever

America is a disgusting place

 

[Macallik86]

i don't see the point of bringing in these male/female examples.

and it's not a rationalization, it's about what you're willing to accept for the $/and opportunities. no one is rationalizing that this is the only field where you can make a nice living, but one, pretty much no other industry is touching these salaries en masse outside of being a SWE with tons of equity in big tech or being early to join a high flying unicorn that IPOs, and making partner at a top consulting firm (jr consultants are treated like shyt and work long hours too) but if you want to work in high finance - either keep going in banking, or move over to hedge funds, private equity or even VC to an extent, working in IBD is the entry level requisite to recruit for and gain access to those jobs.

it really comes down to do you want to work in finance or just make nice money - if you want nice money, there are multiple paths, if you want to be in high finance, this is the path 90% of people will have to take (same as the shyt you have to put up with early on if you want to be a doctor/surgeon)

My male/female examples illustrate how it is seen as toxic when done by a person. You are stating things like:

pretty much no other industry is touching these salaries

yet for me, there is a clear analogy in male/female examples (ie: a woman who is well kept but dealing with an abusive partner). Everything the woman says about her partner providing her a lifestyle that few men can, is simply a rationalization that doesn't negate that he is cruel and unreasonable as a person.

What you see as logical reasons to put up with the abuse from companies, I just see as more rationalizations. We might as well just agree to disagree at this point because I don't there is any financial incentive that can justify unnecessary abuse/exploitation, while you have a price.

 

[dora_da_destroyer]

My male/female examples illustrate how it is seen as toxic when done by a person. You are stating things like:


yet for me, there is a clear analogy in male/female examples (ie: a woman who is well kept but dealing with an abusive partner). Everything the woman says about her partner providing her a lifestyle that few men can, is simply a rationalization that doesn't negate that he is cruel and unreasonable as a person.

What you see as logical reasons to put up with the abuse from companies, I just see as more rationalizations. We might as well just agree to disagree at this point because I don't there is any financial incentive that can justify unnecessary abuse/exploitation, while you have a price.

i don't have a price, which is why i don't work in those fields.

but a rationalization happens when you have options - a woman has more options to find a new man & happiness and companionship elsewhere, but rationalizes that a particular man's resources are worth more than a healthy relationship. if the end goal is a man - she has plenty of options.

if you want to work in high finance, it's not a rationalization to stay in IBD as that's pretty much the path you have to travel to meet your goal. you can't just jump to being a marketing manager and still get a finance job in private equity. you can't go be a teacher and then come back to banking as a director. outside of true anomalies, if the goal is high finance, the average person going into that field does not have the option to not do IDB.

we simply have different views of a what constitutes rationalizing. working at a shytty tech company because you fear you won't get hired again, that's rationalization as there are tons of tech companies where you can have a better work culture. if the entire industry is shytty, but tech is what you want to do, then it's acceptance - not rationalization.

 

[NaijaProdigy Redux]

Why not just hire 2x the workers, pay everyone $80K instead of $150K and have them work 50 hours a week instead of 100 hours

Tradition

 

[MoneyTron]

I remember one of my former bosses saying he used to sleep underneath his desk when he was at GS.

 

[Macallik86]

i don't have a price, which is why i don't work in those fields.

but a rationalization happens when you have options - a woman has more options to find a new man & happiness and companionship elsewhere, but rationalizes that a particular man's resources are worth more than a healthy relationship. if the end goal is a man - she has plenty of options.

if you want to work in high finance, it's not a rationalization to stay in IBD as that's pretty much the path you have to travel to meet your goal. you can't just jump to being a marketing manager and still get a finance job in private equity. you can't go be a teacher and then come back to banking as a director. outside of true anomalies, if the goal is high finance, the average person going into that field does not have the option to not do IDB.

"All the women I know who date rich men get treated poorly therefore, I accept that this is the lifestyle I have to endure to be with a rich man. I have rationalized that I only want to be involved in IBD with a rich man to the point that it supersedes everything else and so I'm willing to put my happiness and mental health on the line for it"

 

[Mike809]

Goldman Sachs about to him them with the :

 

[dora_da_destroyer]

Why not just hire 2x the workers, pay everyone $80K instead of $150K and have them work 50 hours a week instead of 100 hours

pay and prestige are two of the main drivers for kids to enter this field, when both are diluted, you no longer attract the top prospects which also dilutes the brand of the company. it's a self-fulfilling circle. GS can say they have all these harvard, Stanford, princeton kids working there - they become sought after from clients because they supposedly have the brightest people working for them, and when these kids can say they work at the elite GS, with all the other kids from the ivy's, and that hey got one of 200 openings that year, they benefit from the prestige factor as well.

"All the women I know who date rich men get treated poorly therefore, I accept that this is the lifestyle I have to endure to be with a rich man. I have rationalized that I only want to be involved in IBD with a rich man to the point that it supersedes everything else and so I'm willing to put my happiness and mental health on the line for it"

like i said, we have a different idea of what rationalizing is.

the action of attempting to explain or justify behavior or an attitude with logical reasons, even if these are not appropriate.

where there are options, you rationalize, where there are no options, there are logical reasons for the status of said choice.

making the choice to work in high finance has an unavoidable entry, if you dont like that entry role, you cannot stay in high finance, thus a logical reason to stay.

making the choice to have a man, even a rich man, has multiple paths - when one is unsatisfactory, you can rationalize (make up illogical) reasons to stay or you can go and still find another.

 

[Hood Critic]

Do you feel the same way about unpaid internships? What about fraternity hazing?

No, I do not. Internships are vast and vary not only from industry but even company to company, hardly comparable to a widely known industry practice. Again, hazing is not isolated to all fraternities or greek organizations nor in the cases where it is, does it look the same - this is another apples to oranges comparison.

To me, they are all equally machoistic. Why is it that a woman who puts you through hell to prove your worth/love is insecure but when a company does it, it is respected and unchallenged?

I'm sorry but this is a weird comparison that seems more personal than anything else, maybe someone else is willing to touch this but I don't see the correlation to the topic and just see thread derailment on the horizon.

 

[GnauzBookOfRhymes]

These are definitely ppl who grew up.with money.