Cavs GM need to talk the Clippers 
Kyrie Irving has asked the Cavs to trade him; Lebron blindsided by trade request
- Thread starter Skooby
- Start date
Nobody has. Yet this talking point is only aimed at Lebron
John Reena
Superstar
threattonature
Veteran
I posted in the Cavs offseason thread that the Cavs focus next season needs to be about developing the team without Lebron on the court. They can't have that man playing 40-41 minutes a game cause that doesn't give the rest of the team time to get comfortable with him off the floor. They have to drop him down to the 31-33 minute range even if it means losing some more games. If Lebron's minutes are dropped that gives the rest of the team time to know their roles when Lebron isn't on the court and will empower the other teammates to step up more and be more playmakers. RIght now Lebron's bench time is basically treated like Kyries time to get his shots up. Everybody talks about how Kyrie shot the ball more than Lebron but ignore that his usage rate goes way up after Lebron is off the floor. When they are actually on the floor together during those minutes Lebron is shooting more and has the ball in his hand more often.Kyrie takes more shots and has a higher usage than lebron...how much more can he have the ball?
he took the most shots on the team
and highest usage (with way less impact than lebron obviously)
there is a reason delly had more team impact outside of direst scoring than kyrie. The 2015-2016 stats, the championship season
Code:WITH and WITHOUT LeBron James WITH min per 48 | WITHOUT min per 48 | DIFFERENCE Frye + 3.9 8.2 + 22.8 | - 2.1 10.7 - 9.4 | +32.2 Delly + 5.6 16.8 + 16.0 | - 0.1 9.1 - 0.5 | +16.5 Shumpert + 3.4 12.5 + 13.1 | + 0.3 12.8 + 1.1 | +11.9 Thompson + 5.6 20.7 + 13.0 | - 0.9 8.8 - 4.9 | +17.9 Love + 6.7 27.4 + 11.7 | - 0.8 6.2 - 6.2 | +17.9 Smith + 5.3 26.9 + 9.5 | - 1.0 6.3 - 7.6 | +17.1 Irving + 4.2 23.6 + 8.5 | 0.0 10.0 0.0 | + 8.5 Jefferso + 1.0 7.3 + 6.6 | - 1.3 12.7 - 4.9 | +11.5 Williams + 1.9 15.8 + 5.8 | - 2.7 6.3 -20.6 | +26.3
These are outrageous numbers. The kind of difference LeBron makes is huge. Without LeBron on court, each player gets net losses across the board. With him, massive positives. The difference is staggering.
As a comparison, here are the same with-without +/- stats for the other members of the "Big 3". Or perhaps "massive 1 and biggish 2"?
Irving:
Code:WITH and WITHOUT Irving WITH WITHOUT "+/-" min per 48 "+/-" min per 48 DIFFERENCE James + 4.2 23.6 + 8.5 | + 5.4 20.4 + 12.7 | - 4.2 Smith + 2.3 22.2 + 5.0 | + 2.5 15.8 + 7.6 | - 2.6 Thompson + 4.4 27.7 + 7.6 | + 3.9 31.5 + 5.9 | + 1.7 Love + 2.8 23.1 + 5.8 | + 3.9 17.3 +10.8 | - 5.0 Shumpert + 1.1 13.0 + 4.1 | + 2.4 12.8 + 9.0 | - 4.9 Delly + 1.4 8.8 + 7.6 | + 4.3 19.8 +10.4 | - 2.8 Frye + 0.7 9.6 + 3.5 | + 0.6 9.2 + 3.1 | + 0.4 Jeffers + 0.6 8.0 + 3.6 | - 0.9 13.3 - 3.2 | + 6.8 Willia - 1.0 3.5 -13.7 | - 1.0 17.6 - 2.7 | -11.0
This doesn't paint Irving's impact on his teammates in a particularly positive light. He is getting big credit for stepping up in the Finals, but his impact based on regular season +/- is not as impressive, especially for a "superstar". Statistically, the other two of the Big 3 actually preferred when they are playing without Irving. And this applies to several others too. Dissing Irving might be a dangerous thing to do around here, so I will just say: basketball is a team game.
And Love:
Code:WITH and WITHOUT Love WITH | WITHOUT | +/- min per 48 | "+/-" min per 48 | DIFFERENCE James + 6.7 27.4 + 11.7 | + 1.8 9.7 + 8.9 | + 2.8 Irving + 2.8 23.1 + 5.8 | + 1.4 10.5 + 6.4 | - 0.6 Smith + 3.3 23.8 + 6.7 | + 0.9 8.4 + 5.1 | + 1.5 Thompson + 4.0 16.6 + 11.6 | + 0.7 12.4 + 2.7 | + 8.9 Shumpert + 2.8 11.0 + 12.2 | + 0.8 14.4 + 2.7 | + 9.6 Delly + 4.5 14.1 + 15.3 | + 0.8 11.4 + 3.4 | + 12.0 Frye - 1.0 5.0 - 9.6 | + 1.7 15.5 + 5.3 | - 14.9 Jefferson + 0.1 7.5 + 0.6 | - 0.7 11.5 - 2.9 | + 3.6 Williams + 1.4 14.7 + 4.6 | - 2.4 7.1 -16.2 | + 20.8
To honour the departing Delly, here is how the Cavs players played with and without him. Somehow Delly seems to add more value that the lesser 2 of the Big 3.
Delly:
Code:WITH and WITHOUT Delly WITH | WITHOUT | "+/-" min per 48 | "+/-" min per 48 | DIFFERENCE James +5.6 16.8 +16.0 | +3.0 20.4 +7.1 | +8.9 Irving +1.4 8.8 +7.6 | +2.8 24.7 +5.4 | +2.2 Smith +3.2 12.6 +12.2 | +1.2 19.4 +3.0 | +9.2 Thompson +3.0 15.2 +9.5 | +1.6 13.8 +5.6 | +3.9 Love +4.5 14.1 +15.3 | +1.4 18.5 +3.6 | +11.7 Shumpert +2.3 13.9 +7.9 | +1.4 11.7 +5.7 | +2.2 Frye +0.3 10.7 +1.3 | +1.0 7.7 +6.2 | -4.9 Jeffers +0.9 10.6 +4.1 | -1.5 8.4 -8.6 | +12.6 Williams +1.8 7.3 +11.8 | -2.4 14.7 -7.8 | +19.7
threattonature
Veteran
That's because Lebron is the only player that people say ridiculous shyt like "put him on the worst team in the league and he'll drag them to the finals" about.Nobody has. Yet this talking point is only aimed at Lebron
He kinda did that though
Kyrie takes more shots and has a higher usage than lebron...how much more can he have the ball?
he took the most shots on the team
and highest usage (with way less impact than lebron obviously)
there is a reason delly had more team impact outside of direst scoring than kyrie. The 2015-2016 stats, the championship season
Code:WITH and WITHOUT LeBron James WITH min per 48 | WITHOUT min per 48 | DIFFERENCE Frye + 3.9 8.2 + 22.8 | - 2.1 10.7 - 9.4 | +32.2 Delly + 5.6 16.8 + 16.0 | - 0.1 9.1 - 0.5 | +16.5 Shumpert + 3.4 12.5 + 13.1 | + 0.3 12.8 + 1.1 | +11.9 Thompson + 5.6 20.7 + 13.0 | - 0.9 8.8 - 4.9 | +17.9 Love + 6.7 27.4 + 11.7 | - 0.8 6.2 - 6.2 | +17.9 Smith + 5.3 26.9 + 9.5 | - 1.0 6.3 - 7.6 | +17.1 Irving + 4.2 23.6 + 8.5 | 0.0 10.0 0.0 | + 8.5 Jefferso + 1.0 7.3 + 6.6 | - 1.3 12.7 - 4.9 | +11.5 Williams + 1.9 15.8 + 5.8 | - 2.7 6.3 -20.6 | +26.3
These are outrageous numbers. The kind of difference LeBron makes is huge. Without LeBron on court, each player gets net losses across the board. With him, massive positives. The difference is staggering.
As a comparison, here are the same with-without +/- stats for the other members of the "Big 3". Or perhaps "massive 1 and biggish 2"?
Irving:
Code:WITH and WITHOUT Irving WITH WITHOUT "+/-" min per 48 "+/-" min per 48 DIFFERENCE James + 4.2 23.6 + 8.5 | + 5.4 20.4 + 12.7 | - 4.2 Smith + 2.3 22.2 + 5.0 | + 2.5 15.8 + 7.6 | - 2.6 Thompson + 4.4 27.7 + 7.6 | + 3.9 31.5 + 5.9 | + 1.7 Love + 2.8 23.1 + 5.8 | + 3.9 17.3 +10.8 | - 5.0 Shumpert + 1.1 13.0 + 4.1 | + 2.4 12.8 + 9.0 | - 4.9 Delly + 1.4 8.8 + 7.6 | + 4.3 19.8 +10.4 | - 2.8 Frye + 0.7 9.6 + 3.5 | + 0.6 9.2 + 3.1 | + 0.4 Jeffers + 0.6 8.0 + 3.6 | - 0.9 13.3 - 3.2 | + 6.8 Willia - 1.0 3.5 -13.7 | - 1.0 17.6 - 2.7 | -11.0
This doesn't paint Irving's impact on his teammates in a particularly positive light. He is getting big credit for stepping up in the Finals, but his impact based on regular season +/- is not as impressive, especially for a "superstar". Statistically, the other two of the Big 3 actually preferred when they are playing without Irving. And this applies to several others too. Dissing Irving might be a dangerous thing to do around here, so I will just say: basketball is a team game.
And Love:
Code:WITH and WITHOUT Love WITH | WITHOUT | +/- min per 48 | "+/-" min per 48 | DIFFERENCE James + 6.7 27.4 + 11.7 | + 1.8 9.7 + 8.9 | + 2.8 Irving + 2.8 23.1 + 5.8 | + 1.4 10.5 + 6.4 | - 0.6 Smith + 3.3 23.8 + 6.7 | + 0.9 8.4 + 5.1 | + 1.5 Thompson + 4.0 16.6 + 11.6 | + 0.7 12.4 + 2.7 | + 8.9 Shumpert + 2.8 11.0 + 12.2 | + 0.8 14.4 + 2.7 | + 9.6 Delly + 4.5 14.1 + 15.3 | + 0.8 11.4 + 3.4 | + 12.0 Frye - 1.0 5.0 - 9.6 | + 1.7 15.5 + 5.3 | - 14.9 Jefferson + 0.1 7.5 + 0.6 | - 0.7 11.5 - 2.9 | + 3.6 Williams + 1.4 14.7 + 4.6 | - 2.4 7.1 -16.2 | + 20.8
To honour the departing Delly, here is how the Cavs players played with and without him. Somehow Delly seems to add more value that the lesser 2 of the Big 3.
Delly:
Code:WITH and WITHOUT Delly WITH | WITHOUT | "+/-" min per 48 | "+/-" min per 48 | DIFFERENCE James +5.6 16.8 +16.0 | +3.0 20.4 +7.1 | +8.9 Irving +1.4 8.8 +7.6 | +2.8 24.7 +5.4 | +2.2 Smith +3.2 12.6 +12.2 | +1.2 19.4 +3.0 | +9.2 Thompson +3.0 15.2 +9.5 | +1.6 13.8 +5.6 | +3.9 Love +4.5 14.1 +15.3 | +1.4 18.5 +3.6 | +11.7 Shumpert +2.3 13.9 +7.9 | +1.4 11.7 +5.7 | +2.2 Frye +0.3 10.7 +1.3 | +1.0 7.7 +6.2 | -4.9 Jeffers +0.9 10.6 +4.1 | -1.5 8.4 -8.6 | +12.6 Williams +1.8 7.3 +11.8 | -2.4 14.7 -7.8 | +19.7
Taking more shots is not why Kyrie wants out.
He wants out because regardless of that, he's still the sidekick. After winning he's ready to have his own team and build a legacy of winning outside of LeBron.
I fail to see why people are having a hard time understanding this. Not everyone is okay being Scottie Pippen their whole career.
Curtis Nightfish
▓▓▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▓▓
....NOT. I COVERED THIS IN MY ARTICLE LAST WEEK:
Kyrie Irving Requested A Trade Because LeBron James Hinders Teammates. : ThyBlackMan.com
street heat
merchant of death
we all get that.... but irving cant be the best player on a chamionship team, so if he wants to win titles hes eventually going to need to pair with some better than himself.
hes going to find its not easy being the man, and brons presence helped him a lot.
Jordan>>LeFrozen
It was written in the Bible
Who's says they Kyrie won't develop into a leader of a finals team? Nikka only 25, he has a couple more years to reach that level if he stays healthy. Like I said before, nikkas said kobe couldn't win womithout shaq. He won two. Now don't get me wrong, Kyrie and kobe, but you never know what the future holds.
street heat
merchant of death
unless hes going to impact the game with more than scoring he cant be the best player. you have to understand the level of players who lead teams to championships. bron, kobe, shaq, tim duncan, MJ............ do you really believe he can be in this class and impact the game the way they have ? because that is what its going to take, especially with how stacked one team is.
hes never going to have a positive impact defensively, and he doesnt seem into creating for others that much..... so how can he ever be in that class ? im not knocking kyrie but its time to be realistic.
Donald Trumps Twitter
Divine Infinite Commander King
Jordan>>LeFrozen
It was written in the Bible
All of that is right now though. He came into the league carrying that shyt franchise and then became a second fiddle. Kyrie with a decent team and more years of experience, granting he stays healthy, can develop. Nobody truly knows what's going to happen and it's not impossible for him to pick up passing somewhere down the line. You must be young too, because although he had more of tools to his game than Kyrie, this was some of the same shyt people said when Shaq was traded and kobe was the man. I remember those days like it was yesterday.
street heat
merchant of death
kobe is 6'6 and impacts the game defensively.
playmaking comes naturally. please tell me what team he can be on where he is the best player and they can beat the warriors......
More often, but not for as long.
Lebron frontcourt touches per game: 70.3 (14th in the NBA)
Kyrie frontcourt touches per game: 66.2 (19th in the NBA)
Kyrie average time with ball per possession: 6.4 seconds (14th in the league)
Lebron average time with ball possession: 6.1 seconds (18th in the league)
Even if Kyrie doesn't touch it as much with Lebron in there, Lebron still has the ball in his hands for a minority of each possession. Kyrie has a LOT of time to do what he wants with the ball.
Kyrie average possession time per touch: 4.85 seconds (35th in the league)
Lebron average possession time per touch: 4.12 seconds (79th in the league)
Kyrie average dribbles per touch: 4.7 (40th in the league)
Lebron average dribbles per touch: 3.2 (110th in the league)
And Lebron doesn't hold onto the ball as long or dribble around as much when he does touch it either.
"Bron ball" is a myth.