Kentucky GOP Leader Thinks Fetal Viability Begins at Conception

[Maschine_Man]

I don't think there should ever be a cutoff actually, unless the woman agrees to have the child early or agrees to carry to term and give up for adoption, I don't think the government has a right to impose any cutoff date or mandate a woman carry a chld to term or anything like that.

I think late term abortions are disgusting and I honestly think life starts at inception, but I'm content to let people try to talk people out of it than using force of the government to mandate what a person can do with their body.

a late term abortion is a woman giving birth...to a baby they just killed.

If a woman hasn't figured it out by then she shouldn't be allowed to do it. There are hormonal imbalances and pregnancy depression and a whol wack of things going on in the woman's body. And the later you go on the more hormonal and imbalanced they become. At that point making rational decisions is a lot less likely as well.

There HAS to be a cutoff. For the baby and the mothers sake.

 

[Maschine_Man]

combine forced births with cuts in medicaid, food stamps and all that and this shyt is gonna be GLORIOUS. interesting times indeed.

Contraception and absitince are cheap though....

 

[David_TheMan]

Yea it's her body, but what about the baby's body? At what point is that person owed their right to life? Thus owed the protection of the law? This is a person who is completely defenseless. A person who feels ALL of the same things you do but can't verbalize it. Are they not owed protection?

Have you never asked yourself this question?

I have asked myself that question and I've simply provided you my answer.
Its ugly but at no time can the state be allowed to usurp control of a person's body against their will. Period. If the woman does not want the child she does not want the child, and it would be wrong morally to tie her up against her will and force pregnancy, it would be wrong to imprison or threaten to kill her if she doesn't want to continue the pregnancy and wants to abort. Just is no way getting around it and while I would hope a mother would allow her child to be born and choose adoption, chose to raise it in a loving home, I can't make a happy ending and giving the government the power to try to make it presents a greater societal threat than the alternative. So I have to side with the option of allowing the mother complete and total control over her body to length of pregnancy. After the child is porn I'm for full legal protection in not allowing a mother to cause the child harm, but until that point its primarily a right of the mother to her own body.

 

[hashmander]

Contraception and absitince are cheap though....

being for forced births and against contraception and any kind of sex ed goes hand in hand. and abstinence is for losers and unrealistic.

 

[Maschine_Man]

I have asked myself that question and I've simply provided you my answer.
Its ugly but at no time can the state be allowed to usurp control of a person's body against their will. Period. If the woman does not want the child she does not want the child, and it would be wrong morally to tie her up against her will and force pregnancy, it would be wrong to imprison or threaten to kill her if she doesn't want to continue the pregnancy and wants to abort. Just is no way getting around it and while I would hope a mother would allow her child to be born and choose adoption, chose to raise it in a loving home, I can't make a happy ending and giving the government the power to try to make it presents a greater societal threat than the alternative. So I have to side with the option of allowing the mother complete and total control over her body to length of pregnancy. After the child is porn I'm for full legal protection in not allowing a mother to cause the child harm, but until that point its primarily a right of the mother to her own body.

The government stops ppl from murdering ppl everyday, this is. No different.

 

[Maschine_Man]

being for forced births and against contraception and any kind of sex ed goes hand in hand. and abstinence is for losers and unrealistic.

I was saying that tongue in cheek really.

I'm for abortion.....until a set date, and I'm for sex Ed as well.

 

[levitate]

I'm pro-choice but I also believe that life begins at conception.

 

[David_TheMan]

Contraception and absitince are cheap though....

I agree they are very cheap, especially in comparison to the alternatives.

a late term abortion is a woman giving birth...to a baby they just killed.

If a woman hasn't figured it out by then she shouldn't be allowed to do it. There are hormonal imbalances and pregnancy depression and a whol wack of things going on in the woman's body. And the later you go on the more hormonal and imbalanced they become. At that point making rational decisions is a lot less likely as well.

There HAS to be a cutoff. For the baby and the mothers sake.

I know what a late term abortion is, and I understand your hestincy, but I simple disagree. As for claiming a pregnant woman is an irrational actor and there for should not be allowed to make a decision with regard to her body, I disagree entirely. If you go that extreme in infantilizing an adult woman to the point where she has no legal right or even legal standing to make decisions for her own well-being simply to stop an abortion, I think you have again invited a far bigger problem into society with the government you have given that power too, on top of violating the basic rights of self determination and agency to pregnant females. That is clearly wrong and a very totalitarian angle to take.

You say there has to be a cutoff, I think there is a easy cutoff delivery by the mother of the child voluntarily.

 

[tru_m.a.c]

No opinion on abortion. Keep it with women.

 

[Maschine_Man]

I agree they are very cheap, especially in comparison to the alternatives.



I know what a late term abortion is, and I understand your hestincy, but I simple disagree. As for claiming a pregnant woman is an irrational actor and there for should not be allowed to make a decision with regard to her body, I disagree entirely. If you go that extreme in infantilizing an adult woman to the point where she has no legal right or even legal standing to make decisions for her own well-being simply to stop an abortion, I think you have again invited a far bigger problem into society with the government you have given that power too, on top of violating the basic rights of self determination and agency to pregnant females. That is clearly wrong and a very totalitarian angle to take.

You say there has to be a cutoff, I think there is a easy cutoff delivery by the mother of the child voluntarily.

But here's the thing, when does personal accountability kick in?


Sex is optional. Any term abortion gives that women a second chance to erase that "mistake" but if she can't even make a decision up to 5 months, when does that accountability kick in. She's proving that she isn't mature enough to make rational or sane decisions on her own.

And at that point she should have no right to take another life because she can't make a decision, or cuz she made a mistake.

The government is stepping in for the protection of the baby at a certain point. Just like they do with a baby that is neglected after birth, or children later on.

Again, I'm all for a woman's right to choose, but 5 months? Cmon....that's more than enough time to figure out if you want it or not.

 

[Maschine_Man]

I agree they are very cheap, especially in comparison to the alternatives.



I know what a late term abortion is, and I understand your hestincy, but I simple disagree. As for claiming a pregnant woman is an irrational actor and there for should not be allowed to make a decision with regard to her body, I disagree entirely. If you go that extreme in infantilizing an adult woman to the point where she has no legal right or even legal standing to make decisions for her own well-being simply to stop an abortion, I think you have again invited a far bigger problem into society with the government you have given that power too, on top of violating the basic rights of self determination and agency to pregnant females. That is clearly wrong and a very totalitarian angle to take.

You say there has to be a cutoff, I think there is a easy cutoff delivery by the mother of the child voluntarily.

As for the irrational part...studies have shown that women go through stages of depression during and after pregnancy. Sometimes making tough decisions is hard. There have been women that have severely regretted their decisions and have gone further in depression and gotten suicidal.

That's where I was going with that.

 

[David_TheMan]

But here's the thing, when does personal accountability kick in?


Sex is optional. Any term abortion gives that women a second chance to erase that "mistake" but if she can't even make a decision up to 5 months, when does that accountability kick in. She's proving that she isn't mature enough to make rational or sane decisions on her own.

And at that point she should have no right to take another life because she can't make a decision, or cuz she made a mistake.

The government is stepping in for the protection of the baby at a certain point. Just like they do with a baby that is neglected after birth, or children later on.

Again, I'm all for a woman's right to choose, but 5 months? Cmon....that's more than enough time to figure out if you want it or not.

Personal accountability is always present, but no one has a right to force someone to do something against their will in an effort to hammer home your own personal values. In my view.
Sex is optional, but the woman's body is still hers to control entirely and she never gives that control away.
She has 100% the right to control her body period, the child's life doesn't suddenly take priority over her life, and the argument that the state or outside parties can usurp control of the pregnant mother's body acting on the will of the child, is specious at best considering there is no way we can even determine what the child wants because it can not communicate, and even if it could it can't demand anything of the mother with with the threat of force.

After a voluntary labor and birth if we want to say the child should be taken away fine, after proving offense and abuse, but until that time comes, again I have yet to see you provide a argument as to how the government can seize control of a woman's body, especially the argument you presented about a woman not being mentally competant to make that decision because of the pregnancy itself.

I don't see why there is a time limit on someone's self ownership of their body, either their body is theirs to do what they want with or it isn't and that power belongs to someone else and they are just a rentor of their own body. I don't subscribe to the latter view.

 

[David_TheMan]

As for the irrational part...studies have shown that women go through stages of depression during and after pregnancy. Sometimes making tough decisions is hard. There have been women that have severely regretted their decisions and have gone further in depression and gotten suicidal.

That's where I was going with that.

No study shows that women are unable to make their own decisions and become so mentally strained that they can't be trusted to make decisions for themself. No study shows what they are trying to argue for the sake of expanded government power.

Yes making decisions can be tough, in certain situations they are life and death decisions, that said a person should never have their agency over their body taken away from them because their wishes and values conflicts with the one who has the most guns on their side.

As for regret, everyone has to live with their decisions, making laws to save people from regret seems like a terrible decision and again gives the government unchecked authority over the private lives of citizens.

 

[88m3]

well @David_TheMan I've got to hand it to you for being consistent unlike many "libertarians"

 

[David_TheMan]

well @David_TheMan I've got to hand it to you for being consistent unlike many "libertarians"

Depends on which sect of libertarians you listen to, paleo and minarchist might be against abortion, most anacaps don't agree that the government has the right to usurp control of the body, no matter how undesirable the action of abortion is.