I played in both eras, I played against both of them. Jordan is the #GOAT - Ray Allen

[Professor Emeritus]

So is your argument going to be that Russell's Celtics, Wilt's Lakers, Bird's Celtics, Kareem and Magic's Lakers, and Jordan's Bulls didn't have talent at the level of the 2012 Heat or the 2016 Cavs? That LeBron was the one who had lineups vastly superior to his competition, and Russell/Wilt/Bird/Kareem/Magic/Jordan never did?

Did you really try and discount the 2012 and 2013 world champion Miami Heat roster by not including Wade and Bosh?

I was just pointing out that it's hard to call something a "superteam" when all those players I listed were starters on the 2012 Heat. And Bosh was hurt when they played Boston, he didn't start any of the games and only scored 35 points in the entire series as he didn't come back from a strained stomach muscle until Game 5.

Chalmers
Wade
Haslem/Battier
Turiaf/Pittman

Those are the starting lineups LeBron's Heat ended up defeating the Pacers with


Chalmers
Wade
Battier
Haslem/Turiaf/Joel Anthony

Those are the starting lineups LeBron's Heat ended up defeating the Celtics with


Chalmers
Wade
Battier
Haslem/Bosh

Those are the starting lineups they beat the Thunder with


Irving
JR Smith
Love/35yo RJ
Tristan

Those are the starting lineups LeBron's Cavs beat the Warriors with

No, JR and TT aren't "trash" but if the two of them along with 35yo RJ are 60% of your starting lineup in an NBA Finals game, you sure as hell don't have a "super team" by any meaningful definition of the word.

Additionally are you trying to say that JR and TT were trash in 2016? The Cavs had a better team than the Warriors talent wise that year and they won the finals big surprise.

You just trolling now, can't actually be that dumb.

Steph > Kyrie
Klay > JR
Barnes > 35yo RJ
Draymond > Love or TT
Livingston/Barbosa/Bogut/Ezeli > Shump/Delly/Mosgov/Frye
Kerr > Lue

The ONLY talent advantage the Cavs had was LeBron over Iggy.

Warriors won 73 games, Steph was the unanimous MVP, Kerr was COY, Iggy was reigning Finals MVP, Steph/Draymond/Klay were all on the All-NBA team while NO ONE ON THE CAVS GOT A SINGLE VOTE FOR ALL-NBA except for LeBron, and now you calling the Cavs a "superteam" that was more talented than the Warriors.

The #3 scorer in the Finals for the Cavs was J.R. averaging 10.6ppg on 40% shooting. On a "super team."

You wilding.

 

[Sccit]

You.

THATS WHY YOUR NAME MEANS DICC IN HEBREW, U BIITCH

 

[Zyne]

THATS WHY YOUR NAME MEANS DICC IN HEBREW, U BIITCH

Nobody give a fukk about hebrew and your name means fakkit in English.

 

[Sccit]

Nobody give a fukk about hebrew and your name means fakkit in English.

HEBREW CAME BEFORE ENGLISH, GAYBOY

LOL @ LYIN TO YASELF N PRETENDIN LIKE NO ONE CARES BOUT THE LANGUAGE OF THE ORIGINAL SCRIPTURES CUZ UR NAME MEAN DICC IN THAT LANGUAGE

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

HEBREW CAME BEFORE ENGLISH, GAYBOY

LOL @ LYIN TO YASELF N PRETENDIN LIKE NO ONE CARES BOUT THE LANGUAGE OF THE ORIGINAL SCRIPTURES CUZ UR NAME MEAN DICC IN THAT LANGUAGE

Why do you go on everyone's profile pages and mention some rape/molestation/incest shyt? Or shouldn't I ask......

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

"bu bu bu schemes and zone defenses(in which no team plays a lot of anyway)"

At least folks make a valid attempt to explain why defenses are better today, with reasoning and evidence. All y'all back-in-the-day ass nikkas just keep repeating the same one-liners. Which comes as no surprise 'cause usually y'all have your heads hidden away from reality.

 

[Rekkapryde]

Ray Allen, a Jordan Brand Athlete, isn't gonna be biased

 

[Wacky D]

thread title is scust.

people need to start pushing the term GOMT, instead of GOAT.

cats act like basketball started in the mid-80s. I particularly hate it when players talk like that.

Like if Lebron wins 2 more this convo might be legit because Lebron is the better overall player. But no one has Mike’s resume so it is what is

bill Russell has the goat resume.

I wonder if ray allen played against him.

 

[Zyne]

HEBREW CAME BEFORE ENGLISH, GAYBOY

LOL @ LYIN TO YASELF N PRETENDIN LIKE NO ONE CARES BOUT THE LANGUAGE OF THE ORIGINAL SCRIPTURES CUZ UR NAME MEAN DICC IN THAT LANGUAGE

Like the "original" scriptures mean anything.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

What I mean by "social conditioning", is that because LeBron plays during the Information Age where everything he does is under the microscope, he starts off at more of a historical deficit than players from previous eras (MJ experienced a similar thing when previous generations/players shytted on the era he played in), therefore, it's forced him to chase a standard drowned in basketball schmaltz, that's not reflective of reality. Which is part of the reason why he tries to have full control of everything on the court. Because nothing he does is ever enough to folks who mythologize Jordan and the greats that have come before him.

It's why he's become more of a complete player, because everything around him since he became perceptive of it has forced him to take on more responsibility to live up to this image that doesn't exist.

I'm talking about all the roles he plays as a collective. He doesn't play any role that no other player in history hasn't played, but he plays more of them than any other player in history.

But you see, LeBron plays does all those things.

Which is what I'm trying to point out: MJ's role on defense was primarily M2M defense, not "calling out screens and playing safety", because he played during a period where you didn't need a player like that to the same degree as you do now (as mentioned above, in a predominately ISO-based landscape with fewer moving parts you didn't need a safety-type defender), and the big men would generally assume that position because of the fixed roles.

It's why the average player today is more complete, than the average player 20-30+ years ago.

One of my main critiques of LeBron's play in recent times has been his lack of effort on the defensive end, which is partly because he's forced himself into taking such a heavy workload on offense, and then he ends up needing to do similar on the defensive end. Jordan didn't have to worry about that shyt in the backend of his career, because he had the likes of Pippen and Harper to take the majority of the perimeter defensive reps, so he could focus primarily on scoring, and leaving the bulk of other shyt to his teammates to take care of.

Don't the majority of primary ball-handlers who run the offense start the same way, from the same spot on the floor? And let's not act like LeBron didn't switch up shyt in Miami where he added more strings to his bow. Again, I don't see the sense in layering this point when MJ's possessions primarily consisted of weakside 1v1s.

Really? You're really gonna use free throws as a main talking point to hang your argument on?

I see we're back to this "90% offense" talking point that you criticized this era for.

No matter how many different ways you want to point out that Jordan has a better jump shot, it doesn't add any more notable weight to your argument that he's a more complete player. The funny thing about this is, LeBron has improved his jumpshot over the years to the point where it becomes a genuine lining when discussing how complete his game is, because he's proven that it's no longer a weakness for him.

That's one thing I believe that separates the two (if it's only marginally) when we're talking about who the better player is, not necessarily because LeBron is a "mental midget", but because he has a pass-first nature. Because even though LeBron has him covered in most areas, I value scoring (particularly in terms of style, exigency and mentality) above all else, because those things have more impact than anything else in the game.

@Champ_KW

You really gonna tell me to "check my moral compass" after we had these types of discussions?

 

[Champ_KW]

@Champ_KW

You really gonna tell me to "check my moral compass" after we had these types of discussions?

.....just an opinion on a totally different subject. Never said you were morally bankrupt. I just can't search my brain and land on any rational reason what homie is doing with the 14 year old can be explained away. I just can't. I respect your point of view on a lot of things.....that one was a little off center to my own rationale. That's all.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

.....just an opinion on a totally different subject. Never said you were morally bankrupt. I just can't search my brain and land on any rational reason what homie is doing with the 14 year old can be explained away. I just can't. I respect your point of view on a lot of things.....that one was a little off center to my own rationale. That's all.

It's rational because of the world they live in (morally is another argument altogether), it's as simple as that. You don't have to agree with it to acknowledge it exists.

 

[BigE214]

Jordan is not averaging 45ppg Do nikkas really know basketball or are they living in an alternate reality. I’d give him 40ppg though.

And Bron doesn’t have the resume to be called better than Mike but he’s damn close. And keeping it a buck there’s things he flat does better than Mike did...not the mention he’s faced better comp.

Like if Lebron wins 2 more this convo might be legit because Lebron is the better overall player. But no one has Mike’s resume so it is what is

Jordan routinely shot over 50% from the field. His numbers would be crazy against defenses today.

 

[Bilz]

That faggit nikkas on my nuts now

I called you a Kobestan a few days ago when you were trying to claim you were impartial. Dont remember ever talking to you before that. God damn you're sensitive.

 

[dappadonna]

Are you implying that players know more than guys who have access to advanced stats?

You think just because ray allen played against Mike and also played against LeBron that his opinion has some sort of merit?

You realize how absurd that is?

Imagine if I test drove a Mercedes and BMW and I said the BMW handled better. How Can I make that claim? I gave no stats, no facts, just a baseless opinion.

Please stop dumbing down basketball

I really wish they would take games off TV and just put the advanced stats on the screen instead. I'll tell you one thing, the discussions would be a lot more nuanced and high level

You're usually a good poster so nono disrespect, but yall gotta stop With this "he played ball for 30 years and has spent 30,000 hours watching film and he's plsyed against everyone, etc"

NONE OF THAT SHYT MATTERS

can he give you the derivative of vorp's trinomial? If not, pleast stop the foolishness.

Stop it fam . I've seen you use the same angle on Coli posters because you've 'played overseas'