HL Climate Change Thread: Fare the well old world

No1

Retired.
Supporter
Joined
Apr 30, 2012
Messages
31,843
Reputation
5,322
Daps
72,164
Be so mad Bernie didn't win that you'd prefer to have the country in flames during the primes of you and your children, Bernie brehs
It's not about Bernie. Being on the left and being a liberal are not the same thing. Liberals like a Jonathan Chait like the existing economic order and just feel that it needs some tweaks. People on the left were the same ones who were disenchanted with Clinton, and who were critiquing Obama from the left. This Sanders/Clinton election has exposed a partnership of convenience that emerged in opposition to George W. Bush. The left want a social democracy, liberals are fine with the current system but "feel bad" about certain things. After the transgender fight is over, what will be left for liberals to hold onto? The economic cleavages and environmental issues will reemerge. Republicans are actually the ones keeping this coalition together because it's more "we don't fukk with Republicans" than we all like each other. And that's why American politics don't make any sense. In other nations there's a clear line of what party you align with based strictly on economics. This is why Trump vs. Hillary is great, you're starting to see people's true colors on economic issues and the parties are slowly shifting into what they should be. Eventually, you're going to have a right wing nationalist party, a centrist party, and a true left wing party.

@Brown_Pride that's why voting for Trump makes no sense if your a leftist. It allows for neoliberals to be the heroes again because they have large platforms. The distinction between leftists and liberals will disappear again when both are opposed to a right-wing presidency. The Obama presidency and a subsequent Clinton presidency would be much better for the left than a Trump presidency. Think about it, did the fight for minimum wage increases achieve more success under Bush or Obama? A centrist presidency gives you an example of "see this is what Democrats are," and a right-wing presidency does not because we all become a coalition of anti-Republicans and the more "contentious" left-wing issues are left in the mud.
 

wire28

Blade said what up
Supporter
Joined
May 1, 2012
Messages
57,929
Reputation
13,350
Daps
211,101
Reppin
#ByrdGang #TheColi
It's not about Bernie. Being on the left and being a liberal are not the same thing. Liberals like a Jonathan Chait like the existing economic order and just feel that it needs some tweaks. People on the left were the same ones who were disenchanted with Clinton, and who were critiquing Obama from the left. This Sanders/Clinton election has exposed a partnership of convenience that emerged in opposition to George W. Bush. The left want a social democracy, liberals are fine with the current system but "feel bad" about certain things. After the transgender fight is over, what will be left for liberals to hold onto? The economic cleavages and environmental issues will reemerge. Republicans are actually the ones keeping this coalition together because it's more "we don't fukk with Republicans" than we all like each other. And that's why American politics don't make any sense. In other nations there's a clear line of what party you align with based strictly on economics. This is why Trump vs. Hillary is great, you're starting to see people's true colors on economic issues and the parties are slowly shifting into what they should be. Eventually, you're going to have a right wing nationalist party, a centrist party, and a true left wing party.

@Brown_Pride that's why voting for Trump makes no sense if your a leftist. It allows for neoliberals to be the heroes again because they have large platforms. The distinction between leftists and liberals will disappear again when both are opposed to a right-wing presidency. The Obama presidency and a subsequent Clinton presidency would be much better for the left than a Trump presidency. Think about it, did the fight for minimum wage increases achieve more success under Bush or Obama? A centrist presidency gives you an example of "see this is what Democrats are," and a right-wing presidency does not because we all become a coalition of anti-Republicans and the more "contentious" left-wing issues are left in the mud.
Would agree and just add it'll be easier to enact progressive polices post Shillary than post Trump. That is if you are really about the ideology and just not the man. But I've said this before.
 

No1

Retired.
Supporter
Joined
Apr 30, 2012
Messages
31,843
Reputation
5,322
Daps
72,164
Would agree and just add it'll be easier to enact progressive polices post Shillary than post Trump. That is if you are really about the ideology and just not the man. But I've said this before.
I think people feel that Hillary will just extend the status quo and that people will eventually give up. That's really what it is. They see this as the progressive moment, and they don't know when this opportunity will come again. Republicans won't have a beatable guy like Trump for awhile. Look over the nation and progressives don't have any governorship and they are not the majority for Dems in Congress. This is not Hillary v. Obama who were very similar. This is the left vs. liberals and people need time to get over it. Rubbing their faces in it is not productive, when they're the young people most likely to vote in the general election. Those who didn't show up are not as likely to vote. We talk about Obama's youth support and ignore the fact that it was still a sub-50% turnout. HRC is infinitely less popular than Obama, that number will already be lower. Why the fukk would you exacerbate it?
 

SirReginald

The African Diaspora Will Be "ONE" (#PanAfricana)
Supporter
Joined
Aug 31, 2014
Messages
51,732
Reputation
90
Daps
79,394
Reppin
Pan Africanism
I think people feel that Hillary will just extend the status quo and that people will eventually give up. That's really what it is. They see this as the progressive moment, and they don't know when this opportunity will come again. Republicans won't have a beatable guy like Trump for awhile. Look over the nation and progressives don't have any governorship and they are not the majority for Dems in Congress. This is not Hillary v. Obama who were very similar. This is the left vs. liberals and people need time to get over it. Rubbing their faces in it is not productive, when they're the young people most likely to vote in the general election. Those who didn't show up are not as likely to vote. We talk about Obama's youth support and ignore the fact that it was still a sub-50% turnout. HRC is infinitely less popular than Obama, that number will already be lower. Why the fukk would you exacerbate it?
Do you think The Green Party could be that left party? I think they need to have more of their people run for congress though. So, who could be the leftest party?
 

No1

Retired.
Supporter
Joined
Apr 30, 2012
Messages
31,843
Reputation
5,322
Daps
72,164
Do you think The Green Party could be that left party? I think they need to have more of their people run for congress though. So, who could be the leftest party?
No, the Green Party sucks. They don't have credible candidates and every Green Party member you meet is some dude with 50 buttons on. Them nikkas look ridiculous.
 

SirReginald

The African Diaspora Will Be "ONE" (#PanAfricana)
Supporter
Joined
Aug 31, 2014
Messages
51,732
Reputation
90
Daps
79,394
Reppin
Pan Africanism
No, the Green Party sucks. They don't have credible candidates and every Green Party member you meet is some dude with 50 buttons on. Them nikkas look ridiculous.
So, in what ways can we start a legit 3rd party? I know the progressives are starting this thing called Brand New Congress.
 

No1

Retired.
Supporter
Joined
Apr 30, 2012
Messages
31,843
Reputation
5,322
Daps
72,164
So, in what ways can we start a legit 3rd party? I know the progressives are starting this thing called Brand New Congress.
Can't say that I've really thought about it. But it has to be a party that counts racial issues as a substantial part of its platform. No progressive party can emerge and be successful that does not have strong minority support.
 

wire28

Blade said what up
Supporter
Joined
May 1, 2012
Messages
57,929
Reputation
13,350
Daps
211,101
Reppin
#ByrdGang #TheColi
I think people feel that Hillary will just extend the status quo and that people will eventually give up. That's really what it is. They see this as the progressive moment, and they don't know when this opportunity will come again. Republicans won't have a beatable guy like Trump for awhile. Look over the nation and progressives don't have any governorship and they are not the majority for Dems in Congress. This is not Hillary v. Obama who were very similar. This is the left vs. liberals and people need time to get over it. Rubbing their faces in it is not productive, when they're the young people most likely to vote in the general election. Those who didn't show up are not as likely to vote. We talk about Obama's youth support and ignore the fact that it was still a sub-50% turnout. HRC is infinitely less popular than Obama, that number will already be lower. Why the fukk would you exacerbate it?
Bernie has given their movement a ton of momentum and a national stage. A loss now is meaningless as long as they are willing to continue to build on that. This isn't what they want but allowing Trump to get in would be doing a disservice to themselves and the ideals they want to enact. It's easier to move the dial from evil centrist than from evil right.

The opportunity will come again as soon as they decide for it by voting in progressives at all levels.
 

Brown_Pride

All Star
Joined
Jun 8, 2012
Messages
6,416
Reputation
786
Daps
7,887
Reppin
Atheist for Jesus
disenchanted with Clinton, and who were critiquing Obama from the left. This Sanders/Clinton election
It's not about Bernie. Being on the left and being a liberal are not the same thing. Liberals like a Jonathan Chait like the existing economic order and just feel that it needs some tweaks. People on the left were the same ones who were disenchanted with Clinton, and who were critiquing Obama from the left. This Sanders/Clinton election has exposed a partnership of convenience that emerged in opposition to George W. Bush. The left want a social democracy, liberals are fine with the current system but "feel bad" about certain things. After the transgender fight is over, what will be left for liberals to hold onto? The economic cleavages and environmental issues will reemerge. Republicans are actually the ones keeping this coalition together because it's more "we don't fukk with Republicans" than we all like each other. And that's why American politics don't make any sense. In other nations there's a clear line of what party you align with based strictly on economics. This is why Trump vs. Hillary is great, you're starting to see people's true colors on economic issues and the parties are slowly shifting into what they should be. Eventually, you're going to have a right wing nationalist party, a centrist party, and a true left wing party.

@Brown_Pride that's why voting for Trump makes no sense if your a leftist. It allows for neoliberals to be the heroes again because they have large platforms. The distinction between leftists and liberals will disappear again when both are opposed to a right-wing presidency. The Obama presidency and a subsequent Clinton presidency would be much better for the left than a Trump presidency. Think about it, did the fight for minimum wage increases achieve more success under Bush or Obama? A centrist presidency gives you an example of "see this is what Democrats are," and a right-wing presidency does not because we all become a coalition of anti-Republicans and the more "contentious" left-wing issues are left in the mud.
It still does little to address the overall issues with our political system. Voting for Hillary is what's best for the left right now in their pissing war with the right; the "my team vs your team" feud we've been conditioned to believe in. The truth is both teams are owned by the same person but we've been presented with a false dilemma that has quite literally blinded most people to the true travesty that is the current state of America politics. The problem isn't left or right it's the whole damn process. Something has to be done to pluck the tick that is corporatism off the neck of the American political process.

A vote for Trump is a vote for chaos, and hell i don't even have to vote for Trump, I can vote Green party and/or write in.

Let's also not forget THAT OUR VOTE MEANS dikk. We don't elect the president, never have. The powers that be put on this dog and pony show to present that illusion that your vote means something in a presidential election. It doesn't. We've seen on more than one occasion where the will of the establishment (the electoral college) determined our presidency in spite of the will of the people.

It's all smoke and mirrors and I'm just tired of pretending it's anything but. Trump getting into office is, in my eyes, a recognition of the absurdity that is the lie of the american political landscape.
 

No1

Retired.
Supporter
Joined
Apr 30, 2012
Messages
31,843
Reputation
5,322
Daps
72,164
It still does little to address the overall issues with our political system. Voting for Hillary is what's best for the left right now in their pissing war with the right; the "my team vs your team" feud we've been conditioned to believe in. The truth is both teams are owned by the same person but we've been presented with a false dilemma that has quite literally blinded most people to the true travesty that is the current state of America politics. The problem isn't left or right it's the whole damn process. Something has to be done to pluck the tick that is corporatism off the neck of the American political process.

A vote for Trump is a vote for chaos, and hell i don't even have to vote for Trump, I can vote Green party and/or write in.

Let's also not forget THAT OUR VOTE MEANS dikk. We don't elect the president, never have. The powers that be put on this dog and pony show to present that illusion that your vote means something in a presidential election. It doesn't. We've seen on more than one occasion where the will of the establishment (the electoral college) determined our presidency in spite of the will of the people.

It's all smoke and mirrors and I'm just tired of pretending it's anything but. Trump getting into office is, in my eyes, a recognition of the absurdity that is the lie of the american political landscape.
The left and Democrats are not the same group of people. Bernie Sanders is the left, HRC is not. Voting for Hillary is better for the left/progressives because it allows you to remain viable and pull the country further to the left. If Trump is president you have to restart again because it will be "fukk all that, let's get this dumbass out of here." It's how Obama was viewed as some sort of change when he really was a slightly to the left version of Bill. You create the throw those right-wing bums out atmosphere. Moreover, if votes did not matter then Trump would not be getting this nomination. Don't get me twisted, I am positive of voter fraud and manipulation but let's be real.

Also, yes, it is time to do away with the electoral college.
 

Brown_Pride

All Star
Joined
Jun 8, 2012
Messages
6,416
Reputation
786
Daps
7,887
Reppin
Atheist for Jesus
The left and Democrats are not the same group of people. Bernie Sanders is the left, HRC is not. Voting for Hillary is better for the left/progressives because it allows you to remain viable and pull the country further to the left. If Trump is president you have to restart again because it will be "fukk all that, let's get this dumbass out of here." It's how Obama was viewed as some sort of change when he really was a slightly to the left version of Bill. You create the throw those right-wing bums out atmosphere. Moreover, if votes did not matter then Trump would not be getting this nomination. Don't get me twisted, I am positive of voter fraud and manipulation but let's be real.

Also, yes, it is time to do away with the electoral college.
I'll say again, voting for Hillary is definitely better for the left, in the short term. We'll have power for a few years, then it'll shift as it has done over and over again. There's the rub right there. Power oscillates from left to right over and over again when in reality the POWER is the same. It's literally the same people in power now that were in power 20 years ago, 30 years ago. Nothing has changed. Yes there have been social changes and a gradual progression towards the left on social issues gay rights, race, etc and to be fair while these changes were both hard fought for and long overdue they failed to address the issue personally have with the system as it is, namely the influence of money and special interest groups in politics vs the lack of influence and lack of participation of voters.

You can't have a democracy where half the population doens't participate. There's a problem with our democracy at its root. I think/hope that if Trump is elected enough people will finally wake up to that fact.

Honestly what I hope for is this.
The democratic vote gets split between Hillary and independents (Bernie as a write in or the Green Party)
Trump wins the popular election
Hillary get's elected by the electoral college

In this scenario
Trump supporters will be pissed because the popular vote is going to get railroaded
Hillary supporter will see they won, but on a crooked ass results
Independents will really start to see that their vote is being abused

Everyone will get to see the bullshyt that is the presidential election.

I'll say again, the heart of our democracy is based on a scam created to placate the masses into believing they really have a choice.
 

Trajan

Veteran
Joined
May 23, 2012
Messages
18,821
Reputation
5,305
Daps
82,226
Reppin
Frankincense and Myrrh
Fake it till you make it. He literally goes to every convention and says exactly what they want to hear. No logic no debate. Just

*looks at agenda*
"Oh, right wing christian conservatives at the rally today":ehh:
*goes to podium*
"And I will ban abortion nationwide and force all school books to say the earth is 5000 years old!!":troll:


that's like when he stood in front of AIPAC and was like "nobody loves israel more than me!" "nobody has done more for israel than i have!" "my son-in-law is jewish...and he probably has the greatest nose i've ever seen!"

:russ:



GOAT :wow:
 
Top