Is Jason Kidd a top 3 PG of all time?

[rapbeats]

Check This Out

When J Kidd Was On The Floor, Between His Team And The Opponants There Were On Average About 7-8 Guys Bigger Than Him

When Gary Payton Was On The Floor, Between His Team And The Opponents There Were About 7-8 Guys Bigger Than Him

I Dunno Why Were Talking about REBOUNDS When Were Talking PGs Anyway, We Can Talk About Assists But We Know How That Will End

see you dont understand basketball. SIZE doesnt matter if you have a big man who is a Poor rebounder.

we're talking about rebounds because people use the fact JKidd was a triple double machine to prove he's better then GP and others. the truth is, there's a reason why he was snagging boards like that. his team was lacking good rebounding big men his entire prime. therefore if he had to play with gary's big men. he would not be the triple double machine he was known to be. his stats would be different. if he himself had a jumpshot and wasnt afraid to shoot. he would not have been instructed to RUN and ONLY run on all those nets teams. there's a reason a team runs ALLLLL the time. and is afraid to setup in the half court. thats cause they Suck at it. the nets with jkidd sucked at it. because jkidd's threat was no longer scary when you knew he would pass it, cause he surely was not going to shoot it. GP was unpredictable in the half court. and great on the break. his teams were not afraid of the half court offense. because PG would shoot, would score on people, etc.

the truth about prime jkidd is that he was 2 dimensional on offense. 100% pass(pass it around the perimeter, drive and kick/dish). pass 1st, 2nd and 3rd. notice i never said he was attacking to score or going to shoot a jumper. but he did have very very good defense, and he was on the glass.

GP on the other hand was 4 Dimensional. he might pass it, shoot it or drive to the rack to score or pass. on top of that GP was a DPOY at one point.

 

[itsyoung!!]

at a few things in this thread

at the love stockton getting, finally

at the disrespect towards the glove in this thread

you can tell the casual fans, or the people who really dont watch basketball at all really just looking at this thread.. everything is "PPG this" and "PPG that" and "he scored this many points" basketball is played on both sides of the court.. theres this little thing called "defense" maybe you've heard of it ? but just googling stats, maybe you havnt.. GP would easily make my top 5 this mafukka was locking down jordan.. and I know you casual fans gonna say "he still scored" jordan, lebron, kobe type players are going to score no matter.. its how you make them work for it or if they average 30 but only get 20 on you or get into more foul trouble than usual, or get frustrated and do worse on defense as well.. thats a huge drop off but the casual fans dont understand it or see it or care about it


but fukk it really... all they care about is rings and stats on paper

 

[rapbeats]

Kidd played with Shawn Marion for about 3 years....Marion averaged 10 rpg during that time.Marion might be the best rebounding Small Forward of all time.Back in his hey, he was a hound on the boards

marion was averaging 6.5 rpg 99-00 , jkidd was in the 7's that year

marion being THEE only forward to rebound at all for that small ball team. in his 2nd year did average 10.7 rebounds per game. but guess what happened to jason kidds rebounds? they dropped. he was now in the 6's.

it proves my point.

the more Rebounding big men you have on your team. the less a guard has to go down there to HELP with rebounding. in addition every team jkidd played on was a run n fun team. except for the mavs when he got old. RUN n FUn teams with jkidd being 6'4 and not having any rebounders on the team or at best ONE guy. it means he will have to go grab the rebound so he can PUSH the tempo.

GP played in some run n gun offenses but even then nothing like jkidds offenses. because GP had a full faceted game. he was not afraid to shoot/score in the half court. so he didnt have to run 24/7 like kid did.

he didnt have to grab all boards to PUSH IT every single time.

GP had his best rebounding year under Paul westphal . mr run n fun. thats cause gary was instructed to stay back and grab the board to push it, especially since the only rebounders he had on the team were old man ho grant and vin baker both averaging under 8 per.

 

[BlackFeet]

2 MVPs and ran the greatest offenses of all time.

A FRADULENT MVP winner, stealin' trophies that belonged to O'Neal and Bryant respectively, due in large part to politics involvin' a debacle in Auburn Palace, and a rape case in Colorado, and really has nothin' else to warrant him bein' a HOF, let alone > Price

 

[MooseMouthMthafuga]

again, i see you dont know what you're talking about. who cares if his post game was awkward looking and methodical. IT WORKED. you couldnt stop it. i've seen that fool GP post up forwards and spin on them every which way for a basket. you could not stop him downlow on the block. PERIOD.

you just exposed yourself. you're looking for PRETTY. vs production. now granted his shot was suspect but unlike jkidd. gp was not afraid to shoot. jkidd came around late in his career as a legit shooter. the thing was jkidd always had good mechanics. but he was so nervous when shooting jumpers he shot the ball like a hot potatoe. that was since his days at CAL.

you talking about what was Gp'd defining moment. what was jkidd? he doesnt have one. and please dont bring up nothing with the mavs. he was old by then and nothing but a catch and shoot guy.

thats like me bringing up a defining moment where gp made a few timely baskets for the heat when he finally got a ring.

these guys are not magic. not even close. they are not I.thomas. so they wont have a bunch of "DEFINING moments" that we remember.

jkidd made wing players with athleticism better but only in an up tempo offense. Jkidd could not deal with a half court offense because..... hE couldnt and wouldnt shoot.

GP could run in a run n fun offense OR a half court offense. didnt matter to him.

thats the biggest difference between the two in their primes.

you talk about gary had his best year as a run n fun guy. yet you act as if all of jkidds best years were not in a run n fun offense. lucky for him he was in the east playing vs some of the worse comp the nba has ever seen in one conference at one time.

GP was playing power teams of the west, kings, jazz, rockets, depending on which year(the lakers, portland). the west was stacked... i mean we do recall GP won a DPOY in 95-96 season right?

Jkidd's nets beating up on the celtics (not the ones we saw win a ring. paul and chucking Antoine walker as your two goto guys and nothing else after those two. walker was a PF that hot below 40% from the field. awful.

the nets beat up on charlotte(hornets) :mashburn who was not the same after his injuries, baron davis who was pretty good but was a kid then 22 yrs old. and that was the end of that. no other big time players on that team.

and the one series they had a hard time winning. remember this i back when it was best out of 5, the series went 3-2. was vs the pacers. where they had a young Jermaine O'neal starting to ball at 23 years of age, older jalen rose doing his thing and old man 36 year old reggie miller still producing a little bit.

that was the tOugh east. LOL at that one.

You make it seem like GP was a 30ppg scorer.


He averaged 16 ppg for his career.....14 ppg in the playoffs.


Kidds defining moment was taking a garbage/dysfunctional Nets team to the NBA Finals.He turned a whole culture around

 

[MooseMouthMthafuga]

marion was averaging 6.5 rpg 99-00 , jkidd was in the 7's that year

marion being THEE only forward to rebound at all for that small ball team. in his 2nd year did average 10.7 rebounds per game. but guess what happened to jason kidds rebounds? they dropped. he was now in the 6's.

it proves my point.

the more Rebounding big men you have on your team. the less a guard has to go down there to HELP with rebounding. in addition every team jkidd played on was a run n fun team. except for the mavs when he got old. RUN n FUn teams with jkidd being 6'4 and not having any rebounders on the team or at best ONE guy. it means he will have to go grab the rebound so he can PUSH the tempo.

GP played in some run n gun offenses but even then nothing like jkidds offenses. because GP had a full faceted game. he was not afraid to shoot/score in the half court. so he didnt have to run 24/7 like kid did.

he didnt have to grab all boards to PUSH IT every single time.

GP had his best rebounding year under Paul westphal . mr run n fun. thats cause gary was instructed to stay back and grab the board to push it, especially since the only rebounders he had on the team were old man ho grant and vin baker both averaging under 8 per.

Marion averaged 6.5 his rookie year, but he played with Kidd another year after that and averaged 10.7 rpg

 

[BlackFeet]

He's not even top 7

1.Magic
2.Big O
3.Stockton
4.Zeke
5.Cousy
6.The Glove
7.Nash

Bob made Iverson look efficient. No way he's better than Nash and Payton.

 

[Reggie]

It's Magic Oscar Thomas Stockton and Kidd. Kidd was a beast and he may have been the best "pure" point of them all but I cant put him over these other 4 cuz they were better scorers and bigger threats on offense. Kidd was a monster though and with him retiring I think the term true point guard retired with him. And for real, I think their is a better chance at seeing the next Jordan or someone better before we will ever see a point guard better than Magic Johnson.

 

[rapbeats]

You make it seem like GP was a 30ppg scorer.


He averaged 16 ppg for his career.....14 ppg in the playoffs.


Kidds defining moment was taking a garbage/dysfunctional Nets team to the NBA Finals.He turned a whole culture around

wow. just like the above poster said. all yall care about is PPG. stop looking at his career avg when we know he played beyond his prime. thats foolish.

look at these dudes in their primes.

the nets were not that hot. but the east was even WORSE.. i just posted who he beat to get to the finals.

i mean the pacers were their toughest opponent and yet the pacers were 4th in the eastern conf with a 42-40 record. how pathetic.
chumps beating chumps. thats not impressive.

jason kidd on the nets got a chance to beat up on reallllly wack eastern teams. please dont make me post the rosters for the two years jkidd got to the finals.

we say jkidd made those guys? to some degree he did. but to some degree it was the offense and another it was those players being very good vs weak eastern comp in an up and down west coast style offense that BScott installed.

lets take a look at the nets best guys.

Kittles -his best years were Pre jason kidd.

Richard jefferson-was a young guy and didnt have game yet. but he turned himself into a solid player without jkidd.

Kenyon martin-uhh this guy was a #1 draft pick. no one made him better. he had a very good season with the nuggs as well. kidd did not make Kmart.

Lucious harris (best year was with kidd-the 2nd year they went to the finals)

keith van horn-uhhh this guy was a 20 ppg scorer before jason kidd got to the nets. sorry, kid did not make him look better. his injuries made him look worse.


jason kidd did not make byt one of those guys better and that was only for one season. it was the OFFENSE. a west coast run n gun offense vs slow methodical eastern conf teams that were not good to begin with.


to prove it was Bscott and not Jkidd. the moment bscott left. they never saw the finals again. as a matter a fact they got swept in the first round under lawrence brank.

kidd didnt see the light until he came back to dallas and played as an old man with a jumper with dirk and crew.

 

[MooseMouthMthafuga]

at a few things in this thread

at the love stockton getting, finally

at the disrespect towards the glove in this thread

you can tell the casual fans, or the people who really dont watch basketball at all really just looking at this thread.. everything is "PPG this" and "PPG that" and "he scored this many points" basketball is played on both sides of the court.. theres this little thing called "defense" maybe you've heard of it ? but just googling stats, maybe you havnt.. GP would easily make my top 5 this mafukka was locking down jordan.. and I know you casual fans gonna say "he still scored" jordan, lebron, kobe type players are going to score no matter.. its how you make them work for it or if they average 30 but only get 20 on you or get into more foul trouble than usual, or get frustrated and do worse on defense as well.. thats a huge drop off but the casual fans dont understand it or see it or care about it


but fukk it really... all they care about is rings and stats on paper

It wasn't just Payton making it hard for Jordan.The '96 Sonic's was arguably one of the top 5 defensive squads ever.shyt, Nate Mcmillan was just as good a defender as Payton.

Nate was hurt a lot in '96 and he got healthy as the playoffs were starting.That Sonics squad was #2 in defensive efficiency during the year, but they took it to another level during the playoffs.They put the clamps down on the Rockets.After watching that series, I knew they were going to the Finals.


In terms of team defense, only teams I've seen better since then were the '08 Celtics and the '04 Pistons

 

[rapbeats]

Marion averaged 6.5 his rookie year, but he played with Kidd another year after that and averaged 10.7 rpg

read my post i said that already.

 

[CrimsonTider]

yeah, it's "VERY retarded" for someone to say that Kareem was better than Dwight Howard because they didn't see Kareem play.

The only person saying anything retarded in this thread is you

You're missing the point.

I'm not comparing Kareem to Dwight. You would be comparing Dwight to people you have seen play and you would be comparing Kareem to no one.

Let your dad compare Kareem to other players.

What I'm saying is it should be understood that you are not factoring players you didn't see into the list.

 

[rapbeats]

It wasn't just Payton making it hard for Jordan.The '96 Sonic's was arguably one of the top 5 defensive squads ever.shyt, Nate Mcmillan was just as good a defender as Payton.

Nate was hurt a lot in '96 and he got healthy as the playoffs were starting.That Sonics squad was #2 in defensive efficiency during the year, but they took it to another level during the playoffs.They put the clamps down on the Rockets.After watching that series, I knew they were going to the Finals.


In terms of team defense, only teams I've seen better since then were the '08 Celtics and the '04 Pistons

stop it. THE GLOVE was the DPOY that year. stop it. 95-96, same year they played the bulls and lost 4-2.

GP was on Mike most of the series. dont under state this fact.


LISTEN to what the commentator says before the game starts(this is game 5). that nucca GP was in mikes JERSEY. i think gp's number changed to 23.

you dont stop super scorers you irritate them. frustrate them. make them WORK for everything they get. and put a little pressure on them on the other end.

the sonics blew them fools out. in game 4, after losing the first 3 games of the series. see below, gp locked up mike in game 4, mike came back strong in game 5, but still wasnt putting up jordan super numbers.
Chicago Bulls at Seattle SuperSonics Box Score, June 12, 1996 | Basketball-Reference.com

if you want a GP defining moment. it was this game. for those that ask for special moments.

he locked mike up. and he was smaller, less athletic.

this dude jordan shot 6-19 (.319 fg). 4 turnovers, and only 2 assists, for 23 points. cause he had 13 ft attempts.

gp was one of only a very small batch of players that was not afraid of mike.

 

[BlackFeet]

Better Stats, A shyt Ton More Triple Doubles, A Championship, And Longevity

You Can Pick Out Things Payton Did Better Than Kidd, But You Can Sit Here All Day Doing That With Any Given Player

That Doesnt Mean Payton Is No Slouch, He's Pretty Underrated Actually

this nikka said Kevin Johnson over Payton. Other than my top 5, Magic, Oscar, Zeke, Kidd, Stockton, I'd probably only put Walt Frazier and Bob Cousy ahead of GP.

Gary Payton is nowhere near a top 5 point guard brehs

Gary Payton was one of the most overated players in Nba history. He shouldn't even be in the discussion with J. Kidd

I'm not understandin' what makes Kidd better than Payton, when Payton's a more versatile player. I'll give Kidd the dimes, but I don't see it other than that. Payton gives me elite defense, while bein' much more reliable & efficient on offense

 

[ThaBronxBully]

Kidd Isnt The Defender GP Is But We Gonna Act Like He Aint Make 9 All Defensive Teams And Is 2nd In NBA History As Far As Steals?

Dudes Will Say Dont Use PPG Then Talk About PPG In Favor Of The Player They're Arguing For, Come On

Are We Arguing The Point Guard Position Here? I Could Have Swore This Is What That Thread Was About

Jason Kidd Is One Of THE BEST Only Rivaled By Magic Johnson As Far As His Decision Making, Yeah Better Than Stockton Too In that Regard, Jason Kidd Had Intangibles That Changed A Game That You Wont Read About On A Stat Sheet

Dudes Are Acting Like Anybody Is Calling GP A Bum Or Something