I've seen enough: Jokic is a top 6 center of all-time

[David_TheMan]

Nah hell nah, he wasn't even the best player on most of his teams. He and Reed, when they are brought up in conversation they are overrated like a muhfukka...

We will have to agree to disagree on that a 6'7 center in that era dominating on the boards like he did and being defensively sound and excellent outlet passer. He didn't focus on offense but he was adequate.

That said I find it funny how people ig kre how bad jokicnis defensively but want to put him on a pedestal and other modern centers that just play one side of the ball

 

[IsThatBrothaMouzone?]

cap Emmitt never had the" out of this world" factor Jordan had you to combine Emmitt accolades with Barry& Deion sanders athletisme and flash to get jordan of football

Agreed.

Emmitt was more like Kareem...but Kareem has always been in the GOAT discussion at least. Emmitt was the best player on all those championship teams but he's never mentioned at the top of the GOAT RB or GOAT overall conversation.

Running backs get judged on everything but what they actually did. Imagine a world where we treat Brett Favre like he's Barry Sanders and Tom Brady like he's Emmitt Smith. Similar concept. One set of players has more obvious raw talent while the other set has the better resume and were functionally "better" when it mattered most.

 

[murksiderock]

We need to put some more respect on Moses Malone's name.

Greatest baller to come out The Commonwealth and both Zo and Iverson are also from Virginia...

I went to one of VA Mo's rival high schools (he went to Petersburg, I went to Prince George). So maybe I've always been more partial to Moses than most cats my age but in generally cats do not give him the praise he deserves for the work he put in...

'81 Mo was '23 Jimmy before '23 Jimmy...

 

[stepbackj34spud]

Mosses Malone
3x mvp
1x finals mvp
13x all star
8x all nba
6x rebound champ
2x all defense

10th all time in points nba history
5th all time in rebounds

 

[Imyremeshaw]

The rings argument seems to only apply to wings (from Jordan stans).

Russell is considered an all-time great but no one considers him #1 at C or #1 overall despite all those 'ships and Civil Rights work.

It's basically any non-big man that gets buckets and plays decent D...."it's them rangz Erneh." Jordan/media/fans changed the way we evaluate 2s and 3s, so if they lack psychopathic tendencies and multiple rings, they're trash.

The 6'11"+ crew seems to be evaluated more on overall skill. Using football as an analogy, Emmitt Smith got the stats, accolades and rings...Basically MJ of running backs, yet no one ever gives him the MJ hall pass because we judge them and athletes in all the big sports differently except for NBA wings.

You bring up a great point regarding the rings argument especially with the running back comparison....

Prior to Jordan and 1990s basketball was way more nuanced, while Bill Russell was considered the greatest winner, Wilt was the greatest scorer, Kareem mixture of both, but the argument for who is better doesn't dominate like it does today....

For example, while Bird/Magic are the faces of the league in the 80s the GOAT argument is very rarely brought up, Kareem, who I consider GOAT all things considered, not just NBA, is considered best player among his peers in 70s, probably 1980 included, most GOAT arguments won't include him prior to Jordan ascension in the 90s(see below)

What I've noticed is that in 90s, the Jordan argument for GOAT changes to a focus on a combination of some factors to make an argument for his Airness, notice PPG-RPG-APG(the dumb ESPN stat lines that are brought up during the game) is propped up further to make his Airness seem as the standard when Oscar blew out that standard 20 plus years prior....

There is reason Jordan's 32-8-8 stretch is brought up to show he's the GOAT but Oscar or Westbrook's(to a lesser extent his should be) are downplayed, the NBA doesn't respect or appreciate their history and have a multitude of examples of downplaying prior NBA/ABA/pre-1946-1980 history on some Florida getting rid of black history shyt....

 

[BaldingSoHard]

Yeah, it's extremely tough to compare at that point. Especially when you consider that very different defensive skillsets were necessary in different eras. Jokic's lack of defense compared to most other great centers is a huge strike against him.

I think we only consider it a "huge" strike because of the position he plays. If he was doing this at PF, we would forgive his "lack" of defense because traditionally, your center anchors your defense but in this case, we have a center who anchors the offense in a way that we have never seen before.

And he is just so damn good at it that I have a hard time knocking him for it in the same way that I would another center in the league.

 

[Remy LeBreh]

I was listening to Debatable and Dominique Foxworth was adamant that Jokic is boring to watch because he doesn't dunk and most of his highlights are passes. Totally ignoring the absurd shots he makes, his insane footwork and body control, etc
Brehs just want to be contrarians. You can be Pro Black and still give Big Honey his respect.

 

[Premeditated]

Lets be honest. The only reason some of the players you listed are considered better is because of the era they played in. Joker shyts all over them skillwise.

Shut up cac

 

[murksiderock]

What I've noticed is that in 90s, the Jordan argument for GOAT changes to a focus on a combination of some factors to make an argument for his Airness

This is all it basically is in a nutshell. Perfectly summed up. Mike's ascension to winning championships birthed the "GOAT debate", and people who stanned him dominated all the positions to control the narrative---->so the debate was birthed with factors to justify Mike and Mike only, and those old fukks still have most of the positions of power. So the "GOAT debate" is still about criteria that favors Mike, rather than objective criteria that every All-Timer is held to...

 

[BucciMane]

Again, has been considered the best on the planet or a MVP caliber player since 18-19

Stop moving the goalposts. You said he has had a "good three year run". Calling it "good" is pure idiocy.

You and the Squirrel Man just need to admit you don't like Joker because he's made Melo an afterthought for the Nuggets and that MPJ isn't actually the MVP of Denver..



Those are facts, not opinion.

 

[T'Challa Trillmonger]

i think some of his fans are mad annoying, but that comes with being a top tier player, steph/dub fans (as someone from the bay), lebron fans, jordan fans etc all have segments of unbearable fans

but Jokic is legit, not his fault how the media/fans shape the narratives around him for better or worse

 

[stepbackj34spud]

The disrespect for Moses Malone in this thread is crazy. nikka has 3 MVPs and nearly 30k points. Chill with the disrespect.

Kareem
Shaq
Russell
Wilt
Dream
Malone

Then you can start to slide Jokic in. Smh

 

[MJ Truth]

Not sure how you put him over Moses at this point. If Jokic’s career was to end today or even after a title (big assumption) he wouldn’t be above Malone.

 

[murksiderock]

Not sure how you put him over Moses at this point. If Jokic’s career was to end today or even after a title (big assumption) he wouldn’t be above Malone.

on both...

The disrespect for Moses Malone in this thread is crazy. nikka has 3 MVPs and nearly 30k points. Chill with the disrespect.

Kareem
Shaq
Russell
Wilt
Dream
Malone

Then you can start to slide Jokic in. Smh

 

[IsThatBrothaMouzone?]

You bring up a great point regarding the rings argument especially with the running back comparison....

Prior to Jordan and 1990s basketball was way more nuanced, while Bill Russell was considered the greatest winner, Wilt was the greatest scorer, Kareem mixture of both, but the argument for who is better doesn't dominate like it does today....

For example, while Bird/Magic are the faces of the league in the 80s the GOAT argument is very rarely brought up, Kareem, who I consider GOAT all things considered, not just NBA, is considered best player among his peers in 70s, probably 1980 included, most GOAT arguments won't include him prior to Jordan ascension in the 90s(see below)

What I've noticed is that in 90s, the Jordan argument for GOAT changes to a focus on a combination of some factors to make an argument for his Airness, notice PPG-RPG-APG(the dumb ESPN stat lines that are brought up during the game) is propped up further to make his Airness seem as the standard when Oscar blew out that standard 20 plus years prior....

There is reason Jordan's 32-8-8 stretch is brought up to show he's the GOAT but Oscar or Westbrook's(to a lesser extent his should be) are downplayed, the NBA doesn't respect or appreciate their history and have a multitude of examples of downplaying prior NBA/ABA/pre-1946-1980 history on some Florida getting rid of black history shyt....

Bingo! It's exactly why GOAT NBA arguments centered around Jordan make no sense.

The talking heads basically point out the areas MJ was strongest in and then center their argument around that.

The Bron vs MJ debates make even less sense because LeBron is basically Karl Malone + Magic Johnson combined but with more athletic ability than either guy at his peak. He's a PG in a PF body. Jordan should be compared to Wade, Kobe, Curry, The Logo etc.

Agree on Kareem. He's a lot closer to MJ than people wanna admit and you can make very strong arguments for why he's THAT GUY.