HOW in the hell was Pac better than Nas at rapping?

inndaskKy

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But this is why it's stupid, let's say Nas rapped on that higher level 75% of the time. And Pac only did it 2% of the time. By that criteria, you would be able to show 4 bars from PAC where he rapped on that higher level - but it would be incredibly misleading to say that makes him and Nas equal.

That's why this is something any hip hop fan should just know. To truly make the poi t you want to you'd have to analyze every bar from both of them. That would be silly to attempt (I can see IR doing it though) but, at the end of the day, we've all already done it through extensive listening to both.

You are right that to a certain point it is an incomplete method. However, as you say, in real life this is something people should do for themselves. Now, what happens when we both do this in real life and we come to different conclusions as we seem to have done now? The only way to resolve it is to show some examples where you feel Nas reached some higher level of rhyming than Pac.
Also, the thing is that people don't usually claim that Pac was lyrical less consistently. They claim he just didn't have the same rhyming ability at all, meaning he wasn't able to rhyme in the way Nas did on Illmatic for example. Now this I'm saying can be shown to be wrong. And for that same reason it is a complete exaggeration to say that Nas is that much more lyrical than Pac. I have said this many times: for every line on Illmatic there is a Pac line, in terms of rhyming, that showcases the same rhyming ability. Now if Illmatic is one of the best lyrical albums of all times, then how can people call someone who can match any line on Illmatic weak lyrically?

If anything, it only shows Pac was less one-dimensional with the way he wrote his songs and used different rhyming styles suited to the purpose of his song. That is a strength, not a weakness.
 

inndaskKy

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Also, the fact that the amounts of rhyming differs per bar means that you can't say Nas>Pac lyrically overall, but you have to always compare different songs to each other. But it also means you must admit that there are also Pac songs that are more lyrical than many Nas songs.
That's why it is such an exaggeration to say Nas is more lyrical than Pac. Whereas I can safely say that every AZ song ever is more lyrical than any Bizarre song ever, which is why AZ is absolutely more lyrical than Bizarre.
 

samtalksradio

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And Nas is elevated in sheep think and being Jay's antagonist

Him being Jay's rival keeps his name in people's mouths

Now when it comes to rap there are only 2 GOATS in this shyt

Pac and Jay...period

Not only because they transcend rap but because they are complete artists
Delivery, voice, flow, subject matter, influence, lyrics...they both have the greatest command over the people when behind the mic

Nas just doesnt cut it...it is what it is..

He's not a GOAT

Sure u can call him a legend
But Pac and Jay are GOATS

It is what it is..

Pac and Jay are the most versatile artists in this shyt and that is not only because of their talent..but also because they successfully created characters to entertain/relate to the masses
And tho you could say those 2 were on opposite sides of the spectrum they understood the mantra of "Its only entertainment" which gave them their ability to be so diverse and versatile

Pac and Jay are the only GOATS in this shyt

Anyone else mentioned is a joke..period

It is what it is :yeshrug:
Speaking of Jay, he also is better then 22pac. all this 22pac dikkriding proves that good marketing, in dying can delude people into thinking someone is better then they actually are (word to Biggie nikka only got two albums) no matter, Nas is better, he was when 22pac was alive in still is.
 

mobbinfms

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because this is a hip hop forum. people keep asserting that naS is this lyrical beacon. So on a hip hop forum where we discuss this stuff I post threads to discuss it, but it seems naS fans just want to say stuff and not back it up. Like the thread I posted with one Lupe and one Twista track, two different types of lyricism... that naS cannot match. And of course no one even tried.

So on this hip hop forum where people talk about hip hop all day, and proclaim naS as this lyrical icon, cannot come up with a single example to show he's lyrically on the level of a Lupe or Twista. And the reason I used those two is to show that on the spectrum of lyricism, naS & Pac are somewhere in the middle with BIG. Cats like Lu, Jay, Common, 3 Stacks are at the top. I think its worth the debate.

I'm not saying its not worth a debate and this is definitely the place to have it. What I question is the relentlessness and singular focus you have regarding Nas and particularly his earlier work.

Showing two verses (relatively obscure ones at that) that are lyrical, even if we agree with your argument, doesn't take away from Nas' accomplishments throughout his career. And we always point to Illmatic as an example of supreme lyricism. The fact that you don't agree doesn't mean that we've ceded the conventional wisdom about Illmatic.
 

Danie84

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It's :mindblown: there is no video footage of Pac and Nas meeting up that night of the MTV Awards, with a whole crew behind them :wow:
 

mobbinfms

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nah, this is false. Your typical naS track and typical Pac track will show roughly the same level of lyricism. the naS track will have more big words that he doesnt know how to use or the meaning to, the Pac track will have more predictable rhymes at the end of the bars.

I disagree - 2pac does not have an album where he rhymed with the level of technical complexity of Illmatic. 4 bars, a verse, or even a song don't matter. Point me to an album with that level of sustained rhyming from Pac.

Don't forget also that the conventional wisdom about Pac has always been that his lyrics weren't his strong suit. You guys have to rebut that presumption.
 

mobbinfms

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You are right that to a certain point it is an incomplete method. However, as you say, in real life this is something people should do for themselves. Now, what happens when we both do this in real life and we come to different conclusions as we seem to have done now? The only way to resolve it is to show some examples where you feel Nas reached some higher level of rhyming than Pac.
Also, the thing is that people don't usually claim that Pac was lyrical less consistently. They claim he just didn't have the same rhyming ability at all, meaning he wasn't able to rhyme in the way Nas did on Illmatic for example. Now this I'm saying can be shown to be wrong. And for that same reason it is a complete exaggeration to say that Nas is that much more lyrical than Pac. I have said this many times: for every line on Illmatic there is a Pac line, in terms of rhyming, that showcases the same rhyming ability. Now if Illmatic is one of the best lyrical albums of all times, then how can people call someone who can match any line on Illmatic weak lyrically?

If anything, it only shows Pac was less one-dimensional with the way he wrote his songs and used different rhyming styles suited to the purpose of his song. That is a strength, not a weakness.

The fact that we've reached different conclusions makes me think that you aren't being objective (like IR isn't objective about Nas' earlier work). Remember the conventional wisdom about Pac is that he wasn't lyrical.

Line for line is silly. Post the album where Pac is rhyming like Nas on Illmatic or IWW. Nothing else matters.
 

mobbinfms

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Also, the fact that the amounts of rhyming differs per bar means that you can't say Nas>Pac lyrically overall, but you have to always compare different songs to each other. But it also means you must admit that there are also Pac songs that are more lyrical than many Nas songs.
That's why it is such an exaggeration to say Nas is more lyrical than Pac. Whereas I can safely say that every AZ song ever is more lyrical than any Bizarre song ever, which is why AZ is absolutely more lyrical than Bizarre.

I'm not following what you're saying here. And of course Nas vs Pac is a lot closer than AZ and Bizzare.
 
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:rudy: Terrible analogy.Reggie miller was a one dimensional shooter while jordan was a complete player

Nas is more jordan that pac is.Wtf are you even talkin about go sit your dumb ass down somewhere wit this retarded comparison


Nas is more "And1"


He's coming with the 360's, 720's, and crazy slick handles.


Pac was more Jordan.

Straight to the point and basic, but supremely effective.


Jordan couldn't handle the rock like Skip To My Lou or shoot like Stephon Curry....Couldn't pass like Jason Williams("White Chocolate")


If you watch MJ, his game was pretty simple.He had a particular skill set.Mainly consisting of a mid range J/ fade away.It's his passion and willingness to succeed that made him tower above everyone else.


To me, all these extra lyrical nikkaz come a dime a dozen.It's an overabundance of cats like that.That shyt is Checkers, not Chess

If I went out searching, I bet I'd find 10,000 Nasir's before I found another Tupac
 

intilectual recipricol

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I disagree - 2pac does not have an album where he rhymed with the level of technical complexity of Illmatic. 4 bars, a verse, or even a song don't matter. Point me to an album with that level of sustained rhyming from Pac.

Don't forget also that the conventional wisdom about Pac has always been that his lyrics weren't his strong suit. You guys have to rebut that presumption.

EVERY Pac album is lyrically better than Illmatic, which is lyrically naS' worst album. I already broke that album down and found NOTHING lyrically spectacular about it at all using the criteria I posted in that other post. Furthermore, if youre using Illmatic as an example of lyricism then Waka Flocka is also a supreme lyricist. THERE IS NO TECHNICAL COMPLEXITY IN NAS' RHYMES. NONE. I refuse to listen to that god awful album again to pull my examples.

I mean damn, at least do naS the favor and use his better works. Why would you think a kid fresh from dropping out of 7th grade writes better than the same person AFTER more practice writing?
 

Alexander Wiggin

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so much wrong in this post I cant even address it all.

naS has ZERO punchlines. much like Pac.
What phrases did naS invent? He aint come up with nothin as big as MC Hammer's "its all good"
Has naS rapped with the greatest rappers ever? I havent heard the tracks.
Every rapper with more than 1 album has written various songs.
here we go with the 'lyrical' stuff again... how?

:bryan: @ naS having more "mystique" than Pac... nicca has ZERO mistique, unlike Pac once he started fanticizing about his own Death somewhere between S4MN and Thuglife Vol 1

its like you set out to be wrong about everything.


no punchline and no unheard slang huh ?

street's disciple
Nas is like the Afrocentric Asian, half-man, half-amazin
suede timb on my feet makes my cypher complete
blood of a slave, heart of a king
I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death
somehow the rap game reminds me of crack game
there's one life one love, so there can only be one king
a thug changes, and love changes, and best friends become strangers
life is parallel to hell
illmatic
stillmatic
began like a violin, end like leviathan
I wear chains that excite the feds
Life’s a bytch, but God forbid the bytch divorce me
Ether
*insert your rapper* murdered you on your own shyt
Top five, I'm the one, two, three, four and the fifth man
You the fifth niqqa in the Beatles, you the tenth niqqa in the Wu-Tang

and I can go on and on

and the greatest rappers ? let me see...

Rakim, Slick Rick, Busta, Big Pun, G Rap, Rae & Ghost, Inspectah & Meth, Prodigy, Jigga, DMX, Scarface, Snoop, KRS, Az & Foxy, Lil Kim, Tragedy, Beastie Boys, RUN DMC, Canibus, Ludacris, Missy, Large Pro, Q Tip, Lauryn and on and on (they all belong in a top 20 at least)
 

mobbinfms

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EVERY Pac album is lyrically better than Illmatic, which is lyrically naS' worst album. I already broke that album down and found NOTHING lyrically spectacular about it at all using the criteria I posted in that other post. Furthermore, if youre using Illmatic as an example of lyricism then Waka Flocka is also a supreme lyricist. THERE IS NO TECHNICAL COMPLEXITY IN NAS' RHYMES. NONE. I refuse to listen to that god awful album again to pull my examples.

I mean damn, at least do naS the favor and use his better works. Why would you think a kid fresh from dropping out of 7th grade writes better than the same person AFTER more practice writing?

I disagree about Illmatic and I disagree that your broke down the album showing it to not be lyrical. I posted examples of the schennanigans you were pulling in your own thread proving your lack of objectivity and general head in the sandedness.

Don't ever point to that thread again as an example of Illmatic being wack because that thread means nothing to me.
 

mobbinfms

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Nas is more "And1"


He's coming with the 360's, 720's, and crazy slick handles.


Pac was more Jordan.

Straight to the point and basic, but supremely effective.


Jordan couldn't handle the rock like Skip To My Lou or shoot like Stephon Curry....Couldn't pass like Jason Williams("White Chocolate")


If you watch MJ, his game was pretty simple.He had a particular skill set.Mainly consisting of a mid range J/ fade away.It's his passion and willingness to succeed that made him tower above everyone else.


To me, all these extra lyrical nikkaz come a dime a dozen.It's an overabundance of cats like that.That shyt is Checkers, not Chess

If I went out searching, I bet I'd find 10,000 Nasir's before I found another Tupac

Post links to the 10,000 Illmatics made by these 10,000 Nas' out there :ufdup:
 

intilectual recipricol

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I disagree about Illmatic and I disagree that your broke down the album showing it to not be lyrical. I posted examples of the schennanigans you were pulling in your own thread proving your lack of objectivity and general head in the sandedness.

Don't ever point to that thread again as an example of Illmatic being wack because that thread means nothing to me.

You didnt show anything. I showed that the album is a bunch of incoherent ramblings that have no connection to each other with average 'flow'

"whether or not I get airplay I drink henny in the stairway" is NOT lyricism, I dont know how anyone could EVER confuse it for lyricism. And if you think thats different from anything Pac said or could say it just shows you dont have a grasp on lyricism.
 

Alexander Wiggin

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You didnt show anything. I showed that the album is a bunch of incoherent ramblings that have no connection to each other with average 'flow'

"whether or not I get airplay I drink henny in the stairway" is NOT lyricism, I dont know how anyone could EVER confuse it for lyricism. And if you think thats different from anything Pac said or could say it just shows you dont have a grasp on lyricism.

you're aware that you can be a lyricist and make a songs using lyricism and still have part of the songs that are not lyricism but narrative parts, or bragadaccio parts, or punchlines, which is the case with your quote ? You can't make a song with 100 lyricism rhymes out of a hundred, that's called balance of the song. Nas is just being descriptive here and set an atmosphere for the listener to dive into it. How can't you just understand a basic thing like that :mindblown:
 
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