Isiah Thomas GOES OFF on this current NBA era

[Professor Emeritus]

Beatiful support & argument. But I'm going to disagree with the year 2008. Pierce won the matchup year imo

Game 1: The both played complete ass and Boston won through no fault of Pierce's. I'd say Pierce (2-14 for 4 points with 6 turnovers) was even worse than Lebron, but they were both so bad it doesn't matter.

Game 2: Pierce outplayed Lebron and won, though Lebron was being asked to do a lot more than Pierce was.

Game 3: Lebron didn't play great but still outplayed Pierce (who was just 3-8 for 14-3-5 with 4 turnovers and 5 fouls) in an easy Cleveland victory

Game 4: Lebron played okay, Pierce played awful and Cleveland won by double-digits again

Game 5: Both players finally played well, but I have a hard time seeing how Lebron didn't outplay Pierce. Lebron put up 35 to Pierce's 29, but Pierce only had 22
until a bunch of free throws in the last minute off of intentional fouls. Lebron was 3-7 for 10 points in the 4th, Pierce was 1-4 for 2 points until hitting 7-8 free throws off intentional fouls.

Game 6: Lebron completely dominated Pierce in this game on route to a Cleveland win, scoring 32 while Pierce had just 16 on 5-15 shooting. Lebron was 4-8 for 8 points in the 4th including 2-4 with an assist and a turnover in the last 5 minutes, Pierce was 1-3 for 4 points in the 4th with 2 huge turnovers in the final minute, both drawn by Lebron (a charge and a steal).

Game 7: This was the epic back-and-forth where Lebron had 45 and Pierce had 41. I think their personal matchup was dead-even statistically and in the eye test, but you could argue slight advantage Pierce because he got the win. Still, when it came to the 4th, Pierce was 2-3 with 6 points and 3 turnovers, while Lebron was 4-8 for 13 points and 0 turnovers, including two big threes that cut a 7-point lead to 3 and then taking the ball from Pierce with 2:20 left and getting down court for a dunk that cut the lead to 1.

I think it's obvious that Lebron was much better in games 3, 4, 5, and 6. Pierce had Game 2, and Games 1 and 7 are too close to call. Hard to see how Pierce outplayed Lebron for the series.

But the question was whether Pierce "hoed out" Lebron and got in his mind in the clutch. And Lebron clearly was the better player over the final five games of the series, and CLEARLY was the better player down the stretch in games 5, 6, and 7. And that's 23-year-old Lebron going up against 30-year-old Pierce. If Pierce was ever in his head, it lasted for exactly the first 2 games they ever played each other and never happened again.

Pierce was past his prime when lebron stsrted beating him in the playoffs

I agree that Pierce was a bit past his prime, but Pierce's prime was probably 2001-2007 before they ever started playing each other, so that's irrelevant to these claims. Pierce was still almost as good in 2012 as he was in 2008. When Lebron held him to 13-5-4 on 35% shooting in the ECSF 2010, was he past his prime? He would have won Finals MVP that year if Boston had gotten a rebound in Game 7. Did he suddenly become "past his prime" in 2011, when he averaged 20-6-3 on 50% shooting in the regular season and 21-5-5 on 46% shooting in the playoffs? And what would being slightly "past his prime" have to do with him being able to intimidate Lebron anyway?

And Lebron was only 23 and hadn't entered his prime yet when Pierce was beating him, so....

The point wasn't "what would prime Pierce do to prime Lebron". It was the claim that Pierce had "hoed out" Lebron repeatedly in the playoffs, got in his head, and caused Lebron to struggle in the clutch. And that NEVER happened. Lebron had epic moments and games in the clutch from their first series to the last, and ALWAYS outplayed Pierce in 4th quarters.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

He did that the year before too and what happened?

They lost.

And they were going to lose again until the scales got tipped in their favor

I love how "Kyrie, Love, and Varejao were all out the entire series, Shump could only use one arm, and Delly was in the hospital with exhaustion/dehydration" just turns into "they lost".

But have freaking Andrew Bogut miss 3 games, Draymond miss 1 for his own stupidity, and Curry/Iggy be a little less than 100%, and it's all "the scales got tipped in their favor."

The bottom line is he lost to a team who's best player was Dwight Howard

Lebron averaged 39-8-8 on 50% shooting and hit a huge game-winner in a series where the Cavs had no center who could guard Dwight, no mobile PF who could guard Rasaad Lewis, and no tall guards who could guard any of the big guards on Orlando (especially when they put Turkoglu at the point). Explain how the hell he was supposed to guard 5 guys when the Cavs were throwing that old stick Z on Howard, too-slow Varejao on Rashaad, and 6'3" Delonte trying to guard 6'6" Lee and 6'10" Turkoglu. Not to mention Turkoglu hitting a game-winner and Howard miraculously shooting a career-high 70% from the FT line for the series, including 9-11 in Orlando's 1-point and 2-point wins.


Hell, the Lakers had multiple more suitable players to guard Orlando at every one of those positions (Bogut/Gasol at center, Odom/Walton at the 4, and 6'8"Ariza/6'6"Bryant for tall guards) and they still needed huge threes by Fisher and big buckets by Gasol AND two huge bricked free throws to keep from going back home to Game 5 with the series tied 2-2.

(In the 4th quarter of Game 4 Lakers were down 3 with 2:29 left before Ariza hit a 3 to tie, then down 5 with 32 seconds left before Gasol scored, followed by two missed free throws by Howard and then a long 3 by Fisher with 5 seconds left to send the game into overtime. In overtime it was tied with 32 seconds left before another long three by Fisher was followed by two missed Turkoglu threes and 5-straight points by Gasol to ice it. They needed all that to keep that series from going 2-2. Bryant didn't score in the final 4:30 of regulation or final 3:30 of overtime in that game.)

He did that the year before too and what happened?

They lost.

And they were going to lose again until the scales got tipped in their favor

I love how "Kyrie, Love, and Varejao were all out the entire series, Shump could only use one arm, and Delly was in the hospital with exhaustion/dehydration" just turns into "they lost".

But have freaking Andrew Bogut miss 3 games, Draymond miss 1 for his own stupidity, and Curry/Iggy be a little less than 100%, and it's all "the scales got tipped in their favor."

Even LeBron defenders would tell you he's had problems in the clutch for most of his career.

You mean, other than:

* Hitting 8 game-winning shots in the playoffs (more than Kobe already in fewer attempts)
* Having the best elimination game scoring average in NBA history
* Having the best Game 7 scoring average.in NBA history
* Completely dominating Boston in the 4th of every clutch game like I showed in the previous post (Chicago, Detroit, Washington, Indiana, and Golden State knows how that feels too)
* Having some of the most epic clutch playoff games in NBA history including the 48 point game (25 straight in the 4th/double overtime) in the 2007 ECF Game 5, the 45 point Game 7 in the 2008 ECSF, the 40-18-9 Game 4 that turned the 2012 ECSF around, the 45-15-5 elimination Game 6 in the 2012 ECF, the 37-12-6 Game 7 in the 2013 Finals, and the 36-12-10-3-3 average in Game 5, Game 6, and Game 7 in the 2016 Finals, including back-to-back 41 point games followed by a 27-11-11 triple double with epic defense in all three.

3. Tom Chambers & Chris Mullin are ballers, just because they were White doesn't mean they weren't any good & when did either of them ever beat Detroit in a series? Maybe they had a good game against them, but so what? They would've been lucky to survive a 7 game series against Detroit from '87-90.

They weren't just White, they were relatively unathletic (compared to Lebron) and skinny too. Chambers was 6'10" 230lbs and Mullin was 6'6" 200lbs. And they weren't doing it from outside - Chambers didn't have a three at all and Mullin averaged less than 1 three a game in that era. Somehow Detroit couldn't beat the shyt out of them when they were balling out averaging 25-30 a game against Detroit in 7-8 consecutive games against them during the Bad Boy era, but turn it into a 7-game series and they "would've been lucky to survive"???

Just like 6'9", 225lb James Worthy was lucky to survive getting 22-4-4 on the way to Finals MVP in a 7-game series in 1988?
Just like that same Worthy was lucky to survive getting 26-7-4 in a 4-game series in 1989?
Just like 6'7" 220lb role player Jerome Kersey was lucky to survive getting 19 and 7 on 49% shooting in a 5-game series in 1990?

And that's just the three Finals matchups. Skinny-ass power forwards without half the size, strength, or skill of Lebron stayed putting up numbers against Detroit, but the guy with some of the greatest clutch performances in playoff history would have withered because....Bill Laimbeer?

7. Magic averaged 20 for his career on a team with the all-time leading scorer, one of the all-time greatest forwards, and tons of other offensive players who needed the ball. That's an accomplishment. That's not a low PPG for those circumstances. When Magic was asked to score, like in game 6 in 80, he hung 42 on Dr. J's Sixers in the deciding game, while playing CENTER. Oh yeah, plus he retired with the most assists in history, so there's the fact he's the greatest passer in the history of the sport as well.

And Kerr averaged nearly 9ppg on 52% three-point shooting for a team where Jordan and Pippen and Kukoc were dominated the shots. So can we agree that context matters? Kerr was a fantastic shooter to have as the #7 guy on the team.

9. I've never said the NBA wasn't watered down in the '90s, incomparison to the '80s. The '80s is the best era with the best teams, which is why Jordan couldn't win in the '80s, but at least he had all-time great teams like Bird's Celtics & Isiah's Pistons holding him down. After them, Jordan never lost again when he played a full season in the playoffs and NEVER in his career lost as a favorite in a series ever.

This has to be a joke.

The talent in the 1980s was trash as hell because pro basketball had hit an all-time low in popularity in the 1970s and coke was all over the place. Most of the talent was stuck on just two teams, and even then look at some of those Bucks and Rockets squads that gave the Celtics/Lakers trouble.

Remember, this was an era when freaking Kelly Tripucka was getting 27-7-6 for Detroit despite being "a step slow" and not having a three point shot.

[/QUOTE]


Adam Morrison would have dominated in the 1980s.




And Detroit didn't win a single title until AFTER expansion drafts began to dilute the league. There were two expansion teams in 1988 and two more in 1989.

So you can't disassociate Detroit from the diluted expansion league AND you can't pretend the 1980s were some epic era of basketball genetics.

1988: Lakers and Celtics were still the only two good teams in the NBA besides Detroit, and they were both getting old. The next best team in the East was the Hawks, starting Doc Rivers, Tree Rollins, Kevin Willis, and Randy Whittman next to Wilkins. The next best team in the West was Dallas, starting Mark Aguirre, Rolondo Blackman, Derek Harper, Sam Perkins, and James Donaldson. Those were NOT great rosters.

1989: In the East the #2 seed was the Knicks with Mark Jackson as Ewing's #2, but the 2nd best record was actually Cleveland with Brad Daughtery as the #1. Detroit beat a Bulls team where Pippen/Grant were only 23 each and not ready yet (both just 9ppg that series). In the West, Lakers were getting old and the only other good team was a Phoenix squad led by Tom Chambers. Again, you have nothing to brag about.

Jerome Kersey's TrailBlazers got destroyed by Detroit in 1990, so I don't even know what you're talking about

Detroit won 3 of those 4 games by 6 points, 3 points, and 2 points with Portland shooting ass from the free throw line missing 10+ freebies in all three games. And the series would have gone longer if a game-winning three by Petrovic hadn't been called off for being a fraction of a second after the buzzer. You have a strange definition of "destroyed".

The mythology of the 80s and 90s is the best part, Tom Chambers never got his jaw broke and routinely gave Oak 30

 

[TrebleMan]

I remember a discussion people on reddit were having about how the Pistons stopped Shaq, Kobe and the 2004 Lakers. People forget zone defense was around in 2001, but the complete elimination of handchecking wasn't until 2004-2005.

What no one has mentioned is the legalization of the zone. The zone was legalized in 2000-01, and it was designed to slow down Shaq. By the 2004 Finals the Pistons had perfected their defense, which combined elements of the zone and man-to-man defenses. It allowed them to hover between their man and Shaq, cutting off entry passes and quickly double-teaming if necessary. It allowed them to "form a fukking wall" around Shaq.

Meanwhile, the league had not yet opened up the perimeter offense for Kobe. The Pistons could hand check him and block him and stop him from penetrating. And if he made it to the basket, Ben Wallace could hang in the paint because they were not strictly enforcing the 3-second illegal defense rule, and Shaq usually stood in the paint anyway.

All that changed the next year, because they needed to restore the balance between offense and defense. But the rules that hurt Shaq remained in place. It's only the rules that helped Kobe, Nash, Nowitzki, and Wade that restored the balance of offense and defense. It's no accident that the best big men in the game today -- James and Durant -- choose to play small forward.

NBA.com - NBA Rules History

Technically, Kobe Bryant was involved in a rule change.

From Mark Cuban (around 2009):

"So a few years ago, Im watching the Pistons beat the Lakers in the Finals. I’m seeing Larry Brown’s Pistons fully take advantage of the rules. It was impossible to stay in front of Kobe. He could get anywhere he wanted on the court. The Pistons knew it as well. So every time he tried to get to the basket, they would body up and bump him. The officials did just as they were supposed to. Since Kobe had the advantage on the defender, they didn’t call a foul. However that little bump slowed Kobe down just enough that it gave Ben Wallace a split second more to on a pre rotation to the Paint, to be in a better position to defend the basket. Kobe still scored, but not quite as often as he may have otherwise. "

...

"After the finals, I sat down with the league and discussed with them the difference between player and team advantage. The discussion lead to changing the rules so that perimeter contact was called far more often."

If It’s Not Broke, Doesn’t Mean It’s Optimal. Even in the NBA | blog maverick

(The blog also mentioned how Cuban is responsible for bringing the change to the "Clear Path Foul")

And then:

"The NBA eliminated all forms of hand-checking before the 2004-2005 season. The rule was intended to give offensive players more freedom, but has given offensive players an unfair advantage. It’s virtually impossible to keep perimeter players out of the paint."

And we know what happened shortly afterward. Scoring absolutely blew up. Suddenly we had a few guys scoring 30 ppg in one season, we had teams scoring in bunches (The Suns), we saw a man utterly destroy the Western champions in the Finals (Setting a record for Finals FTAs) and a dude scored 81 points in a single game.

To say that today's players wouldn't be great in the 80's/90's is a stretch. However, they wouldn't be going off the way they are today either. Scoring league-wide has increased from 2004-2005 on.

 

[Versa]

You can just look at Isiah's face in the beginning and tell he about to go in with that fukking smirk on his face like

 

[The Amerikkkan Idol]

The mythology of the 80s and 90s is the best part, Tom Chambers never got his jaw broke and routinely gave Oak 30

Tom Chambers was good. I don't know why y'all dissin Tom Chambers.

You can't be this dumb.

I love the magic word "stat filler" that somehow just explains away every performance possible.

When did Pierce EVER get in Lebron's head in the clutch? When did Pierce EVER outplay Lebron down the stretch in a big game? Name ONCE.



Let's have the definitive "Paul Pierce never, ever hoed out Lebron James" post.

Lebron was 17-13 over Pierce in the playoffs, averaging 29-8-5-2-1 on 47% shooting to Pierce's 17-5-3-1-0 on 39% shooting.

Lebron lost the first two series when he was playing 1-on-4 against Boston's Big 4, then won the next three when they had real squads going at each other. He not only outplayed Pierce individually every time, he almost always balled out in the clutch games of every series, especially in the 4th, and made huge shots.

So tell me, which series did Paul Pierce get in Lebron's head?


2008: Lebron goes up against the Pierce-Garnett-Allen-Rondo Celtics with Delonte West as his #1 sidekick.

Lebron 27-6-8 on 36% with 15 steals and 9 blocks to Pierce 20-11-3 on 40% with 6 steals and 7 blocks

You want to talk clutch situations?

35-3-5 with 10 in the 4th in Game 5 in Boston (lose by 7, Pierce only had 22 until intentional fouls late in the game)
32-12-6 with 8 in the 4th in Game 6 in Cleveland (win 74-69, Pierce only had 16 on 5-15 shooting)
45-5-6 with 13 in the 4th in Game 7 in Boston (lose by 5, Pierce had 41 but didn't hit a shot in the last 6 minutes, win largely due to P.J. Brown hitting 3 straight jumpers late in the 4th).



After the game when Boston was celebrating in the locker room, Paul Pierce was watching highlights of Lebron and saying, "That's a baaad man."

How the hell was Pierce "in Lebron's head in clutch situations" when Lebron was pouring it in over the last three games, especially the 4th, and outplaying Pierce in the clutch in every one? And Lebron was only 23 while Pierce was 30 in his prime.



2010: Lebron goes up against the Pierce-Garnett-Allen-Rondo Celtics again with Mo Williams as his #1 sidekick

Lebron 27-9-7 on 45% with 13 steals and 8 blocks to Pierce 13-5-4 on 35% with 7 steals and 1 block

Lebron dominated Pierce, but literally no one on the Cavs could guard Rondo (21-6-12 on 54% shooting), Garnett (19-8-2 on 52% shooting), or Ray Allen (16-3-2 on 43% shooting) and no one on the Cavs besides Lebron scored more than 13ppg.

The ONLY game in which Pierce went off at all was Game 5, when Mike Brown switched Lebron onto Rondo in the 1st half because Rondo had destroyed them for 29-18-13 in the previous game. Lebron held Rondo to zero points in the 1st half, but without Lebron on him Pierce finally went off for 14 in the half. Brown switched Lebron back onto Pierce in the 3rd quarter, Lebron held Pierce to 3 for the quarter but Rondo went off for 12 with Mo/Delonte back on him and the game was over in a blowout before the 4th started.

This game is notable because it was the only time in their first 15 playoff matchups that Pierce would outscore Lebron, and only because Lebron defended someone else in the 1st half.

Over their 30-game playoff career, Pierce would only outscore Lebron a total of twice.

In Game 6, Lebron went off against for 27-19-10 (10 in the 4th) and held Pierce to 13-3-5 on 4-13 shooting (didn't score in the final 8 minutes), but Rondo and Garnett went off and the Celtics won.



2011: For the first time, Lebron has a squad, with Lebron-Wade-Bosh up against Pierce-Allen-Garnett-Rondo

Lebron: 28-8-4 on 47% with 9 steals and 9 blocks to Pierce 20-6-3 on 46% with 4 steals and 2 blocks

The Heat dominate the Celtics in just 5.

Only games that were close in the 4th were 4 and 5.

Game 4: Lebron 35-14-3 to Pierce 27-8-3. Boston up 4 going into the 4th but Miami outscores them 17-13 in the 4th. Lebron has 11 of Miami's last 13 points, including a huge 3 to tie the game with 2 minutes left and a bucket to put them ahead with 48 seconds left before Pierce tied it up 7 seconds later. Pierce misses the potential game-winner at the buzzer with Lebron on him. In overtime Lebron hits a jumper and finds Bosh at the rim to give Miami a 4-point lead right away and it never gets closer than that.

Game 5: In the elimination game, Lebron 33-7-4 to just 12-3-4 for Pierce. Boston up 2 going into the 4th, but Lebron has 13 in the final quarter. With the score tied 87-87 with 2:10 left, Lebron scores the final 10 points to give Miami a 97-87 win, including two threes followed by a steal and dunk with 30 seconds left to seal the game.

Who is in whose head?



2012: Bosh hurt, so Lebron bringing Wade-Chalmers-Battier and either Haslem, Turiaf, or Anthony alternatively starting at center against Boston's Big 4

Lebron 34-11-4 on 53% with 8 steals and 9 blocks to Pierce 18-4-2 on 34% with 10 steals and 5 blocks.

Game 6: With Boston up 3 games to 2 and the game in Boston, Lebron puts together one of the most cold-blooded games ever, hitting 45-15-5 on 19-26 shooting to Pierce's 9-3-3 on 4-18 shooting.

Outscored Pierce with 45 on 19-26 to 9 on 4-18?

Boston's soul is torn out so effectively that Game 7 feels like a foregone conclusion

Game 7: Lebron's 31-12-2 again outdoes Pierce's 19-4-2. The game is actually tied going into the 4th, but Lebron has 11 in the 4th as Miami outscores Boston 28-15 and wins going away. A stretch from 9:07 to 3:58 when Lebron accounts to 15 straight points (scores 10 on 4-6 shooting and gives 2 assists for 5 more) turns a 1-point deficit into a 7-point lead and basically decides the game, which gets no closer the rest of the way.



2014: Last hurrah for Lebron-Wade-Bosh against old man's Pierce-Garnett-Joe Johnson-Deron Williams-Shaun Livingston

Lebron 30-6-4 on 57% with 6 steals and 3 blocks to Pierce's 14-5-1 on 47% with 4 steals and 0 blocks.

Game 4: With the Nets trying to even the series at home, Lebron goes for a sick 49-6-2 on 16-24 shooting, including 9 in the 4th, to Pierce's 16-7-2. Brooklyn has their last lead at 90-89 when Lebron hits a three with 4:07 followed by another shot with 2:50 left. After a three by Bosh, Ray seals the game with free throws. Pierce doesn't score in the final 4 minutes.

Game 5: Lebron finishes Pierce off for good with 29-9-5 to Pierce's 19-2-2. Brooklyn has a 9-point lead going into the 4th, but Lebron scores 14 in the 4th to help Miami outscore them 30-19 and take the game by 2. Brooklyn actually still had an 91-83 lead with 2:50 left, but Miami goes on a 13-3 run to end the game, including a huge three by Lebron with 2:48 left to cut the lead to 5, two clutch free throws with 1:12 left to cut the lead to 1, and a final free throw with 10 seconds left to seal it. Lebron knocks the ball away from Pierce and then suffocates Joe Johnson on the Nets' final possession and they don't even get a shot off.


Game 6 2008, Game 4 2011, Game 5 2011, Game 6 2012, Game 7 2012, Game 4 2014, and Game 5 2014 were all huge clutch games where Lebron far outplayed Pierce, dominated in the 4th, and won the game.

Game 5 2008, Game 7 2008, and Game 6 2010 were the other clutch games where Lebron outplayed Pierce, but his team fell short against a much better crew.

Game 5 2010 was the only clutch game in their entire careers (out of 11) where Pierce outplayed Lebron, and only because Mike Brown had Lebron guarding Rondo instead.


In the 9 of those 11 games where both players were even playing in the fourth, Lebron balled out for 8 to 14 points and easily outscored Pierce in every. single. one.


Your "Pierce hoed Lebron" narrative is over.

I aint reading all that.

I watched the games.. I saw LeBron dribbling the ball off his foot against Boston, which is why he was criticized and ended up hoeing out and going to Miami

I saw him come up short against Orlando

I saw him bytch out in 4 straight 4th quarters against Dallas in 2011.

Not only did I see it. THE ENTIRE WORLD SAW IT.

You can find whatever stats you want, the whole world was calling him a choker after those incidents because we saw with our own two eyes what happened.

Hell, I saw him play like a bytch for the first half of the Finals last year when Shawn Livingston and Andre Igoudala were dominating

 

[The Amerikkkan Idol]

I love how "Kyrie, Love, and Varejao were all out the entire series, Shump could only use one arm, and Delly was in the hospital with exhaustion/dehydration" just turns into "they lost".

But have freaking Andrew Bogut miss 3 games, Draymond miss 1 for his own stupidity, and Curry/Iggy be a little less than 100%, and it's all "the scales got tipped in their favor."





Lebron averaged 39-8-8 on 50% shooting and hit a huge game-winner in a series where the Cavs had no center who could guard Dwight, no mobile PF who could guard Rasaad Lewis, and no tall guards who could guard any of the big guards on Orlando (especially when they put Turkoglu at the point). Explain how the hell he was supposed to guard 5 guys when the Cavs were throwing that old stick Z on Howard, too-slow Varejao on Rashaad, and 6'3" Delonte trying to guard 6'6" Lee and 6'10" Turkoglu. Not to mention Turkoglu hitting a game-winner and Howard miraculously shooting a career-high 70% from the FT line for the series, including 9-11 in Orlando's 1-point and 2-point wins.


Hell, the Lakers had multiple more suitable players to guard Orlando at every one of those positions (Bogut/Gasol at center, Odom/Walton at the 4, and 6'8"Ariza/6'6"Bryant for tall guards) and they still needed huge threes by Fisher and big buckets by Gasol AND two huge bricked free throws to keep from going back home to Game 5 with the series tied 2-2.

(In the 4th quarter of Game 4 Lakers were down 3 with 2:29 left before Ariza hit a 3 to tie, then down 5 with 32 seconds left before Gasol scored, followed by two missed free throws by Howard and then a long 3 by Fisher with 5 seconds left to send the game into overtime. In overtime it was tied with 32 seconds left before another long three by Fisher was followed by two missed Turkoglu threes and 5-straight points by Gasol to ice it. They needed all that to keep that series from going 2-2. Bryant didn't score in the final 4:30 of regulation or final 3:30 of overtime in that game.)





I love how "Kyrie, Love, and Varejao were all out the entire series, Shump could only use one arm, and Delly was in the hospital with exhaustion/dehydration" just turns into "they lost".

But have freaking Andrew Bogut miss 3 games, Draymond miss 1 for his own stupidity, and Curry/Iggy be a little less than 100%, and it's all "the scales got tipped in their favor."





You mean, other than:

* Hitting 8 game-winning shots in the playoffs (more than Kobe already in fewer attempts)
* Having the best elimination game scoring average in NBA history
* Having the best Game 7 scoring average.in NBA history
* Completely dominating Boston in the 4th of every clutch game like I showed in the previous post (Chicago, Detroit, Washington, Indiana, and Golden State knows how that feels too)
* Having some of the most epic clutch playoff games in NBA history including the 48 point game (25 straight in the 4th/double overtime) in the 2007 ECF Game 5, the 45 point Game 7 in the 2008 ECSF, the 40-18-9 Game 4 that turned the 2012 ECSF around, the 45-15-5 elimination Game 6 in the 2012 ECF, the 37-12-6 Game 7 in the 2013 Finals, and the 36-12-10-3-3 average in Game 5, Game 6, and Game 7 in the 2016 Finals, including back-to-back 41 point games followed by a 27-11-11 triple double with epic defense in all three.






They weren't just White, they were relatively unathletic (compared to Lebron) and skinny too. Chambers was 6'10" 230lbs and Mullin was 6'6" 200lbs. And they weren't doing it from outside - Chambers didn't have a three at all and Mullin averaged less than 1 three a game in that era. Somehow Detroit couldn't beat the shyt out of them when they were balling out averaging 25-30 a game against Detroit in 7-8 consecutive games against them during the Bad Boy era, but turn it into a 7-game series and they "would've been lucky to survive"???

Just like 6'9", 225lb James Worthy was lucky to survive getting 22-4-4 on the way to Finals MVP in a 7-game series in 1988?
Just like that same Worthy was lucky to survive getting 26-7-4 in a 4-game series in 1989?
Just like 6'7" 220lb role player Jerome Kersey was lucky to survive getting 19 and 7 on 49% shooting in a 5-game series in 1990?

And that's just the three Finals matchups. Skinny-ass power forwards without half the size, strength, or skill of Lebron stayed putting up numbers against Detroit, but the guy with some of the greatest clutch performances in playoff history would have withered because....Bill Laimbeer?






And Kerr averaged nearly 9ppg on 52% three-point shooting for a team where Jordan and Pippen and Kukoc were dominated the shots. So can we agree that context matters? Kerr was a fantastic shooter to have as the #7 guy on the team.





This has to be a joke.

The talent in the 1980s was trash as hell because pro basketball had hit an all-time low in popularity in the 1970s and coke was all over the place. Most of the talent was stuck on just two teams, and even then look at some of those Bucks and Rockets squads that gave the Celtics/Lakers trouble.

Remember, this was an era when freaking Kelly Tripucka was getting 27-7-6 for Detroit despite being "a step slow" and not having a three point shot.

Adam Morrison would have dominated in the 1980s.




And Detroit didn't win a single title until AFTER expansion drafts began to dilute the league. There were two expansion teams in 1988 and two more in 1989.

So you can't disassociate Detroit from the diluted expansion league AND you can't pretend the 1980s were some epic era of basketball genetics.

1988: Lakers and Celtics were still the only two good teams in the NBA besides Detroit, and they were both getting old. The next best team in the East was the Hawks, starting Doc Rivers, Tree Rollins, Kevin Willis, and Randy Whittman next to Wilkins. The next best team in the West was Dallas, starting Mark Aguirre, Rolondo Blackman, Derek Harper, Sam Perkins, and James Donaldson. Those were NOT great rosters.

1989: In the East the #2 seed was the Knicks with Mark Jackson as Ewing's #2, but the 2nd best record was actually Cleveland with Brad Daughtery as the #1. Detroit beat a Bulls team where Pippen/Grant were only 23 each and not ready yet (both just 9ppg that series). In the West, Lakers were getting old and the only other good team was a Phoenix squad led by Tom Chambers. Again, you have nothing to brag about.






Detroit won 3 of those 4 games by 6 points, 3 points, and 2 points with Portland shooting ass from the free throw line missing 10+ freebies in all three games. And the series would have gone longer if a game-winning three by Petrovic hadn't been called off for being a fraction of a second after the buzzer. You have a strange definition of "destroyed".






[/QUOTE]

Whew, you young nikkaz is on here writing soliloquies on here. Not gonna lie, could not read all of that at this hour

I'll try to make this quick before I got to bed. I gotta work tomorrow

1. There's no reason the best player in the world should lose a series to a team where Dwight Howard is the best player, especially if his team is favored, which they were.

2. No, the refs handed the Cavs games 5 & 6 with bullshyt calls and an ejection in the case of Draymond. The series was 3-1 for a reason, you know? Because the Warriors were kinda dominating it until "outside forces" got involved.

3. We all gave LeBron credit for perserverance last year when they lost without Love & Kyrie. Most of us didn't even count it against him

4. Tom Chambers was a 6'10 All-Star who competed in Dunk Contests. He was not unathletic.

5. Steve Kerr was a bench player who was a situational player. He averaged 6pts a game for his CAREER and never made an All-Star team. He didn't even used to play for games when he was with the Bulls. I don't know why you guys keep bring him up like he was integral to the Bulls' success. He wasn't even on the first 3 Bulls championships, on the otherhand Magic Johnson is the GOAT PG, and could've averaged 30pts a game if he wanted to, but perferred to pass.

Why are you comparing Magic and Kerr again?

6. Detroit were never going to lose to Portland. Had you been alive when the series was happening, then you would know that

7. Detroit fought brutal wars against Bird's Cetlics, Jordan's Bulls, and Magic's Lakers. They were one of the greatest teams of all-time. Ask Magic, Bird, Jordan, or anybody who was there. You looking something up on Basketball Reference isn't the same as my experience sitting their watching these games or the people who actually played in these games like you know . . ISIAH THOMAS telling you the real. Simple as that.

You young nikkaz have the internet access and that's great. But I have internet access AND I was actually there to experience all this shyt when it happened, so your 2nd hand knowledge will never make up for the experience that the people who were there had or us who watched it have

 

[Malta]

Tom Chambers was good. I don't know why y'all dissin Tom Chambers.

Who said Tom Chambers wasn't good? What exactly prevented him from getting his jaw broke going against Oakley though?

 

[The_Third_Man]

the funny thing when players weren't shooting as well as they're now, the media, fans and analysts weren't saying "it's because the defense was too good". They said "it's because players nowadays lack the fundamentals! this generation only care about fancy dribbling and dunking"

but now since shooting got better, they say nobody play D anymore?!

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Tom Chambers was good. I don't know why y'all dissin Tom Chambers.

Because you keep claiming his skinny butt was able to do things against Detroit that Lebron somehow wouldn't be able to do.

I aint reading all that.

Whew, you young nikkaz is on here writing soliloquies on here. Not gonna lie, could not read all of that at this hour...

You young nikkaz have the internet access and that's great. But I have internet access AND I was actually there to experience all this shyt when it happened, so your 2nd hand knowledge will never make up for the experience that the people who were there had or us who watched it have

Why would I get in an internet argument with someone who can't or won't read?

But to head off your attempt to play the age game, you lost. I was a huge Blazer fan before the Blazers even got good. I saw every game of that 1990 Finals. We definitely had a chance when we split the games in Detroit and got home court advantage. Clyde and Jerome were unstoppable in game 4 and should have evened the series, but they missed 6 freebies between them and then Drazen hit a three at the buzzer that was a fraction late that would have tied it. And then Game 5 we shot ass from the line again with even Porter missing three, and still only lost by two.

That's why you can't trust your subjective memory, because different people see and remember shyt different. shyt goes down and ten people remember ten things differently. Hell, there are tens of thousands of people who remember seeing shyt that never even happened, like Wilt's 100 game on TV or thousands of Muslims celebrating in Jersey City on 9/11. That's why you have to deal with facts.

I gave facts that roasted your bs. Saying Pierce was in Lebron's head in the clutch when Lebron absolutely dominated him in EVERY clutch fourth quarter, especially down the stretch, is ignorant. If you ain't gonna read your own destruction, stay ignorant, I already got daps and rep for days from the people who wanted to learn.

 

[The Amerikkkan Idol]

Because you keep claiming his skinny ass was able to do things against Detroit that Lebron somehow wouldn't be able to do.









Why would I get in an internet argument with someone who can't or won't read?

But to head off your idiot attempt to play the age game, you lost. I was a huge Blazer fan before the Blazers even got good. I saw every game of that 1990 Finals. We definitely had a chance when we split the games in Detroit and got home court advantage. Clyde and Jerome were unstoppable in game 4 and should have evened the series, but they missed 6 freebies between them and then Drazen hit a three at the buzzer that was a fraction late that would have tied it. And then Game 5 we shot ass from the line again with even Porter missing three, and still only lost by two.

That's why you can't trust your subjective memory, because different people see and remember shyt different. shyt goes down and ten people remember ten things differently. Hell, there are tens of thousands of people who remember seeing shyt that never even happened, like Wilt's 100 game on TV or thousands of Muslims celebrating in Jersey City on 9/11. That's why you have to deal with facts.

I gave facts that roasted your dumbass bullshyt. Saying Pierce was in Lebron's head in the clutch when Lebron absolutely dominated him in EVERY clutch fourth quarter, especially down the stretch, is some ignorant shyt. If you ain't gonna read your own destruction, stay ignorant, I already got daps and rep for days from the people who wanted to learn.

nikka, you the one typing overly emotional soliloquies on the internet that are like 10,000 words and shyt, not me. That alone is the greatest self-ether there is

You didn't roast me, you roasted yourself.

The whole world saw what I saw and it was pretty close to universally accepted by damn near every legendary player that LeBron is not a great clutch shooter and never has been

LeBron Has Worst Game Winning-Tying Shot FG% in NBA | BSO

LeBron James isn't a clutch shooter, but does it matter? - Sportsnaut.com

Eye-popping stat proves LeBron James is half as clutch as Kobe Bryant | FOX Sports

Magic cracks jokes over LeBron's playoff woes

And once again Portland was NEVER gonna beat Detroit anymore than they were gonna be Jordan's Bulls in '92.

 

[Notorious 1 E.Y.E.]

all these rules that benefit the offence and scoring is still historically down

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Magic cracks jokes over LeBron's playoff woes

The only thing Magic clowned Lebron for was not winning a title yet, and now he's won three. What did you dumb ass think you were going to prove by posting that?

The whole world saw what I saw and it was pretty close to universally accepted by damn near every legendary player that LeBron is not a great clutch shooter and never has been

LeBron Has Worst Game Winning-Tying Shot FG% in NBA | BSO

LeBron James isn't a clutch shooter, but does it matter? - Sportsnaut.com

Eye-popping stat proves LeBron James is half as clutch as Kobe Bryant | FOX Sports

You say you know how to use the internet, and yet you post the same regular-season stat three different times in three different links?

How the hell you going to talk about clutch and then post some random-ass regular-season stat that completely ignores the playoffs?

And then it has to go with struggle-criteria like randomly cutting off at 5 seconds and only counting one 10-year stretch too.
Not to mention that we're ignoring final possession shots, clutch time in final 5 minute shots, 4th quarter scoring, or elmination games/Game 7's.

How much of a struggle argument do you have when you went searching for links and they ALL have the same random-ass arbitrary stat?

LeBron is measurably as clutch as Michael Jordan

LeBron May Be The Most Clutch Playoff Shooter Of His Generation

New Graphic Says LeBron James Is NBA's Most Clutch Player Since 2001 | Cavaliers Nation

Picking the most clutch in NBA playoffs

http://www.complex.com/sports/2015/05/lebron-james-kobe-bryant-clutch-playoffs

TrevorBlackman's Blog :: Why LeBron James will go down as better than Kobe Bryant

A Statistical Analysis Of Clutch NBA Shooters Since 2000

LeBron James is Mr. Clutch in elimination games

LBJ Most Clutch Player Since Debut

LeBron James in Game 7s is a scary, scary sight

NBA Game Winning Shots -- leading players

On LeBron James in the Clutch | Miami Heat

LeBron James buzzer-beater ramps up comparisons to Michael Jordan

LeBron James, the Clutch Gene and Another Championship Quest with the Heat

LeBron James and the Question of Clutch

The All-Clutch Team: Best (and worst) late-game performers

Jordan vs LeBron vs Kobe: Who's Most Clutch in the Playoffs?

Haberstroh: Kobe or LeBron better in cluch?

Skip Bayless Has Surgery To Remove LeBron’s Clutch 4th Quarter From His Memory



Here were the numbers for regular season and playoff combined. This was a comparison between Lebron and "clutch" Kobe


Standard criteria - less than 24 seconds left, shot to tie or lead.

Lebron's made 40 in 13 years, Kobe's made 55 in 20 years. Lebron's rate and %'s are better.



Okay, you don't like that one....how about shot to win with just 5 seconds or less left?

Lebron has 12 in 13 years, Kobe has 18 in 20 years. Lebron's rate and % still slightly better.



Maybe last 2 seconds is better for you?

Lebron has 10 in 13 years, Kobe has 11 in 20 years. Lebron's rate and % much better



Okay, maybe final second...

Lebron has 9 of those in 13 years, Kobe has 10 in 20 years. That's not even close, Lebron is destroying Kobe's pace and his % is better too.



Any way you cut it, Lebron hits game-winners at a higher rate and with a better % than Kobe ever did.




And you don't even want to rework those numbers for the playoffs, because Lebron's numbers kick Kobe's ass there.

Final 24 seconds to lead to tie, Lebron is already up 8 to 7 in far fewer seasons and attempts (8-23 now compared to Kobe's 7-28).

Final 5 seconds and to win, Lebron is up 5 to 2. Lebron 5-12, Kobe 2-12.

4 to 1 in final second. Lebron 4-7, Kobe 1-4.

 

[Gangstar8]

Lebron james is clutch now according to thecoli

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Lebron james is clutch now according to thecoli

And according to SBNation, FiveThirtyEight, ESPN, Sports Illustrated, Chicago Sun-Times, Complex Sports, Trevor Blackman, Liberty Ballers, 247Sports, Bleacher Report, Sporting News, CBS Sports, 82Games, CavsNation, The Kicker, The Sports Quotient, and Basketball Reference.



Reality keeps striking over and over

 

[NormanConnors]

Facts dropped by Smitty and Zeke