Justice Scalia Suggests Blacks Belong at "Slower" Colleges

[NobodyReally]

No offense, but there is a ton of evidence showing exactly what you are mocking/doubting., this is obvious and well known to anyone paying any attention to Affirmative Action at all.

• Black college freshmen are more likely to aspire to science or engineering careers than are white freshmen, but mismatch [affirmative action acceptants] causes blacks to abandon these fields at twice the rate of whites.
• Blacks who start college interested in pursuing a doctorate and an academic career are twice as likely to be derailed from this path if they attend a school where they are mismatched.
• About half of black college students rank in the bottom 20 percent of their classes (and the bottom 10 percent in law school).
• Black law school graduates are four times as likely to fail bar exams as are whites; mismatch explains half of this gap.
• Interracial friendships are more likely to form among students with relatively similar levels of academic preparation; thus, blacks and Hispanics are more socially integrated on campuses where they are less academically mismatched.

The Painful Truth About Affirmative Action

Bull shyt. Your sources are not credible.

 

[CAC Dogg]

How did you even get that out of his comment, and what makes you think he's somehow an ally to Black people? Dude made no mention of any of these things, all he said was they come from bad schools so you might as well send them to bad universities. And what the hell is "hypersensitive to racism"? Is that the term white supremacists use now?

because of the context of his statements... he is debating Affirmative Action and is a Supreme Court Justice... hes not just gonna come out on record as saying "black people are dumb" in today's political climate. Yall are so silly with this racism allegations sometimes. If the judge was black, I bet you would see and hear these comments in a completely different tone.

The failure of Affirmative Action is pretty well known /documented. It helps some black people, but hurts more by throwing them into schools they shouldn't have gotten into (EG accepting a black man with a 3.0 for a 4.0 University because of Affirmative Action). See my last comment for the numerous ways this hurts them...

Affirmative Action was really only beneficial for Democrat politicians, who just go "SEE LOOK MORE BLACK PEOPLE IN UNIVERSITIES, IM ON YOUR SIDE, VOTE 4 ME"
when in reality lots of these same black people in universities are dropping out and failing to pass bar exams etc.

Politicians used blacks for Affirmative Action, convinced them with admission stats that Affirmative Action was in their benefit, but really AA isn't helping and is just a clusterfukk of ineffective overcompensation for past discrimination, thats all Scalia is saying.

 

[Rarely-Wrong Liggins]

Nope, that is just what you read into his quote because you are hypersensitive to racism.

What he was saying was "blacks were discriminated against historically, our lower income public schools, of which most of the black race attends, are failing, the SYSTEM is failing the kids, and as a result the US is not preparing black people for the Universities we are throwing them in with little regard to how they will do after college"

Hes not saying blacks are inherently dumb, hes saying America has failed in preparing them for college, and there is a much better option for black students, considering this reality.

If he meant that then that's the way he should have phrased it.

 

[Numpsay]

#staymadabby has some gems on Twitter

[/QUOTE]

 

[NobodyReally]

because of the context of his statements... he is debating Affirmative Action and is a Supreme Court Justice... hes not just gonna come out on record as saying "black people are dumb" in today's political climate. Yall are so silly with this racism allegations sometimes. If the judge was black, I bet you would see and hear these comments in a completely different tone.

The failure of Affirmative Action is pretty well known /documented. It helps some black people, but hurts more by throwing them into schools they shouldn't have gotten into (EG accepting a black man with a 3.0 for a 4.0 University because of Affirmative Action). See my last comment for the numerous ways this hurts them...

Affirmative Action was really only beneficial for Democrat politicians, who just go "SEE LOOK MORE BLACK PEOPLE IN UNIVERSITIES, IM ON YOUR SIDE, VOTE 4 ME"
when in reality lots of these same black people in universities are dropping out and failing to pass bar exams etc.

Politicians used blacks for Affirmative Action, convinced them with admission stats that Affirmative Action was in their benefit, but really AA isn't helping and is just a clusterfukk of ineffective overcompensation for past discrimination, thats all Scalia is saying.

None of the links to the sources in that article work. Where's the methodology? Where are the dates on the sources? Who wrote those studies? You quote one article written by a law professor and economist, who don't do social science research on education. Come on now, at least cite some real researchers.

 

[NobodyReally]

No offense, but there is a ton of evidence showing exactly what you are mocking/doubting., this is obvious and well known to anyone paying any attention to Affirmative Action at all.

• Black college freshmen are more likely to aspire to science or engineering careers than are white freshmen, but mismatch [affirmative action acceptants] causes blacks to abandon these fields at twice the rate of whites.
• Blacks who start college interested in pursuing a doctorate and an academic career are twice as likely to be derailed from this path if they attend a school where they are mismatched.
• About half of black college students rank in the bottom 20 percent of their classes (and the bottom 10 percent in law school).
• Black law school graduates are four times as likely to fail bar exams as are whites; mismatch explains half of this gap.
• Interracial friendships are more likely to form among students with relatively similar levels of academic preparation; thus, blacks and Hispanics are more socially integrated on campuses where they are less academically mismatched.

The Painful Truth About Affirmative Action

The Bok and Bowen study REMAINS the only comprehensive, empirical study that has been done on the effects of Affirmative Action nationwide.




Far Reaching Study Documents Success of Affirmative Action
Debra Humphreys, Director of Programs, AAC&U and Editor, Diversity Digest

"Would it be wise to reduce substantially the numbers of well-prepared Blacks and Latinos graduating from many of our leading colleges and professional schools?" Derek Bok and William Bowen, former presidents of Harvard and Princeton universities, clearly do not think so. And their scrupulously researched and documented study goes a long way toward injecting some wisdom and reason into the ongoing rancorous debates over affirmative action.

In their important book, The Shape of the River, they do not side-step the important questions of preparedness and fairness, but they ask the right questions about the purposes and impact of affirmative action policies. They document powerfully that these policies have achieved their purposes at the few schools in the country that have used race-sensitive admissions.

In a national context, it is important to note that affirmative action policies are used at only a small percentage of the nation's most selective colleges and universities. These authors make a persuasive case, however, that these policies provide significant benefits to the institutions that use them, the students who are admitted under them, and ultimately to our society as a whole. This data-rich study also documents what impact the elimination of these policies would have.

Bok and Bowen debunk a series of myths about affirmative action. They refute claims that affirmative action policies admit unqualified students; that they set students admitted under these policies up for failure; or that they significantly affect white applicants' chances of gaining admission to these selective institutions.

Bok and Bowen base their claims on an extensive study of "the college and later-life experiences of more than 35,000 students--almost 3,000 of whom were black--who had entered 28 selective colleges and universities in the fall of 1976 and the fall of 1989." Using a database developed by the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation, they also link information such as SAT scores and college majors to post-college experiences including graduate and professional degree attainment, income, and degrees of civic involvement.

Benefits for African American Students

Bok and Bowen's study demonstrates conclusively that race-sensitive admissions policies have dramatic benefits for the African American students admitted under them. (The study focuses only "on African American and white students because the Latino [and Native American] population at these schools w[ere] too small to permit the same sort of analysis.") Their data suggests that African American entering selective institutions have high (and increasing) rates of completion, though not yet as high as their white classmates. Seventy-five percent of African Americans attending these selective institutions in 1989 graduated from the schools they entered within six years. This rate was far higher then comparable graduation rates for all African American college students nationwide (40 percent) or all white students (59 percent). Non-academic factors (financial, social, etc.) are generally believed to account for the vast majority of student withdrawals.

After graduating from these institutions, large numbers of African American students also go on to earn advanced degrees, especially in the fields of law, business, and medicine. In fact, African American graduates were slightly more likely than whites from these schools to obtain these professional degrees, even though they had, on average, lower test scores and grades.

African American graduates from these institutions also have done extremely well in the job market. African American Bachelors of Arts who entered selective institutions in 1976 and worked full-time earned an average of $85,000 in 1995, 84 percent more than the average for all African American male B.A.'s nationwide. Black female B.A.'s from selective institutions earned an average of $65,000, 71 percent more than African American women B.A.'s nationwide.

 

[Edub]

Cacs in being racist shocker!!

The sooner we stop giving a damn what they think about us the better

Justice Scalia knows the truth tho...that the supreme intelligence that stands at the top of today's social economic and political PYRAMID is a young 30 something year old black man. Many cacs in positions of power know this very fact and in jealous response have chosen to take on ignorant racist views and tones because of the fact that a black man being wiser and more knowledgeable than them for them is embarrassing and damning. They lost and they are hurt about it. It's the reason for the rise in police shootings, it's the reason certain agendas have begun trying to go EXTRA HARD...it's the reason the public fear campaigns keep jumping off....BECAUSE THE REAL IS BACK, ITS NOT THE COLOR THEY WISHED AND THIS ENTIRE GAME IS UNRAVELLING...





REMEMBER I TOLD U...THE REVOLUTION IS NOT AND WILL NOT BE TELEVISED...BUT IT IS HAPPENING(Barack should be ashamed)

 

[Yehuda]

Affirmative Action was really only beneficial for Democrat politicians, who just go "SEE LOOK MORE BLACK PEOPLE IN UNIVERSITIES, IM ON YOUR SIDE, VOTE 4 ME"
when in reality lots of these same black people in universities are dropping out and failing to pass bar exams etc.

Now here you go trying to get muthaphuckas to vote republican.

 

[CAC Dogg]

It is racist to imply that the standards at UT should be correlated to competence and intelligence. .

this, by itself, is not racist at all.

It is also racist to imply that less competitive schools are "slower" because they enroll more blacks

That is not at all what he implied. You have the sufficient and necessary condition confused. He didn't refer to schools as slower on the basis of them having more black people, he referred to schools as being slower because they are slower (IE accept lower GPAs).

His rubrics for intelligence are HIGHLY contested with empirical data that proves standardized test scores are MORE correlated to SES than actual performance and retention, ESPECIALLY for blacks. UT standards have also historically been adjusted to the cut-off scores of Blacks as a means to exclude them in order to appease alumna.

I don't really doubt this might be true, but I just want to mention you haven't proven or even tried to provide evidence for any of these claims and are talking like its fact.

Even if what you are saying is true here, which I don't doubt, it doesn't explain why blacks have higher dropout rates in college, fail bar exams more often, etc.

bullshyt your sources are not credible

How convenient . Evidence that disproves your claims is "not credible", based on the logic of "BULLshyt!".

Confirmation bias - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

scalia apologist!

I don't give a fukk about Scalia

ad hominem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

doesn't mean I want to encourage you to call people a racist for no reason, either.

 

[David_TheMan]

Sounds like pure BS.
Not surprised coming from Scalia.

 

[NobodyReally]

this, by itself, is not racist at all.



That is not at all what he implied. You have the sufficient and necessary condition confused. He didn't refer to schools as slower on the basis of them having more black people, he referred to schools as being slower because they are slower (IE accept lower GPAs).

I don't really doubt this might be true, but I just want to mention you haven't proven or even tried to provide evidence for any of these claims and are talking like its fact.

Even if what you are saying is true here, which I don't doubt, it doesn't explain why blacks have higher dropout rates in college, fail bar exams more often, etc.



How convenient . Evidence that disproves your claims is "not credible", based on the logic of "BULLshyt!".

Confirmation bias - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm saying it's bullshyt because there are empirical studies that refute this article with NUMBERS and outcomes. Also, the standards that you claim are "objective" keep getting moved depending on how many and what kinds minorities get in. Standards are not an issue if we're talking poor whites or legacy applicants. But when it comes to people of color, all of a sudden the standards matter so very much.


Harvard Accused of Bias Against Asian-Americans
Complaint alleges university sets higher bar for applicants to limit Asian enrollment

ENLARGE
A complaint filed against Harvard alleges the school sets a too-high bar for Asian-American applicants. PHOTO: MOMENT EDITORIAL/GETTY IMAGES
By
DOUGLAS BELKIN
Updated May 15, 2015 9:26 p.m. ET
1029 COMMENTS

A complaint Friday alleged that Harvard University discriminates against Asian-American applicants by setting a higher bar for admissions than that faced by other groups.

The complaint, filed by a coalition of 64 organizations, says the university has set quotas to keep the numbers of Asian-American students significantly lower than the quality of their applications merits. It cites third-party academic research on the SAT exam showing that Asian-Americans have to score on average about 140 points higher than white students, 270 points higher than Hispanic students and 450 points higher than African-American students to equal their chances of gaining admission to Harvard. The exam is scored on a 2400-point scale.

The complaint was filed with the U.S. Education Department’s Office for Civil Rights.

“Many studies have indicated that Harvard University has been engaged in systemic and continuous discrimination against Asian-Americans during its very subjective ‘Holistic’ college admissions process,” the complaint alleges.

The coalition is seeking a federal investigation and is requesting Harvard “immediately cease and desist from using stereotypes, racial biases and other discriminatory means in evaluating Asian-American applicants.”

Robert Iuliano, Harvard’s general counsel, said the school’s admissions policies are “fully compliant with the law.” The school says its admissions process takes into account a variety of factors besides academics, including applicants’ extracurricular activities and leadership qualities.

“Within its holistic admissions process, and as part of its effort to build a diverse class, Harvard College has demonstrated a strong record of recruiting and admitting Asian American students,” Mr. Iuliano said in a statement. He said the percentage of Asian-American students admitted to the undergraduate school rose to 21% from less than 18% in the past decade.

But the group that filed the complaint said that percentage should be much higher given the increasing numbers of Asian-American students that apply.

“There is a lot of discrimination, and it hurts not just Asian-Americans, it hurts the whole country,” said Yukong Zhao, a 52-year-old Chinese-American author who helped organize the coalition. He said there are longtime stereotypes of Asian applicants’ being “not creative enough or risk-taking enough, but that’s not true. Nearly half of the tech start-ups in the country were started by Asian-Americans. Every one is a great example of creativity, and risk-taking and leadership.”

The complaint argues that elite schools “that use race-neutral admissions” have far higher Asian-American enrollment than Harvard. At California Institute of Technology, for instance, about 40% of undergraduates are Asian-American, about twice that at Harvard.

The allegations come six months after a group called Students for Fair Admissions argued in a federal lawsuit that Harvard uses preferences to reach specific racial balance on its campuses.

Thomas Espenshade, a Princeton University sociologist who has done work on race in college admissions, said the complaint was the result of long-simmering anger in the Asian-American community.

“Up until five or 10 years ago the response has been, ‘Well we just have to work harder,’ ” Mr. Espenshade said. “But over the last decade, more groups are starting to mobilize, saying we don’t have to just accept his, we can push back against it.”

 

[CAC Dogg]

If he meant that then that's the way he should have phrased it.

it is how he phrased it, you are basically just taking it out of context (what he said before this, who he is, where he is speaking, what he is talking about in general etc). You can't properly understand the meaning of a statement without taking into account the context... you can make anyone say almost anything if you take them out of context.

my point here, the only reason im posting in this thread at all, is to show how easy it is to misconceive someone as being a racist because of a quote that was taken out of context.

you can get people to say anything when you misquote them like this... its one of the most shameful things

 

[CAC Dogg]

I'm saying it's bullshyt because there are empirical studies that refute this article with NUMBERS and outcomes.”

You have to show me some of those empirical studies that show blacks dont dropout of top universities and fail bar exams more on average... you are the one who is speaking bullshyt here.

As for the rest of your comment... You are arguing against a point I said I agree with you on, and ignoring what we disagree on: that black dropout rates and failure at the bar exam is well documented / you haven't proven or even tried to provide evidence for any of the claim that it isn't [2].

I don't understand why you are talking about Asian discrimination now? That Harvard example doesn't say anything about the fact that African Americans drop out of colleges more often, and fail the bar exam more... my source obviously does... and it is obviously because Affirmative Action is throwing them into schools where they aren't ready for that academic pressure (the reason for them not being ready doesn't matter, it doesn't matter who or what is to blame, it can be SES, it can be pure intelligence; the bottom line is if you aren't prepared for an elite college, you are better off not going to one).

and its obvious that if you are tending to fail out of colleges or fail the final exams, you weren't ready for them.

 

[Red Shield]

Average people don't become racist after hearing a KKK speech, they become racist because people like you push them away by telling them they are scum every time they bring up race at all, even when they are trying to help. It's not hard to imagine how this happens. If your white and your only encounter with a group of black people in your entire life is them shutting down your non-racist ideas as "racist", then being told you are a white devil for not killing cops, what do you honestly expect them to come away with?

 

[Rarebird77]

I don't agree because those examples and that explanation kinda excludes the fact that these higher level schools are full of kids who had the benefit of parent alumni and stacks of cash to get them through the door/across the stage as well.

But nobody ever brings that up.

That's what those places exist for though. To continue privilege amongst whites.

It's not the school in and of itself that engenders the privilege it's the exclusion that does.

The belief that proximity equals inclusion is screwing the black community.