Illmatic and Infamous Are NOT Mainstream Hip Hop Albums? True or False

[Art Barr]

On what merit was "Come Clean" as big as "Shook Ones" or "It Ain't Hard To Tell".

Come clean was bigger than both culturally.

If there is no come clean.

I doubt nas and mobb deep would have had a draw.
to break through without come clea.
being the lead highest quality vinyl Instrumental of all of 1993.

Mainstream wise mobb deep at that exact time.
was a failed luke style adult to kidd rap group.

Inferior to but like illegal.
Yet not looked at culturally, or as skilled. Plus not taken serious at all.

Mobb deep originally were what if the puppies and the famlee.
made a luke style record but from nyc in the styles war era.

They were not culturally driven or accepted originally.

Nor given props for skills.
Mobb deep maybe the only young teen to adult rap group in history. To make a content change and be culturally accepted.
after being deemed completely unlistenable and wack.





Art Barr


*also people need to remember jeru suffered at the time. The second longest admin delay next to big l to get sun rises to release. So take into consideration. That jeru is not a technical renaissance emcee but the guy who should have been arguably the best styles war emcee predating the change in sonic landscape and technical renaissance Nas ushered in. Jeru was that dope. That he still drew like jeru did in an era as an outlier.
Plus and completely outside the album sales envleope cycle with the second worst delays. Outside of the sonic landscape and era his album was released in. That is how dope jeru was on that first album. In that exact eta. That jeru translated with what would have been deemed music bypassed by the change in sonic landscape.[equal to the slang of played out] That is how good jeru was. Along with primo of course as well. That usually was a death sentence.
for a delayed debut rap album.



Art Barr

 

[BmoreGorilla]

Breh, its 50 states with countless cities. You playing dumb for real now. It charted in the 60's in 1995, which means it was getting play nationally. There is no way to determine what time of day it was played. Four posters on a message baord don't make up enough to get a legit sample size to make that determination. Either way, there's no way "Shook Ones Pt. 2" wasn't their mainstream breakthrough. It still remains the song most people know them for.

Any hip hop that was popping in NY was popping here at that time. Shook Ones was being played on mix shows on weekend nites and that was it. So unless you listened to the radio during that time or watched Rap City and Yo MTV you most likely never heard that song

 

[Biscayne]

There are definitely some songs that have a mainstream song on both albums. It isn't coincidental that "It Ain't Hard To Tell" was chosen as a single as it has the "Human Nature" sample, which we already saw work for SWV with "Right Here". There's "One Love" as well. "Shook Ones Pt. 2" has a hook that sticks with you. All of this is hallmark to how mainstream music is created. Does that guarantee success? No, but it is key to mainstream music.

I’m saying. Would anyone argue that NWA wasn’t mainstream because of the music they were putting out? Straight Outta Compton was the hardest song ever up to that point. Brehs rapping about killing. But in hindsight, NWA and straighten outta Compton is seen as a hallmark of what mainstream “grit appeal” really is. Nas and Mobb were definitely mainstream. Despite not having “girl” cuts. Plenty of hardcore rappers had crossover appeal. Their whole appeal to the masses was essentially being hardcore. Their danger was part of the sell. By 1994, the pop rap MC hammer and vanilla ice type weren’t selling. Mainstream pop rappers has to get harder and more sonically aggressive. Maybe it’s my hindsight mind, but I can’t think of Shook Ones or World Is Youre in the same vain as a “don’t trust anyone” by street smartz or even a “Born 2 Live” by OC.

 

[mobbinfms]

@Art Barr were you in Chicago when Shook One’s Pt 2 and Infamous dropped?
Was Shook Ones Pt 2 getting daytime regular rotation radio play in Chicago?
I know Chicago wasn’t really a hip hop city at that time, was there even a radio station playing hip hop during the day?

 

[mobbinfms]

I’m saying. Would anyone argue that NWA wasn’t mainstream because of the music they were putting out? Straight Outta Compton was the hardest song ever up to that point. Brehs rapping about killing. But in hindsight, NWA and straighten outta Compton is seen as a hallmark of what mainstream “grit appeal” really is.

NWA actually shifted the mainstream. So when they dropped it absolutely wasn’t mainstream, but it became the dominant mainstream sound.

NY was never really able to do that with its hardcore or underground sound.

Remember the period where the West took over was when the East had fallen off commercially. It wasn’t until Biggie and IWW Nas that NY reasserted commercial dominance, but that wasn’t with raw underground shyt.

 

[Biscayne]

NWA actually shifted the mainstream. So when they dropped it absolutely wasn’t mainstream, but it became the dominant mainstream sound.

NY was never really able to do that with its hardcore or underground sound.

Remember the period where the West took over was when the East had fallen off commercially. It wasn’t until Biggie and IWW Nas that NY reasserted commercial dominance, but that wasn’t with raw underground shyt.

It was a mix of raw underground stuff with some mainstream bops. Because of NWA, that grit appeal helped NY get back on track in the mainstream. NY wasn’t doing reality rap to the same grit the west coast was ala NWA, Ice T. The mainstream popularity of an NWA, pathed the way for the grittiness of a Mobb Deep. Even if sonically, the two groups sound nothing alike. NY fell off because rap music got progressively more hardcore after NWA. Commercially, the masses s wanted an east coast answer to the west coast gangster rap

 

[mobbinfms]

It was a mix of raw underground stuff with some mainstream bops. Because of NWA, that grit appeal helped NY get back on track in the mainstream. NY wasn’t doing reality rap to the same grit the west coast was ala NWA, Ice T. The mainstream popularity of an NWA, pathed the way for the grittiness of a Mobb Deep. Even if sonically, the two groups sound nothing alike. NY fell off because rap music got progressively more hardcore after NWA. Commercially, the masses s wanted an east coast answer to the west coast gangster rap

I agree with all of this save for the last two sentences. Hardcore is too broad a term. What became mainstream was the west coast version of hardcore, which was gangsta shyt. And the masses never really wanted an east coast answer to west coast gangsta shyt because the truly hard NY shyt like Mobb and even Wu never got that daytime regular rotation radio play. Meth was the exception to that.

 

[Biscayne]

Think back. That’s why a rapper like Common Sense makes a “I Used to Love HER” in 1994 basically critiquing not only Westcoast hip hop, but Eastcoast hardcore and what y’all would typically associate with being “underground”. By 1994, Eastcoast hardcore was very much commercial. That’s why a Roots makes a “What they do” basically making fun of fellow Eastcoast artist because that hardcore “grit” sound became the hallmark of what commercial hip hop was sounding like. That’s why in hindsight, a Shook Ones sounds like the de facto commercial sound of Eastcoast hip hop of that time. Bad Boy doing the straight up instrument funk samples in the same vain of what Death Row was doing, was an anomaly amongst commercial Eastcoast hip hop. Most commercial Eastcoast hip hop wasn’t “Juicy”. Most of it was Shook Ones and other music y’all call “underground” in this thread.

 

[Biscayne]

I agree with all of this save for the last two sentences. Hardcore is too broad a term. What became mainstream was the west coast version of hardcore, which was gangsta shyt. And the masses never really wanted an east coast answer to west coast gangsta shyt because the truly hard NY shyt like Mobb and even Wu never got that daytime regular rotation radio play. Meth was the exception to that.

Most “real hip hop” heads saw the Eastcoast hardcore as just as much o sellouts as they did Westcoast. Because it was understood that the major labels wanted gangster music from Eastcoast rappers, bexuse of the popularity of Westcoast gangster rap. So Eastcoast gangster rap artist were viewed in that same “sell out” lane for putting on a show for the major labels. Performative grit. Definitely not underground in a classical sense. The white kids in the suburbs wanted to see timbs and dirty project hallways in their music.

 

[FunkDoc1112]

I agree with all of this save for the last two sentences. Hardcore is too broad a term. What became mainstream was the west coast version of hardcore, which was gangsta shyt. And the masses never really wanted an east coast answer to west coast gangsta shyt because the truly hard NY shyt like Mobb and even Wu never got that daytime regular rotation radio play. Meth was the exception to that.

But the West hardcore gangsta shyt was backed by a very smooth, palatable G-Funk sound - that was the key to the West Coast taking over. It was hardcore, dangerous AND catchy as fukk. NY got back on track when they figured that out with Biggie. Big and Puff modeled Ready to Die after The Chronic and it worked. And even Wu-Tang, as gritty and grimy as they were, had catchy songs thanks to Method Man and ODB.

While Mobb Deep didn't have any radio-friendly singles, they were still featured players since they provided that hardcore shyt that was missing from NY in the early 90s

 

[Biscayne]

Think back. That’s why a rapper like Common Sense makes a “I Used to Love HER” in 1994 basically critiquing not only Westcoast hip hop, but Eastcoast hardcore and what y’all would typically associate with being “underground”. By 1994, Eastcoast hardcore was very much commercial. That’s why a Roots makes a “What they do” because that hardcore “grit” sound became the hallmark of what commercial hip hop was sounding like. That’s why in hindsight, a Shook Ones sounds like the de facto commercial sound of Eastcoast hip hop of that time. Bad Boy doing the straight up instrument funk samples in the same vain of what Death Row was doing, was an anomaly amongst commercial Eastcoast hip hop. Most commercial Eastcoast hip hop wasn’t “Juicy”. Most of it was Shook Ones and other music y’all call “underground” in this thread.

“Now she’s a gangsta rolling with gangsta bytches” basically referencing Apache(from NJ) single Gangsta bytch

“I see nikkas slamming her and taking her to the sewer” referring to Onyx and Das Efx

By 1994, it was understood that the gritty sound was no longer “underground”. It was the de facto sound that labels were scrambling to get their hands on.

 

[mobbinfms]

Think back. That’s why a rapper like Common Sense makes a “I Used to Love HER” in 1994 basically critiquing not only Westcoast hip hop, but Eastcoast hardcore and what y’all would typically associate with being “underground”. By 1994, Eastcoast hardcore was very much commercial. That’s why a Roots makes a “What they do” basically making fun of fellow Eastcoast artist because that hardcore “grit” sound became the hallmark of what commercial hip hop was sounding like. That’s why in hindsight, a Shook Ones sounds like the de facto commercial sound of Eastcoast hip hop of that time. Bad Boy doing the straight up instrument funk samples in the same vain of what Death Row was doing, was an anomaly amongst commercial Eastcoast hip hop. Most commercial Eastcoast hip hop wasn’t “Juicy”. Most of it was Shook Ones and other music y’all call “underground” in this thread.

I’ll never for the life of me understand the shot at Das Efx. I get why he would mention Onyx given their image and that the song is partially about him pining for hip hop before west coast gangsta shyt became dominant. But at the end of the day, he gave Onyx and Das half a bar, even if it flew under the radar at the time.

If East Coast hardcore was very much commercial by 94, who were the artists doing numbers at that time without making radio singles? I’ll give you Wu. But they are the exception to the rule. East Coast hardcore shyt was absolutely not commercially viable then or really ever outside of a few exceptions.

What is your definition of commercial hip hop in 94-95? Spell out the parameters so I can understand what you mean.

 

[mobbinfms]

Most “real hip hop” heads saw the Eastcoast hardcore as just as much o sellouts as they did Westcoast. Because it was understood that the major labels wanted gangster music from Eastcoast rappers, bexuse of the popularity of Westcoast gangster rap. So Eastcoast gangster rap artist were viewed in that same “sell out” lane for putting on a show for the major labels. Performative grit. Definitely not underground in a classical sense. The white kids in the suburbs wanted to see timbs and dirty project hallways in their music.

No one considered Wu, Nas or Mobb as sellouts in 94-95. Whit kids in suburbs wanted Snoop and Dre.

 

[mobbinfms]

But the West hardcore gangsta shyt was backed by a very smooth, palatable G-Funk sound - that was the key to the West Coast taking over. It was hardcore, dangerous AND catchy as fukk. NY got back on track when they figured that out with Biggie. Big and Puff modeled Ready to Die after The Chronic and it worked. And even Wu-Tang, as gritty and grimy as they were, had catchy songs thanks to Method Man and ODB.

While Mobb Deep didn't have any radio-friendly singles, they were still featured players since they provided that hardcore shyt that was missing from NY in the early 90s

I agree with all of this. Mobb was definitely huge in the underground in 95. As big as anyone outside of Wu. But they weren’t mainstream.

 

[mobbinfms]

“Now she’s a gangsta rolling with gangsta bytches” basically referencing Apache(from NJ) single Gangsta bytch

“I see nikkas slamming her and taking her to the sewer” referring to Onyx and Das Efx

By 1994, it was understood that the gritty sound was no longer “underground”. It was the de facto sound that labels were scrambling to get their hands on.

Dad Efx was huge back back in 92. By 95 they had receded and their style had played out. They were basically in the Underground at that point with real hip hop. Same with Onyx.

I’m not saying there wasn’t money to be made in the underground, but in 94 labels were scrambling to get somebody like Biggie.