So voter fatigue over the fact the bulls won 60 games and swept miami in the regular season and had them crying in the lockeroom
I re-open the debate: How many MVPs should LeBron James have?
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So voter fatigue over the fact the bulls won 60 games and swept miami in the regular season and had them crying in the lockeroom
How do you come in with a stat argument and just make up random crap?
Rose averaged 25-4-8-1-1 on 44% shooting and was the Bulls' biggest liability on defense.
Lebron averaged 27-8-7-2-1 on 51% shooting and was 1st-team All-Defensive team.
Going by the stats, it would have been a landslide for Lebron. Rose won because the Bulls won 60 (due to Thibs coaching and team defense, though Rose was huge on offense), and because of voter fatigue and The Decision.
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If you go by how the award usually is awarded, I think he gets 6. 2006 and 2008 were great statistical seasons, but his team just didn't have enough success compared to what is expected of an MVP season. So he gets the 4 he was given, plus 2011 and 2015. Durant barely edges him out in 2014, and Curry deserves it over him this year.
But going by who is actually the most valuable player in the league? I think he wins 8-9 that way.
FWIW, if he finishes in the top-3 in MVP voting this year, it'll be the eighth straight year he's done that. That ties Bill Russell and Larry Bird for the 2nd-longest streak all-time. Magic finished top-3 in MVP voting in 9 straight years.
But going by who is actually the most valuable player in the league? I think he wins 8-9 that way.
FWIW, if he finishes in the top-3 in MVP voting this year, it'll be the eighth straight year he's done that. That ties Bill Russell and Larry Bird for the 2nd-longest streak all-time. Magic finished top-3 in MVP voting in 9 straight years.
Kobes Two Jerseys
8 or 24 best player of the era
All that focus and 2-4.
Bron focused on rings not awards, his stans should be as well
labelplant
Wilt Chamberlain
He is so fukking good. Curry is having an all time great season. He is literally unstoppable but some days I still think Bron is better.
IMO 2nd best player since the 80s besides Mike.
IMO 2nd best player since the 80s besides Mike.
Gil Scott-Heroin
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Gil Scott-Heroin
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You CLEARLY didn't watch the Bulls that season. Rose was arguably the best defensive PG that season (definitely one of the best) - he was locking up PGs left, right and center - he was incredible on defense during his MVP season. Boozer was the biggest liability for the Bulls; most certainly not Rose.
Bulls had a higher defensive rating when Rose was off the court than when he was on it.
The Bulls had Deng, Brewer, and Bogans all playing incredible defense on the perimeter within Thibs' fantastic scheme. And then they had Noah to clean up behind them, with Gibson and Thomas being plus defenders in their roles as well. Rose certainly played better defense in 2010-11 than he had in previous years, but calling him "arguably the best defensive PG that season" is laughable - I don't think he was even a plus defender overall. He was definitely the 4th-best perimeter defender on the team after Brewer, Deng, and Bogans. Deng was playing more minutes than Rose...why? Even with Brewer there to spell him, Thibs had him at nearly 40 minutes/game.
You're right that I forgot about Boozer. But with Gibson/Thomas both getting a ton of minutes and playing really solid defense, Boozer's defensive issues didn't matter as much. Rose played over 3000 minutes that season....Boozer only played 1800.
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Gil Scott-Heroin
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That applies to every Bulls starter though - not just Rose - the Bulls had a better defensive rating with either Rose, Bogans, Deng, Boozer or Noah off the court. It wasn't necessarily because the starters had a bad defense (although Boozer was a great hindrance), it was because the OG Bench Mob were perhaps the greatest defensive second unit of the last decade.Bulls had a higher defensive rating when Rose was off the court than when he was on it.
The Bulls had the #1 defense that season, mostly because of the bench, but the starters DRTG would've still landed them in the top 10.
For the '10/'11 season:
#2 in DRTG for starting PGs
#1 in overall defensive PPP for starting PGs - 0.77 (for comparison Brewer was the only Bulls defender who gave up less points per possession - 0.76)
#1 in isolation defensive PPP for starting PGs - 0.67
#1 in P&R ball handler defensive PPP for starting PGs - 0.73
#2 in spot up defensive PPP for starting PGs - 0.92
#1 in blocks per game for all PGs (0.63 blocks per game - for comparison the second best starting PG only averaged 0.37 blocks per game)
#2 in blocks per game for all guards (Wade was first with 1.12 block per game)
Only gave up 11 20+ point games to opposing PGs - best mark for starting PGs
No other PG came close to the statistical feats he had during that season.
Now obviously all the above stats are context-heavy, but if you followed the Bulls closely that season you would've seen that Rose was the unsung hero for them on defense; he honestly didn't get enough recognition on the side of the floor during his MVP season. Rarely would he ever take a night off on defense, especially against the other elite PGs in the game - who he would regularly shut down.
Biscayne
Ocean air
How many games did Cleveland win in 06 for there to be an argument that he should've won MVP that year?As we end another season where Bron posts impressive numbers but loses to another candidate, you're left wondering will he be stuck at 4 forever....
I personally think he should already be at least at 5 (fukkin Derrick Rose?
Thoughts?
Because everytime I make the argument that Wade should have won MVP in 2009, I always get the "But LeBron led Cleveland to 60 wins" talk.
Biscayne
Ocean air
The gap with Rose was HUGE though - from 1.03ppp with him on the court to 0.93ppp with him off the court. He had the worst defensive +/- of any of Chicago's 9 main rotation players, and it was much worse than the other 8.
Pointing out that the Bulls had a fantastic defensive bench is not a good argument for Rose getting MVP. If the Bulls don't win 60 games and have the best record in the league, he doesn't sniff that award. And the MAIN reason they jumped from 41 to 62 wins was because of Thibs and the defense, not because Rose suddenly had 20+ wins improvement in one season. In 2011-12 the Bulls went 18-9 in games that Rose didn't play in, showing that they could be a very good team even when their best player was completely subtracted from the equation. They mentally collapsed when they lost him in the playoffs, as most teams do when they lose their best player, but that's not an argument for MVP. The Thunder collapsed when they lost Westbrook in 2013, and he wasn't even the best player on the team, much less in the NBA.
Can you imagine that 2010-11 Heat team going 18-9 without Lebron? (FTW, the Heat were 2-5 without Lebron from 2010-2012.)
I think it follows that when literally every teammate on the court (except maybe Boozer) is better at defense than you and your coach is the best defensive mind in all of basketball, your defensive numbers are going to get inflated.
As Henry Abbott pointed out, he didn't just suddenly go from an awful defender to one of the best in the league. No one makes an offseason improvement like that. He went from abysmal to average. Maybe a little above-average, but that's pushing it. Every one of your stats is influenced by the fact that he had elite defensive teammates taking the toughest matchups, elite defensive teammates swarming the passing lanes, elite defensive teammates picking up slack when he got beat on drives, and elite defensive teammates generally breaking down the other team until they got weary and beat-down as hell every game.
And how can you brag about his "statistical feats" that season, while acknowledging that not only were they the result of Thibs' defense, but ignoring that Lebron had greater statistical feats on the offensive and defensive side of the ball than Rose did? And it certainly wasn't because of Spolstra's amazing defensive brain.
As long as you're quoting some advanced stats, let's do some comparisons:
Lebron Drtg 101.6
Rose Drtg 102.7
Lebron Ortg 116.2
Rose Ortg 112.8
Lebron Offensive Win Shares 10.3
Rose Offensive Win Shares 8.3
Lebron Defensive Win Shares 5.3
Rose Defensive Win Shares 4.8
Lebron Box +/- 8.6 (6.5 offense, 2.1 defense)
Rose Box +/- 5.9 (5.8 offense, 0.1 defense)
Lebron VORP 8.2
Rose VORP 6.0
For the Bulls, Derrick Rose was the most important and most skilled player on offense, and maybe the 7th-best player on defense.
For the Heat, Lebron James was the most important and most skilled player on offense AND the most important and most skilled player on defense.
The Chicago Bulls won all of 4 more games than the Heat, 62 instead of 58, so it's not like team success was meaningfully different. Rose got the MVP because The Decision made everyone want to vote for anyone but Lebron, back-to-back MVPs had caused voter fatigue (even Jordan only won back-to-back MVPs once, and never three in a row), and because the Bulls hit that magic number of 60 wins. But Lebron was the better and more valuable player that season.
(And of course playoffs can't figure into MVP deliberation, but Lebron clearly showed who was more important in the ECF that year. Not only did Deng play more minutes than Rose as he had all season, but Lebron played 20 more minutes than those two or anyone else. And Lebron's 26-8-7-2-2 on 45/39/86 shooting was low-key one of the greatest all-around performances in an ECF considering the defense he was facing and his dominant 4th/OT performances in the last 4 games. And on defense...12 steals and 9 blocks in 5 games, not to mention shutting down Rose personally in multiple games! Meanwhile, Rose limped to 23-4-7-1-0 on 35/23/81 shooting.)
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rigby breh, you've said you're 16 before. at most 17. why you talking about 2006 like you weren't a fukking 6 year old.
Doesnt just apply to him either, I've seen a couple of posters that I know for a fact are under 25 discuss guys like Larry Bird as if they saw them play.
Rigby.
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it's an opinionated thread breh calm downHow many games did Cleveland win in 06 for there to be an argument that he should've won MVP that year?
Because everytime I make the argument that Wade should have won MVP in 2009, I always get the "But LeBron led Cleveland to 60 wins" talk.
LeBron did have the best overall stats in 06, and chipped in a combined point total (points + assists) more than Kobe. both probably deserved it more than Nash tho
I'm not sure why you're hating on Bron winning it because maybe winning games was the tipping factor. that's how Kobe won his only one
