Silkk
Can't Change My Damn Avi :beli:
Now or then?
Is the lack of new starpower a real concern or do we just have to give it time?
- Thread starter 45123
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Playaz Eyez
Veteran
Yep, it's not really about age, it's about freshness. Cena is 39, yet has been damn near the exact character since he was 27. Reigns is on the same path as that, but doesn't move the needle nearly as much as Cena. He's had no development post-Shield.
Roman Brady
Nobody Lives Forever
the fuk are you talking about? Nash debut in WCW in 1990, then he went to WWF as diesel, 6 years deep is not new thats a veteran and age wise he was damn near 40..Scott hall was even older, the premise of this argument is stupid because they both played back up singers to Hogan who came on to the scene 17 years prior, was he new too? 
And why are you mentioning 97 when I specifically said 96?
peep the numbers Daniel -700 Million TA drew as champhe wasn't a draw in the slightest for casuals, just hyped the smark crowd that was watching anyway
Every casual fan left with Dwayne Johnson.
In what world is Brock Lesnar not a star? CM Punk was UFC third largest ppv draw in 2016 aside from Conor and Ronda. He had to be a star to some point, right? Daniel Bryan became a bigger star than Punk or Paul Levesque ever was. I dont see the issue yall are referring to. Cena was supposed to have been phased out for Roman Reigns two years ago, and Roman flopped, leaving there to be current limbo in that regard, but WWE is WWE #1 draw, so thats minor.
Naw hes freshened up his character post brand split. All he talks about now is how hes the old man on the block and the new era needs to go through him. He clearly would be a heel already if Roman was a success.
Be real Undertaker, HHH, Batista, Mysterio, Show and some of these other guys don't belong in this discussion. If you're talking about BIG STARS that truly move the needle and can carry the company for the next decade, it's Rock and Austin, then Cena in the new era. Rest of these dudes were all supporting players.
Reason it's not happening now is WWE conditioned you to believe nobody was on Cena's level for the past 15 years. He always comes out on top and anyone who got close was brushed off to the side, so now that's why business falls when he's gone because fans believe Cena is the big star and nobody can touch him. They are finally starting to get guys over on him like AJ, but as great as he is he's not the kind of crossover superstar that can carry the company.
Also the company is so bad creatively right now, that guys who have talent aren't being used in interesting ways. Imagine if Cena stayed as the whitemeat bland guy he debuted as, instead of becoming the rapper gimmick. Nobody has interesting gimmicks or characters anymore.
More I watch of this Kenny Omega cat he might be the one
I'm talking about both guys who will carry the company, your Mt Rushmores (Hogan, Cena, Austin, Rock), as well as the guys who aren't in that stratosphere but are still iconic af regardless (Taker, Sting, Berg, Orton, HHH, Batista etc.). WWE has none of the first, and only 2 of the second (Brock, Roman). Meanwhile, right now the WWE has an abundance of guys who, like your Edges, Jerichos, maybe even Foleys, are bonafide main event world champion stars, synonymous with the product, but not exactly iconic with that fortified brand recognition. The Mt Rushmores = A+, the icons = A-, the bonafide main eventers = B+. WWE got a whole lot of B+'s, 2 A-'s, and no A+'s. And I'm only talking popularity here, not skill or anything.
I did
Read the whole post foo. They're not in that conversation because their careers and runs didn't pan out the way they potentially could have. They're in that Edge/Jericho/Foley sphere.
peep the numbers Daniel -700 Million TA drew as champ
My thing about the Daniel Bryan situation is that the fans we know today as casuals / people who used to watch and nowadays just pay attention every now and then left because they either outgrew the product or just don't enjoy the product anymore. It takes more than just a couple months, which is how long Bryan's run was, to bring them back in. Bryan was the most over superstar on the WWE roster since John Cena in his prime, that's a fact. Bryan consistently drew ridiculous pops and still draws an instant reaction to this today, that's a fact. And its not all smarks who are in these crowds, and the IWC is no longer a restrictive term like that because Twitter exists and everybody has WiFi. If Bryan's run was longer, who knows where he might have took it.
Reigns has all the talent all in the world, he's just unpolished in one area (talking). I don't buy what people say about Reigns not being a star - he popped the crowd every single time during the Shield run and if you just watch him without the preconceived biases you'll see he has the it factor. His talent on the stick is the only fallacy because he wasn't brought up in the PC like these new guys. Everything else though, he gets it, and he's got it. He's super over with fans who don't give a fukk about workrates and technical flippy moves, and he's really popular with the kids and the female audience, 2 areas of the audience that really help the product.
Its not like WWE hasn't had chances to make Superstars. They just always fukk it up when they get hot:
Ryback
Ziggler
Bad News Barrett(Took away the whole damn gimmick
Bray
Alicia Fox
R-Truth
Del Rio
Yeah WWE's had a lot of chances, but as I said, from about 2007-2011 Vince refused to properly push any new stars for whatever reason (McIntyre, MVP, Ziggler, Truth, Rio, Barrett) or just completely botched the booking (Everybody you just mentioned). Just recently, I'd say 2014, the WWE has began a new initiative to at least try and properly manufacture new stars. However, we're only getting Edge's, Jericho's, and Foley's, and no Orton's or Taker's besides Brock and Rome, and certainly no Cena's. So is it a problem with the talent, or the booking, or do we just have to give it time for this current generation of viewers to grow up and more influentially infuse these guys into popular media
I wrote in the OP Brock and Roman are the only ones who are in the conversation but thats 2 people over the span of more than a decade.
They've gotta let go off the micromanaging a bit. You're smothering creativity by trying to make everything so "neat"
The majority of the roster is MUCH more interesting on YouTube/social media. And theres a reason for it
The majority of the roster is MUCH more interesting on YouTube/social media. And theres a reason for it
There's actually not a lack of star power, it's a lack of creative storylines and actual pushes. The product is too scripted which hinders the talent.
Let them sink or swim and push those that shine. Push people that people want to see. (Like AJ for ex)
Ziggler, Bray, Del Rio, Ryder should be much bigger.
Punk and Dbry could've been crossover stars. Especially in this era of comic book nerds and shyt.
Miz should also be a much bigger star than he is. Dude has that heel swag down pat.
Let them sink or swim and push those that shine. Push people that people want to see. (Like AJ for ex)
Ziggler, Bray, Del Rio, Ryder should be much bigger.
Punk and Dbry could've been crossover stars. Especially in this era of comic book nerds and shyt.
Miz should also be a much bigger star than he is. Dude has that heel swag down pat.
Beautiful Bobby Eatin
SWEEEEEEEEEETNESS!
Roman is over with the kids because the kids will like anyone made to look like the hero. Never mind the fact that he doesnt play that part half as well as a Cena. Kids are conditioned to like the good guy.
Ladies love him because he is good looking. Which I guess can make you a main event guy alone but he doesnt even rock the pretty boy swag as well as even a face Randy Orton used to and that turn actually failed.
Those two areas DO NOT help the product. The ratings are still down. He doesnt add one single viewer to RAW. None. Its proven in the ratings thread. At this point is he even top 5 in merch sales?
Reigns got pops in the Shield because he was the tank, the unknown component. He got the hot tag and cleaned house but so did everyone from Robert Gibson to Marty Janetty. It doesnt make them main event guys though and those guys were better workers than Reigns (who i am NOT saying is bad by any means just not an elite player).
Not loving Reigns doesnt make you a hater or having preconcieved notions. Its not like he hasnt been given a chance. He has and an overwhelming amount of the largest crowds disapprove. Its just what it is.
Roman has been booed and rejected the same way every arena nationwide for over 2 years straight. That's some troll shyt to assert that his boos are due to "the internet fan". In terms of match sequences, Roman was the 'hot tag' and the matches were built for him to look strong so his moves did lead to pops, but in general, all 3 shields guys were equally over to each other, and the Shield as a group is more over than Rollins, Reigns & Ambrose individually. Everyone knows the WWE top cities historically are NY, Philly, Boston, DC. (You can add Chicago, Detroit, Toronto if u want) That's the base of the long time fan, and the so called "smart fan reaction". Roman gets nuclear heat in those cities as Cena did a decade ago. Difference being, when Raw goes to Des Moines, Iowa, or to Orlando, Roman is booed just as hard. Early in 2016, Roman and Dean headlined different house show groups, and Dean house show group outdrew Roman's. No one can deny Cena drawing power, I can deny Roman Reigns drawing power though. Being booked as damn near invincable since 2014 should make you a star. If Roman is a star, so is Ambrose
Roman's been given chances and he's knocked them out of the park every, single, time. It's the smarks who won't give him a chance.
I don't think it matters how you get the pop, as long as you get the pop. It's easy to say all that, but Reigns still consistently gets large reactions today (cheers at that), so I don't think the Janetty/Gibson comparison holds in that regard
They help the product in the sense that they are the foundations of your casual audience. The kids are bringing their parents, and when the kids grow up the WWE becomes a childhood staple which makes the whole "Then, Now, Forever" tagline really mean something. The fact that almost everybody who grew up in the US from the 80's to today has watched wrestling at one point or another is worth a whole lot. And of course female viewers help, do you know how many casual fans Total Divas brings?
And I don't wanna get into a discussion about ratings because they need a whole lot of context. Only time ratings go up these days is when part timers are advertised to appear, that's not indicative of Roman's drawing power, that's indicative of WWE's popularity and the interest in their current main eventers as a whole. You say Roman isn't someone worth investing in and that he doesn't draw ratings, and yet Daniel Bryan never did either so are you saying he's someone not worth investing in?
I'll agree with you on this, guys booked in top babyface positions are gonna get over with kids regardless. But from a marketing perspective, there's a lot you can attach to Roman Reigns' brand that makes it easier to sell him to kids and a paying audience. The vest, the gloves, the cool taunts, the cool moves, the cool expressions.
LMAO wait you were the one saying I should have drafted Reigns in the fantasy draft right? You got him above Edge/Jericho/Foley now?
get off dude's jock he ain't on that level
Really good discussion. But I saw the writing on the wall with how they handled Punk. Dude was legitimately getting over outside of hardcore fans. Casual sports fans were talking about him and what he was doing and how he was making wrestling exciting again and unpredictable and they destroyed it all because it wasn't what they wanted. When you're offered the chance to print money and you shut it down, then there's no saving you. In fact, the juxtaposition of Punk's situation with Roman's situation is frightening.
