Jay-Z: How can the "GOAT" Always come in "2nd??" - The ULTIMATE Devils Advocate Thread

Art Barr

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The stat of 12 number one albums holds no weight. You can debut number one and finish with very weak sales if you drop with no competition. HOWEVER, the stat of 12 million+ selling albums holds A LOT of weight.

Sure 50, nelly, Kanye, and Wayne all had years where they dominated. But they came and went while jay has remained. A true king doesn't have a couple hot years then struggle right after. A true king puts up CAREER numbers.

Sure nelly was blazing hot for 3 years and hot another 2. Sure 50 was blazing hot for 3 years and hot for another 2. But what did that get them ALL TIME? You know what that "five hot years then fell the fukk off" got 50 and nelly? 30 million records sold. You know what that "2nd place for 17 years" got jay z? 50 million sold.

You made the argument that a big week doesn't mean shyt but a big year means everything.
We'll I'll make the argument that a big CAREER means everything.

And the fact remains, regardless of his year to year placement, unless you are a white rapper or the rapper most often considered the goat, jay outsold you.

Jay didn't dominate a set few years, but his CAREER has far surpassed that of 50, nelly, Wayne, Kanye, big, DMX, and everyone else aside from em and PAC.

Forget longevity vs. dominating a specific time, these rappers WISH they could sell 50 million in their career PERIOD

#factsonly


jay only got to actually survive because he never took on the mantra of emcee, when it worked in his favor.
at least to nelly and fiddy's cases..
I can easily say,...they at least went for the crown with no relevent cosign.
nor did they piggyback.
they were that large of a draw from a industry building block grassroots wise.
the industry had to actually work to accommodate them.

plus, in their highest or lowest incarnations inbetween their first and second releases.....
I can also, say they put their neck on the line battling in an antagonistic fashion.
as opposed to jay's sissy fight way of going about how he will get served.

at least in fiddy and nelly case I can say they battled the best.
or went at the best, with no bytch in them whatsoever.
to the point,..i can still feel that fiddy and nelly given their underground records to draw for longer than two years into a blockbuster major label draw.
still gives them the cred of acquiring a deal, on their first try.
jay never acquired a deal on his first try in his actual contemporaries time frame like nelly and fiddy.
where the idea of the goat was far solidified and out of their grasp.
plus, they never aligned themselves as cultural product producing artist.

whereas jay came up int he same era as the real goat and the candidates.
then, got on three productions gens later, in a jiggy commercial sellout fashion.
that is not based on a skills or cultural based level for success.
yet, at least fiddy and nelly who made the same non-culturally sellout based fashion material.
got on in their repective contemporaries era, in an era that business wise was able to and setup to bare that type of artist.
plus, actually sold ...like gangbusters when the industry was ripe for the taking.

when, jay, was setup originally to take the industry by storm.
in the wake of big, and had the cosign from that to capitalize.
the real goat krs, went plat and also....had the most recognizeable and relevant single for that release, in step into the world.
in a time period, where commercial jiggy-ism, actually established itself as the top drawing genre in rap in volume.
yet, jayz was never the top relevant artist then.
a krs who was out of difference with the marketplace.
actually made the best single lone submission.
the same krs, out of gen who took out nelly.
to nelly's credit,...he went against the best.
as did, fiddy in full blind faith no cultural footprint to stand on antagonistic fashion.
when jay had the chance to do so, and actually ruin nas at his height.
he was making subliminal unreleased diss records on the bootleg to volume iii.
for, an artist..that in that time frame.....
jay had no cultural footprint to win against nas.
yet, the industry and fan perception were so setup for the deflection based win, for jay.
his sissy fight style of battling and not really being a real champion in the ilk he says he, to seize the day.

at a point,..that if jay would have said nas's name on is that your chick and released a mixed down version .
complete with the twista feature.
nas, would have been incapable of recovering.
after nas was at a point of no-return as a cultural mutinous sellout.
including releasing material that was far under quality.
that nas would have been judged by lack of cultural identity, and low quality of work, and lost by default, at that exact time.
when volume ii was released as a bootleg, in the last quarter of the winter of 1999.
if jay was actually authoritative,..he could have ended nas, and completely eradicate any drawing artist with a cultural identity as relevant.
thus winnig the jiggy war and besting the actual best contemporary when he was released.
at a time when the balance of power could have been completely all his.
on a, non-shatterable glass ceiling level that had jiggy mainstream top draw cred at the top of the industry.
plus, the perception of taking out the last mainstream culturally relevant sellout in rap, for that era.
if jay would have beat nas,....
jay would hsve had the cultural victory over a figure, to trump any arguement as to his dominance.
yet, we get the narcissistic game of him and his stans to attempt to give him a fake victory


with nelly and fiddy, at least from the get go you got what was to be expected.
you expected them to be pop mainstream relevant and die a thousand deaths.
from their full lack of attention to detail culturally and skillwise as emcees.
in jay's case,....he jumped on whatever was hot and never dominated .
plus, never paid full attention culturally or to his skill as an emcee.
yet, in his case,...he was there and was the only one who could have capitalized to take the cultural edge completely out of rap.
since, jay failed and the magnitude of fail.
on top of being exposed as a less than game battle emcee.
jay, ruined his chance to completely dominate in argument like his pandering would lead you to mistakenly believe.
until a lackluster year of releases from 1998.
which, was apart of the sellouts attempt to take over rap, using major label distribution.
to succeed in the oversaturated releases of non-culturally endorsed low quality rap records of late 1995, 1996, 1997 and through to now.

jay got on in a sales tier, in a skills and culturally deficient and eroded era.
after the degradation of skills, on major label releases became abundant.
after the loss of the two [biggie & pac], which shattered the glass ceiling in pop sales for rap artist.
yet, it also allowed culture thieves jay was aligned with like puff. I
in the emotional wake and loss of big in the marketplace.
to literally destroy the marketplace, with low quality oversaturated pop commercial jiggy rap.

so, you really can not harshly criticize nelly and fiddy, culturally.
as harshly as jayz., as you can be critical of jay as an emcee.
as nelly and fiddy, put more on the line consistently and at their height in a higher frequency of volume.
plus, actually brought a sweeping change and turn into the marketplace,..
jay has never actually matched at any point in his career, wholeheartedly.
while also,,..never being the actual real gateway artist for the entire industry as nelly and fiddy were.
in the fashion, of originality and actual grassroots campaign that nelly and fiddy built from.

nelly and fiddy were destined to suffer from the typical general definition, of the destruction of a draw.
jay has not suffered in the same manner of their general definition when it comes to the destruction of their draw.
as he never created a sweeping gateway pop blockbuster sales draw.
that rivaled fiddy or nelly at their height.
plus, jay never actually did what people who are the best do, consistently skillwise.
which is either be good enough,.no one typically tries it, except every other era or not at all..
in the case of nelly,....nelly actually antagonized krs and baited him for a battle.
that if judged on asinine deflection loser bullshyt, that is not culturally accepted as ground for a win in a battle.
nelly against actual proven goat competition for their respective eras.
has the discussion and badge of courage at the very least for risking his top blockbuster draw, antagonizing a battle with krs with number one.
to the point,...it took krs took tries to get rid of him from a cultural and skill level as an equal as emcees.

yet,...when it comes to jay...
jay, did not fully do what nelly did.
nelly called out krs,...
jay waited to hope a rap scenario content wise would be pieced together,..which is ho shyt..
which is not what you do when you want to battle and actually win, consistently.

in the case of nelly and fiddy...tey emulated what the top draw is expected to actually do, whether win lose or draw.
in the case of jay,....he can never be the best..
as he never does what the top draw is expected to do.
yet, tries to raise a false points criteria wise,..as to false crown him a title he really never acquired.


art barr
 

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"Biggie / Pac 2 #1 songs at 24, Jay 1 at 43...... #caseClosed"
If you look at my post I put according to sales and impact jay would be third, pac being one of the people he is behind.
As for big having 2 number one songs and jay having one, the extra 35 million albums sold far outpaces having an extra number one single

"Biggie 2 classics on his first 2 tries, Jay only 2 on 14 tries.... #caseClosed"
You can't argue in "facts" and then include something that is fully based on opinion. Self-defeating argument.
And even then at the end of the day if you believe jay only has 2 classics, he still has just as many as big

"Pac 2 classics, better sales on average, more classic songs"
Notice I placed pac above jay. But much of what you said here is opinion too

I'm not saying jay is the goat, but let's see your argument for ANY RAPPER aside from Eminem and 2pac being more of a rap god than him. I'll wait
 

really

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Art barr,


A LOT of the hype around Jay-Z as an Emcee is because of his business success / Beyonce marriage.... If he was JUST an Emcee, this thread (reality) wouldn't hit people so hard.


If LUDACRIS had his same discography / lyrics + P Diddys fame / business movies, he would be looked at in a light like Jay-Z.



Top business man from rap ever? He's #2 to puff.



Best rapper of all time?

Biggie / Pac numbers+classics shyt on him even though he has a 20 year advantage... NO CONTEST...



Eminem - Far more albums sold than Jay and FAR better as far as pure rap skills.


Lil Wayne - More material than Jay, FAR more hits than Jay, dominated rap a few years (which Jay never has) and sold a million in a week (something Jay has openly admitted he wish he could've done but never has and never will)


Nas - Has the wild card of having the universal greatest rap album of all time, defeated Jay-Z in the greatest rap battle of all time, and is far better than Jay-Z lyrically.


Jay-Z - 2 classic albums, unrivaled longevity / relevance.




Jay is somewhere between 3 and 6 depending on where you want to place him... Because Eminem, Nas, and Wayne have LEGIT arguments over him.


But one thing is for certain, he's definitely not the G.O.A.T.... Impossible no matter HOW you slice it.:manny:
 

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jay got on in a sales tier, in a skills and culturally deficient and eroded era.
after the degradation of skills, on major label releases became abundant.
after the loss of the two [biggie & pac], which shattered the glass ceiling in pop sales for rap artist.
yet, it also allowed culture thieves jay was aligned with like puff. I
in the emotional wake and loss of big in the marketplace.
to literally destroy the marketplace, with low quality oversaturated pop commercial jiggy rap.



art barr

I always thought this about Jay. the timing of his "come up",

he had been around along time before he blew like he did, he was a '96 titty boi, without the official name change.

Your whole post had many good points, I think there are too many factors in the way to stop him being considered the "goat" but I think its legit that he could be in the discussion.
 

Art Barr

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"Biggie / Pac 2 #1 songs at 24, Jay 1 at 43...... #caseClosed"
If you look at my post I put according to sales and impact jay would be third, pac being one of the people he is behind.
As for big having 2 number one songs and jay having one, the extra 35 million albums sold far outpaces having an extra number one single

"Biggie 2 classics on his first 2 tries, Jay only 2 on 14 tries.... #caseClosed"
You can't argue in "facts" and then include something that is fully based on opinion. Self-defeating argument.
And even then at the end of the day if you believe jay only has 2 classics, he still has just as many as big

"Pac 2 classics, better sales on average, more classic songs"
Notice I placed pac above jay. But much of what you said here is opinion too

I'm not saying jay is the goat, but let's see your argument for ANY RAPPER aside from Eminem and 2pac being more of a rap god than him. I'll wait


you really can not champion jay in the manner of the goat.
all, because jay lost to many battles from his own actual poor showing skillwise.
plus, the manner jay went about poorly defending himself, on reel-to-reel.
or failing to antagonize on a level that could be deemed respectable as a culturally viable emcee.
on top of failing to antagonize and actually win, said battles as well.

if jay had actually converted and won...
then, his stans and people who raise the argument would have a credible fact based ledge to stand on.
instead of the rickety poor man's dock,..they have erected to support their strawman argument for jayz.


art barr
 

Art Barr

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I always thought this about Jay. the timing of his "come up",

he had been around along time before he blew like he did, he was a '96 titty boi, without the official name change.

Your whole post had many good points, I think there are too many factors in the way to stop him being considered the "goat" but I think its legit that he could be in the discussion.


anyone can be in the discussion or have the idea raised about who the goat is.
nothing wrong with that...
yet, when jayz purposefully along with his fans defy the cultural basis and facts...
that will be instituted in the discussion of the goat in full brainwashed narcissistic fashion.
that is where the problem lies....


art barr
 

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"
in the case of nelly and fiddy...tey emulated what the top draw is expected to actually do, whether win lose or draw.
in the case of jay,....he can never be the best..
as he never does what the top draw is expected to do.
yet, tries to raise a false points criteria wise,..as to false crown him a title he really never acquired.
art barr"

Raise false points? Jay says men lie, women lie, numbers don't. His sales stand above any and all rappers aside from Eminem and 2pac.
No false points, simply the 3rd best selling rap artist of all time.
 

Art Barr

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Art barr,


A LOT of the hype around Jay-Z as an Emcee is because of his business success / Beyonce marriage.... If he was JUST an Emcee, this thread (reality) wouldn't hit people so hard.


If LUDACRIS had his same discography / lyrics + P Diddys fame / business movies, he would be looked at in a light like Jay-Z.



Top business man from rap ever? He's #2 to puff.



Best rapper of all time?

Biggie / Pac numbers+classics shyt on him even though he has a 20 year advantage... NO CONTEST...



Eminem - Far more albums sold than Jay and FAR better as far as pure rap skills.


Lil Wayne - More material than Jay, FAR more hits than Jay, dominated rap a few years (which Jay never has) and sold a million in a week (something Jay has openly admitted he wish he could've done but never has and never will)


Nas - Has the wild card of having the universal greatest rap album of all time, defeated Jay-Z in the greatest rap battle of all time, and is far better than Jay-Z lyrically.


Jay-Z - 2 classic albums, unrivaled longevity / relevance.




Jay is somewhere between 3 and 6 depending on where you want to place him... Because Eminem, Nas, and Wayne have LEGIT arguments over him.


But one thing is for certain, he's definitely not the G.O.A.T.... Impossible no matter HOW you slice it.:manny:

I would not rank jay high in the goat discussion, and I don't rank out of the top five, either.
of which, jay is not in either discussion....

if we were making an argument for the best salesman turned executive in the world of rap.
jay would fail incomparison to other executives, in that discussion as well.
the discussion of the best salesmans in the industry of rap, is far and away from the discussion of the best emcee.
in that is the issue,...
as jay manipulates his fanbase and pr's himself like business admin skills have something to do with emcee skills.
when emcee skills have nuffin to do with business admin skills as an exec.



art barr
 

really

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PS I'm not going by strictly hits / album sales / dominance... Because if we did that, Jay would be 5th behind Big, Pac, Eminem and Wayne... (average album sales per release)

And you gotta factor in wayne still selling a million in a week when nobody buying albums.... lets be real, if carter 3 dropped in 2000 (with the same buzz), it would've possibly outsold MMLP... 9 to 12 million, EASY....


Jay never had that type of brolic and never will.
 

Art Barr

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"
in the case of nelly and fiddy...tey emulated what the top draw is expected to actually do, whether win lose or draw.
in the case of jay,....he can never be the best..
as he never does what the top draw is expected to do.
yet, tries to raise a false points criteria wise,..as to false crown him a title he really never acquired.
art barr"

Raise false points? Jay says men lie, women lie, numbers don't. His sales stand above any and all rappers aside from Eminem and 2pac.
No false points, simply the 3rd best selling rap artist of all time.


sales have nuffin to do with emcee skills or the stature of the goat.
so, why do you continue to raise an issue about content on sales.
plus, continue to use it as some selling point or buzz worthy point of relevance.
when you have no actual facts in your favor to aid you in discussing those points, as well.

you can not dispute a fact...a fact can not be disputed...
their are no facts in your favor to aid you in crowning jay the goat, in any discussion ever.


art barr
 

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anyone can be in the discussion or have the idea raised about who the goat is.
nothing wrong with that...
yet, when jayz purposefully along with his fans defy the cultural basis and facts...
that will be instituted in the discussion of the goat in full brainwashed narcissistic fashion.
that is where the problem lies....


art barr

yes I do believe he was on some "emperors new clothes" shyt with his claim on goat status.
 
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:bryan:

at the essays being typed in here. Speaking objectively though, I think the main reason why he's considered GOAT is because he said so (2004 TBA) and nobody of any significance disagreed with him at the time. He is held as the greatest by some of the same people you say have beaten him out over the years. So its not just the fans, the industry for the most part is comfortable with him having the "crown".


Just my opinion.
 

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sales have nuffin to do with emcee skills or the stature of the goat.
so, why do you continue to raise an issue about content on sales.
plus, continue to use it as some selling point or buzz worthy point of relevance.
when you have no actual facts in your favor to aid you in discussing those points, as well.

you can not dispute a fact...a fact can not be disputed...
their are no facts in your favor to aid you in crowning jay the goat, in any discussion ever.


art barr


Read OP original post, his #factsonly mission talking about how jay did not dominate any given year. The "facts" he presented were sales and dominance, no emcee skills
 

really

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:bryan:

at the essays being typed in here. Speaking objectively though, I think the main reason why he's considered GOAT is because he said so (2004 TBA) and nobody of any significance disagreed with him at the time. He is held as the greatest by some of the same people you say have beaten him out over the years. So its not just the fans, the industry for the most part is comfortable with him having the "crown".


Just my opinion.

:deadmanny:@ "no one of significance" disagreeing with him at the time....so THAT makes him goat... (like someone would come out and say "hell naw he aint goat", risk being blackballed, lose connects, all type of shyt....)


Damn the school system must be real fukked up now a days:russ:




Ps nas told his TRUE feelings on Ether. Eminem feels he's rap god. Diddy said on revolt yesterday Biggie is the GOAT....


Those 3 significant enough?:pachaha:
 
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:deadmanny:@ "no one of significance" disagreeing with him at the time....so THAT makes him goat... (like someone would come out and say "hell naw he aint goat", risk being blackballed, lose connects, all type of shyt....)


Damn the school system must be real fukked up now a days:russ:




Ps nas told his TRUE feelings on Ether. Eminem feels he's rap god. Diddy said on revolt yesterday Biggie is the GOAT....


Those 3 significant enough?:pachaha:

Don't be so emotional. I thought we were talking about why people think he's the GOAT. I made mention to him naming himself the GOAT in 2004 and no one disagreeing at the time and you made reference to ether that dropped in 2001 and then to Diddy saying something just last week, and a Em track that dropped a week before.....


I thought we were talking about how he got to be perceived as such and I think its mainly because he crowned himself back then and everyone cosigned at the time...It could have been because of the threat of blackballing, but I don't know that for sure.

When Jay called himself the best rapper alive right before he retired. Who disagreed?
 
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