Isiah Thomas GOES OFF on this current NBA era

[Originalman]

For Handchecking I was meaning more for guards. For big men it doesn't really matter that much cause they are sort of allowed to touch each other. For guards removing handchecking was pretty much the death of perimeter defense because point guards are typically the smallest, fastest, most athletic players on the court and once you make a rule that says you can't touch that person then it becomes impossible to guard them, it becomes impossible to play real defense really since now every single point guard can at worst become a drive and kick guy, since he can now run into the lane at will and if you touch him, it's a foul and they take it out of bounds to do it again or it;s a foul and he is shooting freethrows. This is how you end up with players like Derrick Rose who won an MVP without being able to ever hit 5 jumpshots in a row...

I meant "stretch" 4 in the derogatory term of a "big" who doesn't play with much physicality on either end of the floor. And the Horry reference is a little misleading since he played with Keem, Shaq, and Timmy. It's not really hard to be a stretch 4 even back then when you are playing next to 3 of the greatest big men ever, who are going to command a double team virtually every single play, so you just kind of get to spot up wherever and wait for the ball to come to you. Versus now where you can legit play Channing Fry with Tristan Thompson, and not really worry about Fry NOT getting some good looks because the rules dictate you can't really interfere with his shot. Swap out Keem Shaq and Timmy with Koncack Wennington and Cartwright and I have serious doubts about how effective that strategy of a stretch 4 becomes in the 90's. Actually we know it's not really an effective strategy because teams who didn't have Keem Shaq and Timmy weren't doing it that much

True even then as you said the 4 man was more a 18 ft knock down shooter for the great center off the double. AC Green, Charles Oakley and Thorpe could knock down thosw open shots.

Even teams without great shooters had their PFs knock down the 15 to 18 footer to help spread the floor for their wing players or their centers. From buck willaims, Horace Grant and to Sam Perkins (who would become one of the first stretch 4s).

 

[Malta]

For Handchecking I was meaning more for guards. For big men it doesn't really matter that much cause they are sort of allowed to touch each other. For guards removing handchecking was pretty much the death of perimeter defense because point guards are typically the smallest, fastest, most athletic players on the court and once you make a rule that says you can't touch that person then it becomes impossible to guard them, it becomes impossible to play real defense really since now every single point guard can at worst become a drive and kick guy, since he can now run into the lane at will and if you touch him, it's a foul and they take it out of bounds to do it again or it;s a foul and he is shooting freethrows. This is how you end up with players like Derrick Rose who won an MVP without being able to ever hit 5 jumpshots in a row...

I meant "stretch" 4 in the derogatory term of a "big" who doesn't play with much physicality on either end of the floor. And the Horry reference is a little misleading since he played with Keem, Shaq, and Timmy. It's not really hard to be a stretch 4 even back then when you are playing next to 3 of the greatest big men ever, who are going to command a double team virtually every single play, so you just kind of get to spot up wherever and wait for the ball to come to you. Versus now where you can legit play Channing Fry with Tristan Thompson, and not really worry about Fry NOT getting some good looks because the rules dictate you can't really interfere with his shot. Swap out Keem Shaq and Timmy with Koncack Wennington and Cartwright and I have serious doubts about how effective that strategy of a stretch 4 becomes in the 90's. Actually we know it's not really an effective strategy because teams who didn't have Keem Shaq and Timmy weren't doing it that much

Here's the problem with the handchecking argument though, there are guys who played with it, and without it, and we can look at their numbers. For example, Allen Iverson's best shooting season was with handchecking, he also won an MVP with it still around, not to say Rose is on his level but he was tiny and a bent arm did nothing with him because he's quick. The handchecking everyone is always referencing is when the NBA removed it completely before the start of the 04-05 season, that is the lightning rod everyone is always talking about, but we can just look at dudes numbers like Marbury, Iverson, B. Davis Francis pre-and post rule.

You can play Frye with Thompson because they're playing with LeBron, a player that commands just as much attention as Duncan, Shaq and Hakeem. Today, most of these PGs that are hard to defend play with a stretch 4, because it creates a situation where you have to choose the lesser of two evils. Do you go over and hard trap the PG and potentially leave the stretch 4 open for the three, do you switch on the pick and have your big guard some dude who is looking to dance all over him or have the stretch 4 roll to the rim. Do you go under the screen and risk the PG pulling up for a three? How many stretch bigs in the past were playing with drive and kick players? How many teams really tried to spread the floor like that other than Don Nelson experiments, everyone tried the same shyt. How much more effective do you think Gary Payton would have been if Kemp had been playing the 5, and he had someone like Ryan Anderson at the 4 instead the Kemp/Johnson Kemp/Perkins frontcourts he had? The Jazz probably would have a better shot against the Bulls with a floor spacer to give Karl more room rather than Ostertag, Carr and Foster.

Teams are being built with space in mind now because of the zone, it's a design philosophy and I bet teams like the Sixers, Nuggets and Wolves with young bigs will put floor spacers at the 4 next to their guys.

 

[ISO]

How old are you? You act like 6 years ago is ancient

In the context of the NBA a lot changes in just 3-4 seasons

You know this

"It's a copy cat league" *Mark Jackson voice

 

[street heat]

Yes they are better shooters, but they get more shots because the rules were relaxed also. At one time it was against the rules to have more than 3 people stand outside the 3 point line. It was called illegal offense, but the rule was relaxed in the early 90s as
more teams like the suns and rockets began to spread out teams with 4 three point shooters and a post player.

and you think they should go back to that ?

 

[Originalman]

Another thing that bothers me about todays nba is the whole "feel for contact"...where players are just trying to get somebody to reach or touch them so they can flail they arms and get freethrows...

Kawhi Leonard my favorite player but last night he pulled this hoe ass shyt and I almost stopped watching the game...dude came off a screen with derozan trailing him...felt derozan arm against his arm...and derozan wasn't even reaching it was just natural body contact between a guy trying to go under a screen...man Kawhi SHOT PUT the ball at the rim ...he just fukking palmed the ball with one hand and launched it...and it was no reason to...because Derozan wasn't doing anything to keep him from going through a real shot...and that shyt missed everything...shyt looked like a shanked field goal...but...he got 3 freethrows out of it...and i don't think that is real basketball...to just feel a guy touching you, so you launch the ball with one hand into the 3rd row...so you can get 3 freethrows...and of course it happened in the 80's and 90's but not NEARLY as much as it does now...Harden has legit built a superstar game around doing this...

True man dudes did it in the 90s with the worst being Reggie Miller.....but now a days even the biggest bench warming scrubs do that shyt.

 

[MikelArteta]

sick of thes old heads back in my day

jeff ruland was averaging 22 points and 12 boards back in the 80s

 

[Originalman]

and you think they should go back to that ?

Where did I say they need to go back to that?

 

[Swirv]

I want you to watch Bernard King 60 point game and tell me if it isn't the same thing if not worse

Looks like it was rigged. Nets just putting their hands in the air with no real defense.

 

[NYC Rebel]

Looks like it was rigged. Nets just putting their hands in the air with no real defense.

80s defense

 

[Originalman]

Here's the problem with the handchecking argument though, there are guys who played with it, and without it, and we can look at their numbers. For example, Allen Iverson's best shooting season was with handchecking, he also won an MVP with it still around, not to say Rose is on his level but he was tiny and a bent arm did nothing with him because he's quick. The handchecking everyone is always referencing is when the NBA removed it completely before the start of the 04-05 season, that is the lightning rod everyone is always talking about, but we can just look at dudes numbers like Marbury, Iverson, B. Davis Francis pre-and post rule.

You can play Frye with Thompson because they're playing with LeBron, a player that commands just as much attention as Duncan, Shaq and Hakeem. Today, most of these PGs that are hard to defend play with a stretch 4, because it creates a situation where you have to choose the lesser of two evils. Do you go over and hard trap the PG and potentially leave the stretch 4 open for the three, do you switch on the pick and have your big guard some dude who is looking to dance all over him or have the stretch 4 roll to the rim. Do you go under the screen and risk the PG pulling up for a three? How many stretch bigs in the past were playing with drive and kick players? How many teams really tried to spread the floor like that other than Don Nelson experiments, everyone tried the same shyt. How much more effective do you think Gary Payton would have been if Kemp had been playing the 5, and he had someone like Ryan Anderson at the 4 instead the Kemp/Johnson Kemp/Perkins frontcourts he had? The Jazz probably would have a better shot against the Bulls with a floor spacer to give Karl more room rather than Ostertag, Carr and Foster.

Teams are being built with space in mind now because of the zone, it's a design philosophy and I bet teams like the Sixers, Nuggets and Wolves with young bigs will put floor spacers at the 4 next to their guys.

Great points but also remember that perkins was a floor spacer (stretch 3 point shooter) he just played the 5 at that point because he was older and slow by then. But with the lakers he played the 4 and was the floor spacer to give magic and worthy room to post up. With vlade being at the high post to knock down jumpers.

 

[DIMES]

Marc Gasol
Brook Lopez
Joel Embiid
Nikola Jokic
Al Horford


There are stretch 5s now.

They taking wide wide open 3s ... don't nobody respect their range.

I wish I was 7'0 . Watch me hit 2 warmup jumpers, shoot 35% and be called a stretch 5


These big men are soft

Not embiid tho

 

[Malta]

Great points but also remember that perkins was a floor spacer he just played the 5 at that point because he was older and slow by then. But with the lakers he played the 4 and was the floor spacer to give magic and worthy room to post up. With vlade being at the high post to knock down jumpers.

Perkins was a specialist by that point, he could hit the three but not much else, and he was coming off the bench. Imagine a Kemp + Millsap or Horford frontcourt and how much better that would have been than what they had to start next to Shawn.

 

[Samori Toure]

sick of thes old heads back in my day

jeff ruland was averaging 22 points and 12 boards back in the 80s

 

[Originalman]

Perkins was a specialist by that point, he could hit the three but not much else, and he was coming off the bench. Imagine a Kemp + Millsap or Horford frontcourt and how much better that would have been than what they had to start next to Shawn.

That would have helped them. But remember it wasn't just outside shooting that hurt that team (they were a poor 3 point shooting team). It was a lack of size at center that got them beat against teams like the nuggets.

Back then the league let more physicality happen in the paint and actually let big men dominate and play physical. In that nuggets series they tried to go small to beat the nuggets but Mutumbo (he was a true 7 footer and they could not handle his size or Lephonso Ellis) just controlled the paint and dominated kemp and the rest of seattles big men.

The sonics ended up addressing the size issue getting Jim Mcilvane and the shooting issue by getting Hersey Hawkins and replacing Kendal Gill at SG.

 

[OfTheCross]

Starts at 2:48

Klay got 60 on 9 dribbles...that's real shyt. Old school nikkas ain't lying. This gen is a step beneath those greats