I see Duncan is still 5hiting on Garnett

SwagKingKong

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Kobe was a great defender, but after 2004 he focused more on offense and slacked off on the defensive end. He was still great when he tried.

Yeah, I know. He was able to play great defense in spurts but the point is, he didn't. He's known for taking possessions off defensively and saved his energy for the offensive end. Smart move, considering the general public kept thinking he was still playing great defense and gave him all those all-D teams that even had Lakers fans looking :pachaha:

I'm not saying he couldn't play great defense if he put his mind into it, but he didn't after ~2003. I've never seen Garnett coast defensively, not even during garbage time :shaq:
 

Street Knowledge

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:bryan: Kobe was NOT elite defensively up until 2009, are you kidding me? I've already read a thousand discussions about this and the obvious answer is that Bryant hasn't been playing great perimeter defense since 2003. And this doesn't even include the fact that Kobe can't match Garnetts impact defensively in the first place since Garnett was a) better defensively and b) is a big men which is more impactful defensively.

Too bad offense isn't only about scoring though. While Kobe is the better raw scorer, Garnett outplays him when it comes to getting his teammates buckets (especially in his prime), setting screens, offensive rebounding etc. which are all a part of your offensive scheme.

The overall impact Garnett had is bigger than Bryants. You can rave about his raw scoring numbers all you want but you can't even find another single argument as to why Bryant is better and more impactful.

Where's this evidence kobe stopped being elite on defense in 03'? nikkaz you talk to? Flawed on/off stats? Individual defensive rating which is too team dependent?

And I never said Kobe was impactful as KG defensively, I said Kobe ability as an offensive anchor and Especially as a scorer is more valuable then What KG brings you. Especially in the Playoffs.

Speaking of impact, why were the wolves always trash(aside from 04') with KG defensively? Say what you will about Kobe but the lakers were always an elite offensive team no matter who was around him.

The 2006 and 2007 Lakers were top ten offenses with absolute trash around him
 

GreatestLaker

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And Garnett was second :shaq2:

No, but seriously. I know that it was a great year for Kobe and that's about the only year you'll see them splitting votes, lol. Had shaq played the full season without his bullshyt excuses not to play it would've been a different story.
Yeah, that splitting votes argument is silly. What hurt Shaq in MVP votes is the amount of games that he was missing.
 

SwagKingKong

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Where's this evidence kobe stopped being elite on defense in 03'? nikkaz you talk to? Flawed on/off stats? Individual defensive rating which is too team dependent?

And I never said Kobe was impactful as KG defensively, I said Kobe ability as an offensive anchor and Especially as a scorer is more valuable then What KG brings you. Especially in the Playoffs.

Speaking of impact, why were the wolves always trash(aside from 04') with KG defensively? Say what you will about Kobe but the lakers were always an elite offensive team no matter who was around him.

The 2006 and 2007 Lakers were top ten offenses with absolute trash around him

Why are the on and off stats flawed? You obviously don't look at numbers in a vacuum and together with other stats it actually helps in trying to see the whole picture. For example, there are adjusted plus and minus numbers which accounts for lineups so you don't have to worry about the stat being too team dependant. Actually, the numbers you quote on the trade about how "Lakers were a top 10 offense " is heavily team based..

And Wolves were never "trash" with Garnett defensively. Wolves were most often in the 15th, 16th range defensively, while actually maintaining a top 5 offense in his prime. Now you may credit Szczerbiak, Hudson and Nesterovic for that top 5 offense, but I'm giving my credit to KG.

His absolute peak was in 03-04, Timberwolves were a top 5 offense and a top 6 defense, while only allowing 89.1 ppg against them (top 7 in the league). while posting a SRS of 5.86 (2nd in the league)

I fail to see how Wolves were trash defensively with KG and not great offensively with him.. Let me guess, it doesn't fit your previous picture of Garnett? Well, it sure didn't with me either until I read up more of what he actually did. He's been overlooked for far too long now.
 

Street Knowledge

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Wolves defensively in the KG era

95-96: 20th in DRating
96-97: 15th in DRating
97-98: 23rd in DRating
98-99: 11th in Drating
99-00: 12th in DRating
00-01: 16th in DRating
01-02: 15th in DRating
02-03: 16th in DRating
03-04: 6th in DRating
04-05: 15th in DRating
05-06: 10th in DRating
06-07: 21st in DRating

Werent trash but Mostly mediocre and average, with some years finishing outside of the top 20. I don't see this elite impact defensively until he came to Boston. Dwight for example was anchoring elite defenses in Orlando(including number one in 09') with mostly Medicore and in some cases flat out terrible defensive players.

I used the team defense argument because you were taking about how much he impacts the game defensively and it didnt show up in how well Minnesotas defense was. Then I showed how good LA was offensively because it helps my argument that Kobe's can make you an elite offense no matter whose around him, even trash.


KG is a top 5 defender in history. But ill take certain players over him because I believe their offense Is more valuable as franchise players in the playoffs then his defense. KG rarely showed that ability to take over and dominate offensively in the playoffs. It's a reason he only has 9 30 point games and no 40 point games in the offs.
 

Street Knowledge

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And yes individual defensive stats are flawed. Youll never be able to see how good a palyer is on defense with statistics.

Carlos boozer is one of the worst defensive players in the league and his Drtg has been 99/98/95 the last 3 years. But he plays on a elite defensive team in an elite defensive system


Ill revisit this thread later when I can
 

Malta

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Now who else wanna fukk with Hollywood Court?
What do you base this on? Statistically speaking, there's literally nothing you could use to set them apart. And that's just using basic boxscore numbers.

Look at their adjusted plus and minus rankning;

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2003.html

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2004.html

Virtually the same over those two years. :stopitslime:



I base it on results, I base it on the fact that Duncan could create his own offense consistently in the post. I base it on the fact his teams were almost always better defensively regardless of what trash center was starting next to him after Robinson left. I base it on the fact he has a winning record against KG, and I base it on the fact the Spurs have had the highest winning percentage in all 4 major sports since Duncan was drafted.

You want to get into numbers?
In 2002-2003, 59% of KG's shots were assisted, only 46% for Duncan
In 2003-2004 67% of KG's shots were assisted, only 53% for Duncan

Duncan created from the post for himself, and the numbers show it. The bulk of KG's offense came from jumpshots, while Duncan's offense would be more varied but still centered towards scoring down low.

You can look at boxscores until the end of time, everyone who watched them saw the clear difference between the two of them, and you can see that difference to this day. It's that Duncan had a vicious back to the basket game, he put more pressure on a defense than KG ever could, and you could dump the ball into the post and tell him "Get us 2" in a close game. Meanwhile, KG was taking turn around jumpers over Doug Christie and shyt.
 

SwagKingKong

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I base it on results, I base it on the fact that Duncan could create his own offense consistently in the post. I base it on the fact his teams were almost always better defensively regardless of what trash center was starting next to him after Robinson left. I base it on the fact he has a winning record against KG, and I base it on the fact the Spurs have had the highest winning percentage in all 4 major sports since Duncan was drafted.

You want to get into numbers?
In 2002-2003, 59% of KG's shots were assisted, only 46% for Duncan
In 2003-2004 67% of KG's shots were assisted, only 53% for Duncan

Duncan created from the post for himself, and the numbers show it. The bulk of KG's offense came from jumpshots, while Duncan's offense would be more varied but still centered towards scoring down low.

You can look at boxscores until the end of time, everyone who watched them saw the clear difference between the two of them, and you can see that difference to this day. It's that Duncan had a vicious back to the basket game, he put more pressure on a defense than KG ever could, and you could dump the ball into the post and tell him "Get us 2" in a close game. Meanwhile, KG was taking turn around jumpers over Doug Christie and shyt.

You rave about Spurs defense and ignoring the fact that he ALWAYS played within a great defensive system, with a great defensive coach and great defensive players. If you don't believe how much a great defensive scheme can help a team defense, when you have an anchor, you can start wondering how the hell Boston had the best defense in the NBA last year? Rondo, Ray Allen, Pierce, Bass playing heavy minutes.. It's because they have an anchor in Garnett and a defensive scheme that allows them to execute that defense. Does anyone seriously believe that Flip Saunders would make those Minny teams great defensive? Dude is like one of the worst defensive coaches and played a zone with Garnett at the top. Not to mention their roster was awful defensively and shouldn've been dead last defensively. Cassell, Sprewell, Hassell and Olowokandi has no business being top 6 defensively in the league, come on..

Sure, Garnetts offense was more assisted. I don't deny that Duncan was better at creating for himself in the post but that's not the single thing that makes a great offensive players.

Here are some more food for thought;

In 2002-2003, Garnetts AST% was 25.8, compared to Duncans 19.5 % (his highest ever)
In 2003-2004, Garnetts AST% was 24.4, compared to Duncans 17.4 %.

As you see, Garnett was MUCH better at creating for others in his offense and he did this all while turning the ball over less. That's a HUGE difference.

What you're describing at the end of your post is just another bullshyt made up view of Garnett. He was putting as much pressure on defenses as Duncan at his peak. He wasn't as good as him scoring the ball but the way he initiated their offense from the top of the key and got people in position to score was an aspect of the game that shytted on Duncans ability.
 

humble Hermit

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You rave about Spurs defense and ignoring the fact that he ALWAYS played within a great defensive system, with a great defensive coach and great defensive players. If you don't believe how much a great defensive scheme can help a team defense, when you have an anchor, you can start wondering how the hell Boston had the best defense in the NBA last year? Rondo, Ray Allen, Pierce, Bass playing heavy minutes.. It's because they have an anchor in Garnett and a defensive scheme that allows them to execute that defense. Does anyone seriously believe that Flip Saunders would make those Minny teams great defensive? Dude is like one of the worst defensive coaches and played a zone with Garnett at the top. Not to mention their roster was awful defensively and shouldn've been dead last defensively. Cassell, Sprewell, Hassell and Olowokandi has no business being top 6 defensively in the league, come on..

Sure, Garnetts offense was more assisted. I don't deny that Duncan was better at creating for himself in the post but that's not the single thing that makes a great offensive players.

Here are some more food for thought;

In 2002-2003, Garnetts AST% was 25.8, compared to Duncans 19.5 % (his highest ever)
In 2003-2004, Garnetts AST% was 24.4, compared to Duncans 17.4 %.

As you see, Garnett was MUCH better at creating for others in his offense and he did this all while turning the ball over less. That's a HUGE difference.

What you're describing at the end of your post is just another bullshyt made up view of Garnett. He was putting as much pressure on defenses as Duncan at his peak. He wasn't as good as him scoring the ball but the way he initiated their offense from the top of the key and got people in position to score was an aspect of the game that shytted on Duncans ability.
While this may be true, please understand that it's not up to a big man to create offense as much as Garnett did. I've always looked at it as an overrated stat(For BigMen) sorta like PGs that rebounds. In the 4th quarter where it matters is where KG caught all his grief until Sprewell and Cassell showed up. I'm not hating on KG, cause although TD has always been my fav player(check my location) KG to me is what the perfect Bball player would be, cause he does it all............. KG just never had it in him to lead teams. Aint his fault. :mjgeek:
 

SwagKingKong

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While this may be true, please understand that it's not up to a big man to create offense as much as Garnett did. I've always looked at it as an overrated stat(For BigMen) sorta like PGs that rebounds. In the 4th quarter where it matters is where KG caught all his grief until Sprewell and Cassell showed up. I'm not hating on KG, cause although TD has always been my fav player(check my location) KG to me is what the perfect Bball player would be, cause he does it all............. KG just never had it in him to lead teams. Aint his fault. :mjgeek:

Assists for big men is NOT an overrated stat. To have a big men that can set up players either playing the point forward or finding cutters from the post is a great skill to have. Only a few really excel on it and KG is probably the best ever at it.

PGs that rebound isn't really overrated either because it's much easier to run when your PG get the rebound. Having a great rebounding PG essentially helps your fast break, alot. That is, if you have a team that's capable of running and wants to run.

That 4th quarter myth I will barely address. It's just another myth that's been around about Garnett and it has been debunked multiple times. For example, most people seem to believe that he wasn't the first option during Bostons title run and that he wasn't their "closer". Truth is, he lead them in scoring, shots taken, and points in the 4th quarter and even points in the last 5 minutes of the game. It's just tiresome to constantly address this because there is no factual evidence of Garnett not being a great player in the 4th quarter, infact there's evidence that he infact was a great 4th quarter player.

Again, I'm not debating whether Duncan has had a better career than Garnett, he should be ranked higher. They're very similar in impact, all this while Duncan is much more decorated. What I'm saying is that they peaked as high as eachother.
 

No1

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Yeah, that splitting votes argument is silly. What hurt Shaq in MVP votes is the amount of games that he was missing.

Games were one thing, but Shaq was the only player in the top 5 in MVP voting that had another player on his team consistently top 5. But you say off the wall shyt all the time so I don't blame you for not knowing that.

And Garnett was second :shaq2:

No, but seriously. I know that it was a great year for Kobe and that's about the only year you'll see them splitting votes, lol. Had shaq played the full season without his bullshyt excuses not to play it would've been a different story.

No it's not the only year. Kobe at his peak was CLEARLY better than KG, you are talking to the biggest KG fan on this site outside of Tremont and you're talking nonsense. The opinion you hold is something out of the twilight zone.

2001-02: Shaq and Kobe both top 5.
2002-03: Shaq and Kobe both top 5
03-04: Kobe 5 and Shaq 6.


They had a dynamic no one else had with two top 3-5 players both being on the same team. That's not even to say that I disagree with the MVP winners of those years, I think the NBA got it right. But tt's why some people thought LeBron wouldn't win anymore MVPs because they assumed both he and Wade would be great, but that hasn't been the case. There's a been a definitive back seat.

Kobe slacked off on defense because his team required it. KG was incapable of picking up the offensive load in the playoffs when his team required it. As far as defense goes, a defensive post presence will more often than not be more important than a guy on the wing. But Kobe was a great two way player from 2000-2004.
 
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