How did Kendrick Lamar become considered 'lyrical'?

[Jack Don the G]

The topic is not cliche but it has been done before to some degree (i.e. like that Coup song I just posted). The way Kendrick handled it on that song IS cliche to an extent as far as the portrayal of the girl's thought process and even the limited extent he broke down her situation. He didn't go deep into it... It was a good verse but not a particularly insightful one.

First of, that Coup song is super dope.

While I agree that they are similar in the sense of narrative structure. But the over all theme of the songs are quite different.

As I have said earlier in this thread her thought process is limited since she have the attitude of young teenage prostitute with no future. I think Kendrick did a good job showing the hopelessness combined with the anger.
He didnt have to deeper into the prostitutes life and dilemmas (breaking down her situation). He had already done that with Kiecha's song. This verse was just setting up Kendricks last verse. Something to bounce off.

The verse is not "really" about her. The first and second verse are personifications of all the internal struggle Kendrick is having trying to do the "right" thing coming out of Compton. Which he expands on TPAB.

The song also wraps up the GKMC album in a beautiful way, bringing up the different sides.

If you still think the girls thought process is cliche? Could you expand in which ways he could have gone deeper without crossing over into what he already had done in Kiecha's song and compromising the set up for the third verse.

 

[FruitOfTheVale]

First of, that Coup song is super dope.

While I agree that they are similar in the sense of narrative structure. But the over all theme of the songs are quite different.

As I have said earlier in this thread her thought process is limited since she have the attitude of young teenage prostitute with no future. I think Kendrick did a good job showing the hopelessness combined with the anger.
He didnt have to deeper into the prostitutes life and dilemmas (breaking down her situation). He had already done that with Kiecha's song. This verse was just setting up Kendricks last verse. Something to bounce off.

The verse is not "really" about her. The first and second verse are personifications of all the internal struggle Kendrick is having trying to do the "right" thing coming out of Compton. Which he expands on TPAB.

The song also wraps up the GKMC album in a beautiful way, bringing up the different sides.

If you still think the girls thought process is cliche? Could you expand in which ways he could have gone deeper without crossing over into what he already had done in Kiecha's song and compromising the set up for the third verse.

I'll sideline this convo for a moment to talk about Keisha's Song.

The verses (particularly the first two) are written from his somewhat distant perspective of seeing a girl he knows engaging in prostitution, a viewpoint made clear by the last four lines of each verse:

"A block away from Leuters Park, I seen an El Camino parked
and in her heart she hate it there, but in her mind she made it where
nothing really matters so she hit the backseat"...

The first two verses describe the apathy of the community to her struggle and the third verse about her self-hate and her own family's apathy. The song in essence describes "how" a 17 year old girl can slip into prostitution in her own community.

On the flipside though, Kendrick is detached from the actual situation that she's in. He's not talking about the negative energy and impact her situation is having on the people around her (in addition to herself) because it's not in HIS house and it's not HIS sister or mother. The song never really moves past "description" and at no point really dives into "insight".

"Me And Jesus The Pimp" is so powerful because you can see the real pain Jesus the pimp inflicted on his bottom bytch and the people around her (namely her son). It cuts directly into the meat of the cycle that's being perpetuated.

In that sense, I don't find Kendrick's writing so much "insightful" as it is effective at making issues that are largely unsympathetic to America at large accessible and more sympathetic.

 

[Jack Don the G]

I'll sideline this convo for a moment to talk about Keisha's Song.

The verses (particularly the first two) are written from his somewhat distant perspective of seeing a girl he knows engaging in prostitution, a viewpoint made clear by the last four lines of each verse:

"A block away from Leuters Park, I seen an El Camino parked
and in her heart she hate it there, but in her mind she made it where
nothing really matters so she hit the backseat"...

The first two verses describe the apathy of the community to her struggle and the third verse about her self-hate and her own family's apathy. The song in essence describes "how" a 17 year old girl can slip into prostitution in her own community.

On the flipside though, Kendrick is detached from the actual situation that she's in. He's not talking about the negative energy and impact her situation is having on the people around her (in addition to herself) because it's not in HIS house and it's not HIS sister or mother. The song never really moves past "description" and at no point really dives into "insight".

"Me And Jesus The Pimp" is so powerful because you can see the real pain Jesus the pimp inflicted on his bottom bytch and the people around her (namely her son). It cuts directly into the meat of the cycle that's being perpetuated.

In that sense, I don't find Kendrick's writing so much "insightful" as it is effective at making issues that are largely unsympathetic to America at large accessible and more sympathetic.

I see what you are saying but I don't buy that argument fully.

You can for example write a book in very different ways. You can write in first person and reader only get to experience the protagonist. In other books you can also get to experience the "inside" of the people around him or there is a depersonalized narrator. In movies you rarely get to experience the "inside" of characters.

But I rarely feel different levels of engagement to the characters depending on the style of narration. Its how well you tell the story.

I do agree that the Me and Jesus The Pimp is some what more engaging, but I just heard it for the first time while I heard Keishas song for the first time a long time ago, so cant really judge fairly.



Sure the first person narrative is probably helping but we have to remember that Me and Jesus also is told in a movie type of way, by playing up scenes making it a story with a defined timeline with a red line. I also think that has do with it being a 7 minute story told in the perspective of the life of a child.

Where in Keishas song you dont have that. Its more of popping in and out of her inner feelings and external life events with out a red line bindning them together.

But even with this in mind I think Kendrick makes you invested in the "story".

I still get chills when he raps:


"and you can blame it on her mother
For letting her boyfriend slide candy under her cover
Ten months before she was ten he moved in and that's when he touched her"

But narrative skills aside.

What makes you feel that hes not "insightful". Insightful in the sense of seeing inside of a person, or in the sense that you gain new knowledge?

Kendrick also write well in a first person narrative if thats what you mean. Sing about me, I hate you, How much a dollar cost are good examples.

I would say songs like Sing about me and How much a dollar cost is more "insightful" in the sense that you see different sides of a story and can gain a new perspective of things from it.

While Me and Jesus the pimp is a engaging story that is very personal. It dont bring anything new to the table. Its a revenge story, only time it tries to show "the otherside" is when hes talking about the letters that made an impact on him.
But he quickly within two, three lines come to the conclusion that its not a good life to live and go back to wanting to kill Jesus. I don't take away anything "new"/"insightful" from that story.

Kendrick on the other hand go deep into the different side of the issues in the songs. And he dont tell the audience what to think. He just shows it.
In Me and Jesus the protagonist make the choice quickly without dwelling much on it and proceed to tell the audience "how it is".

Im not trying to take anything away from Me and Jesus. Cus its a great, great storytelling track. Its just that I dont see the insight that you claim Kendrick lack.

But it could just be that I misinterpret your use of insight, when you really are talking about the inner narrative. But if thats the case I think his other songs that I mentioned show that he is capable of that too.

Anyway, you make good cases and dont use flawed logic to elevate your point.

This is how I wish the majority of the discussion on this forum would be. Even if two persons have a different view on things, they can have a good debate on why they think so.

 

[FruitOfTheVale]

I see what you are saying but I don't buy that argument fully.

You can for example write a book in very different ways. You can write in first person and reader only get to experience the protagonist. In other books you can also get to experience the "inside" of the people around him or there is a depersonalized narrator. In movies you rarely get to experience the "inside" of characters.

But I rarely feel different levels of engagement to the characters depending on the style of narration. Its how well you tell the story.

To be clear, my comment did not really pertain to the narrative device Kendrick used, it's more that the entire story is literally told from an outside POV. He's commenting on the ugliness of the surface of the situation from an onlooker's perspective, he never really addresses her own thoughts and actions. He mentions her motivations in the sense that she needs to provide for herself but he never really questions who she is (other than being a prostitute) or what she's even living for. Moreover, he clearly "knows" her story but at what point do you as the concerned onlooker insert yourself into the situation? He's commenting about community apathy without addressing his own apathy. IMO the song comes across as using her story as a platform to talk about prostitution, it does not feel personal to the character of "Keisha".

I do agree that the Me and Jesus The Pimp is some what more engaging, but I just heard it for the first time while I heard Keishas song for the first time a long time ago, so cant really judge fairly.

Sure the first person narrative is probably helping but we have to remember that Me and Jesus also is told in a movie type of way, by playing up scenes making it a story with a defined timeline with a red line. I also think that has do with it being a 7 minute story told in the perspective of the life of a child.

Where in Keishas song you dont have that. Its more of popping in and out of her inner feelings and external life events with out a red line bindning them together.

But even with this in mind I think Kendrick makes you invested in the "story".

I'll get back to this later in my response.

I still get chills when he raps:

"and you can blame it on her mother
For letting her boyfriend slide candy under her cover
Ten months before she was ten he moved in and that's when he touched her"

But narrative skills aside.

What makes you feel that hes not "insightful". Insightful in the sense of seeing inside of a person, or in the sense that you gain new knowledge?

Kendrick also write well in a first person narrative if thats what you mean. Sing about me, I hate you, How much a dollar cost are good examples.

I would say songs like Sing about me and How much a dollar cost is more "insightful" in the sense that you see different sides of a story and can gain a new perspective of things from it.

​

It's not whether he uses a first person or third person narrative, it's whether he's able to offer HIS OWN commentary on a story that doesn't belong to him in any real sense. "Keisha's Song" is essentially a recap of her story and little more than that. What does Kendrick even consider to be the consequence of her community allowing her to ho herself out? He names who he thinks is at fault - he names the mother who doesn't defend her daughter from her predatory BFs and the officer who doesn't intervene (and takes advantage of her) - but he doesn't question whether Keisha actually WANTED anyone to intervene in her situation either. What is the cost of her being a prostitute on herself and others? What did she lose from that? Did she "gain" something from it (like say, a 'concerned' pimp father figure)? Was she simply running away from a fukked up home? Any insight into her story by necessity either comes from her or the people who are affected by her choices. Kendrick as the distant onlooker character in her story clearly is not directly affected by her actions other than either being sympathetic or judgmental.

While Me and Jesus the pimp is a engaging story that is very personal. It dont bring anything new to the table. Its a revenge story, only time it tries to show "the otherside" is when hes talking about the letters that made an impact on him.
But he quickly within two, three lines come to the conclusion that its not a good life to live and go back to wanting to kill Jesus. I don't take away anything "new"/"insightful" from that story.

Kendrick on the other hand go deep into the different side of the issues in the songs. And he dont tell the audience what to think. He just shows it.
In Me and Jesus the protagonist make the choice quickly without dwelling much on it and proceed to tell the audience "how it is".

Im not trying to take anything away from Me and Jesus. Cus its a great, great storytelling track. Its just that I dont see the insight that you claim Kendrick lack.

Me And Jesus is about a trick baby who is conditioned from an early age to see pimping and prostitution as normal. After being traumatized by his mother's death at the hands of her pimp (his father), his entire life course is altered and he becomes an angry young man with unresolved baggage. He emulates his father and even looks up to him via the letters his father sends him from prison: he's his father after all. When it comes time for him to raise his own son and have his own family though, he realizes that he's perpetuating the same shyt that happened to him. He hasn't been plotting revenge his entire life, he came to realize that he was sabotaging himself and needed to redirect his anger at the source of his misery (his father).

His mother's role is first and foremost as a mother. The contradiction between how he worshipped his mother and how he abuses his wife/girlfriend years later after years of being molded by trauma and family dysfunction which is in turn doing the same thing to his own son... THAT'S the insight.

But it could just be that I misinterpret your use of insight, when you really are talking about the inner narrative. But if thats the case I think his other songs that I mentioned show that he is capable of that too.

Anyway, you make good cases and dont use flawed logic to elevate your point.

This is how I wish the majority of the discussion on this forum would be. Even if two persons have a different view on things, they can have a good debate on why they think so.

I agree, a lot of the back and forth on this forum is dumb. This is a good discussion

 

[HoldThisL]

I became a K Dot fan after hearing opposites attract

 

[loyola llothta]

its cause rap fans thing jazzy productions, vaguely progressive lyrics about capitalism and being against the government means you're "educated"...he's wrapping generic smart-nikka lines up in a package that people who want to appear educate cling to.

Some of my most successful and educated friends listen to some of the most vapid bullshyt...not because they're stupid...but because they know its entertainment. This untitled EP Kendrick dropped was nice...but he doesn't impress people who are hard to impress because they see through it.

Its the same way J Cole gets a pass for some how being "conscious"...shyts mind-blowing ...i'd say Jay Z and Gucci are more "conscious" than either of those two will ever be...but hey, if you rap about "hey young girl, respect your self...and the government put drugs in the hood" then you're all good with all that low effort.

fuk that were going to be alright




....while we get gundown with no resolution, why do you think we call him K.c00n-tay for

 

[hex]

its cause rap fans thing jazzy productions, vaguely progressive lyrics about capitalism and being against the government means you're "educated"...he's wrapping generic smart-nikka lines up in a package that people who want to appear educate cling to.

Some of my most successful and educated friends listen to some of the most vapid bullshyt...not because they're stupid...but because they know its entertainment. This untitled EP Kendrick dropped was nice...but he doesn't impress people who are hard to impress because they see through it.

Its the same way J Cole gets a pass for some how being "conscious"...shyts mind-blowing ...i'd say Jay Z and Gucci are more "conscious" than either of those two will ever be...but hey, if you rap about "hey young girl, respect your self...and the government put drugs in the hood" then you're all good with all that low effort.

I'm at you dissecting the fukk out of Kendrick and his lyrics when you stan a guy that don't even write his own shyt.

Do you fools that Dapped this bum know this is Napoleon?

What the fukk is going on, on this board?

Fred.

 

[Jack Don the G]

To be clear, my comment did not really pertain to the narrative device Kendrick used, it's more that the entire story is literally told from an outside POV. He's commenting on the ugliness of the surface of the situation from an onlooker's perspective, he never really addresses her own thoughts and actions. He mentions her motivations in the sense that she needs to provide for herself but he never really questions who she is (other than being a prostitute) or what she's even living for. Moreover, he clearly "knows" her story but at what point do you as the concerned onlooker insert yourself into the situation? He's commenting about community apathy without addressing his own apathy. IMO the song comes across as using her story as a platform to talk about prostitution, it does not feel personal to the character of "Keisha".



I'll get back to this later in my response.

​

It's not whether he uses a first person or third person narrative, it's whether he's able to offer HIS OWN commentary on a story that doesn't belong to him in any real sense. "Keisha's Song" is essentially a recap of her story and little more than that. What does Kendrick even consider to be the consequence of her community allowing her to ho herself out? He names who he thinks is at fault - he names the mother who doesn't defend her daughter from her predatory BFs and the officer who doesn't intervene (and takes advantage of her) - but he doesn't question whether Keisha actually WANTED anyone to intervene in her situation either. What is the cost of her being a prostitute on herself and others? What did she lose from that? Did she "gain" something from it (like say, a 'concerned' pimp father figure)? Was she simply running away from a fukked up home? Any insight into her story by necessity either comes from her or the people who are affected by her choices. Kendrick as the distant onlooker character in her story clearly is not directly affected by her actions other than either being sympathetic or judgmental.



Me And Jesus is about a trick baby who is conditioned from an early age to see pimping and prostitution as normal. After being traumatized by his mother's death at the hands of her pimp (his father), his entire life course is altered and he becomes an angry young man with unresolved baggage. He emulates his father and even looks up to him via the letters his father sends him from prison: he's his father after all. When it comes time for him to raise his own son and have his own family though, he realizes that he's perpetuating the same shyt that happened to him. He hasn't been plotting revenge his entire life, he came to realize that he was sabotaging himself and needed to redirect his anger at the source of his misery (his father).

His mother's role is first and foremost as a mother. The contradiction between how he worshipped his mother and how he abuses his wife/girlfriend years later after years of being molded by trauma and family dysfunction which is in turn doing the same thing to his own son... THAT'S the insight.



I agree, a lot of the back and forth on this forum is dumb. This is a good discussion

You break down the songs really well.

But I dont know if its Kendricks task to give us the answer to whats the consequence of prostitution. He points out the flaws in the attitude inside and outside of the ghetto. Where Boots points out the flaws and attitudes inside of the family.

Even if the Jesus and Keisha songs is about prostitution, they portray two different live storys of how prostitution effect lives. One is about how it effect the kid of a prostitute and his family situation and other one handles on why a teenage girl would go into prostitution. It tries to give the listener an insight into what the rest of society call "trash".

The same thing you claim Kendrick is neglecting can be said about the Boots verses. I don't see a problem with Boots not focusing on why the mother happen to be a prostitute or how she feels and how her working day looks like.

They don't have to show every single aspect of the community.

Keisha's song could never tell the story it did if Kendrick were to include all the aspects you think he should have adressed. I dont see the reason to go into what the cost/gain or if she wanted someone to intervene. Its pretty clear Keisha don't enjoy her occupation, she rush through clients (a new one every verse, portraying her work very well I would say). Kendrick mentions she dont got a father but a pimp but he dont have to go into their relationship, it would steer away from the main point of the story. I dont see the point of going into how her being a prostitute effects her surrounding since it also would take us away from us getting to feel the numbness and coldness of Keishas working day.

I think we both agree that they have different messages so its unfair to point out that the other song didnt tell the other part of the story.

 

[HARLEM AL]

The Kendrick backlash on here is the most bizarre, forced thing I've ever seen

I don't get it either. shyt is extra..

 

[The_Third_Man]

hiphop heads just don't like popular new school rappers.

 

[Theodoresolderbreh]

I seriously don't understand the hate this guy gets in a world where fatty wap and future even have record deals let alone sell records. And all they do is just mumble and spit into microphones for two minutes record it and sell it... Those are guys to hate on but you decided to shyt on Kendrick?

 

[CrimsonTider]

I seriously don't understand the hate this guy gets in a world where fatty wap and future even have record deals let alone sell records. And all they do is just mumble and spit into microphones for two minutes record it and sell it... Those are guys to hate on but you decided to shyt on Kendrick?

Fetty and Future are better than Kendrick

 

[Theodoresolderbreh]

Fetty and Future are better than Kendrick

 

[CrimsonTider]

I don't understand. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean they are bad

I like Kendrick but I don't have the desire to replay his music or ride out to it

 

[Theodoresolderbreh]

I don't understand. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean they are bad

I like Kendrick but I don't have the desire to replay his music or ride out to it

they are incoherent so I can't even listen to what they trying to say. Mumbling over hard beats don't make great music. Kendrick makes better music and is the better rapper.