Let’s have a conversation about Jimmy Butler...

[Conscious Pilot]

1) Is there another max player in the league that could be the 4th leading scorer on his own team in the conference finals and still be immune to any criticism?

I’ll play along....



Rudy Gobert is getting a Max or something close to it this off-season

 

[HacksawJimThuggin]

1) Is there another max player in the league that is leading his 5th seeded team to one game of the NBA Finals that is still being criticized for allegedly "underperforming" ??

Is there another max player who could be the 4th leading scorer on his squad and not really doing anything otherworldly that you’d still give credit to for “leading” his team?

Rather than it just being rhetorical, I’m honestly trying to think how that would play out... the only other person I could think of was CP3 leading OKC to an improbable WCF run while not really scoring all that much in the process. But even then, 3 other people averaging more than him and OKC still being ahead is kind of hard to fathom.

 

[10bandz]

yall shytted on him for being a team killer and going to Miuami, now he's close to the FInals with Miami because he empowered his teammates and yall still wanna shyt on him. He's scoring could be higher but he's taking over plenty of 4th qtrs this playoff. The Heat play a certain way and Jimmy presence makes everything work.

 

[2Quik4UHoes]

I think Giannis would complete them as a team. Him or Embiid. Not on no trade shyt tho, would have to be a straight up signing.

 

[HacksawJimThuggin]

I’ll play along....



Rudy Gobert is getting a Max or something close to it this off-season

That’s a great answer. I think the difference is that Gobert is kind of known to be a defensive anchor who’s never going to carry you offensively. I think the Jazz and Heat are fairly similar in having a perimeter player being their leader and carrying the scoring load while the big anchors the defense. But to your example, if Mitchell was in the WCF and had 3 other Jazz players outscoring him, I imagine there would be at least ONE person in the media being like “he’s gotta be better on offense”, no?

 

[JackRoss]

Oh yall trying to put him at a Khris Middleton level? I hope not. Scoring and offense isn't the entire game. I would have loved to see him in Houston. Jimmy good money. He's not the superstars level but he damn sure not Wiggins or Middleton level either. Did I miss a level? Bradley Beal level?

I want him to win a ring

 

[HacksawJimThuggin]

yall shytted on him for being a team killer and going to Miuami, now he's close to the FInals with Miami because he empowered his teammates and yall still wanna shyt on him. He's scoring could be higher but he's taking over plenty of 4th qtrs this playoff. The Heat play a certain way and Jimmy presence makes everything work.

I agree with you... but it’s the chicken and the egg argument - do the Heat role players step up because Jimmy gives them confidence to do so or do they HAVE to step up because he’s not someone capable giving you 25 consistently. As I said in my earlier post earlier, I think it’s a lot harder to gameplan from Spo’s perspective when you don’t really know where your points are going to come from and you’re forced to ride the hot hand on a nightly basis. The issue arises when those other guys are all off and all of a sudden your best player isn’t really taking the initiative to force the issue. Again, the reason this thread was made was a game like tonight (which isn’t an isolated incident) where the Heat are struggling offensively and our alpha guy has 11 shots and never really tries to assert his will on the game.

 

[10bandz]

I agree with you... but it’s the chicken and the egg argument - do the Heat role players step up because Jimmy gives them confidence to do so or do they HAVE to step up because he’s not someone capable giving you 25 consistently. As I said in my earlier post earlier, I think it’s a lot harder to gameplan from Spo’s perspective when you don’t really know where your points are going to come from and you’re forced to ride the hot hand on a nightly basis. The issue arises when those other guys are all off and all of a sudden your best player isn’t really taking the initiative to force the issue. Again, the reason this thread was made was a game like tonight (which isn’t an isolated incident) where the Heat are struggling offensively and our alpha guy has 11 shots and never really tries to assert his will on the game.

It's the bolded. Plus when the Heat need Jimmy to step up he's been doing it simple as that. The only player still playing averaging more 4th qtr ppg than Jimmy is Jamal Murray. Shooting 55% and 41% from 3 in the 4th. He's taken over games in this very series.

I agree tonight he should've been more aggressive especially in the 4th. Went 0-1. But its not because he's not capable, it's because he's just trying too hard to be on his trust his teammates shyt. He definitely needs to say fukk it once in a while and just take over the offense.

 

[HacksawJimThuggin]

Oh yall trying to put him at a Khris Middleton level? I hope not. Scoring and offense isn't the entire game. I would have loved to see him in Houston. Jimmy good money. He's not the superstars level but he damn sure not Wiggins or Middleton level either. Did I miss a level? Bradley Beal level?

I want him to win a ring

You know what’s wild.. that’s kind of the reason the question was asked. I think because of his skill set and intangibles, it’s kind of hard to put him in a tier.

As far as on the court, I don’t think Middleton is that far off as far as strictly an on the court comparison. Obviously their skill sets are different; I’m just talking about where they stand in the league as far as ability. BUT Jimmy’s intangibles and ability to lead a team are far beyond Middleton’s and that’s what separate him as a player. I’d put Jimmy’s leadership ability up there with Bron and CP3 as far as them being able to instill confidence in teammates and make them better. BUT those guys can take over whole games when called upon and lead by example and that’s not really something I’ve seen from Jimmy on a consistent basis this year.

 

[Rigby.]

def adds some non statistical value that can never be truly accounted for, but his driving has been primarily aimless in the past few games. They're really starting to score in spite of him. between Iggy driving with the first idea to pass and Jimmy either doing that or running into the player, you can see why Boston has had an increasingly easy job of locking the "others" down

not to mention Crowder being a brickfest and Olynyk, Jones and Nunn contributing basically nothing in their spot minutes, Jimmy the passer isnt very valuable to them right now

 

[JackRoss]

You know what’s wild.. that’s kind of the reason the question was asked. I think because of his skill set and intangibles, it’s kind of hard to put him in a tier.

As far as on the court, I don’t think Middleton is that far off as far as strictly an on the court comparison. Obviously their skill sets are different; I’m just talking about where they stand in the league as far as ability. BUT Jimmy’s intangibles and ability to lead a team are far beyond Middleton’s and that’s what separate him as a player. I’d put Jimmy’s leadership ability up there with Bron and CP3 as far as them being able to instill confidence in teammates and make them better. BUT those guys can take over whole games when called upon and lead by example and that’s not really something I’ve seen from Jimmy on a consistent basis this year.

I'm bias because he's a Bulls legend. The gears thing sounds dumb but this nikka WILL is crazy. He's obviously a leader but when he's "missing" you notice it because he's a bull. Like he don't need to be hot to influence a game but when shyt be needed defensively, especially, defensively he turns up. He's a difficult player to rank. If he goes off for 30, I be shocked lol. I can't explain it besides tangibles

 

[Biscayne]

I can understand that. But at the same time, he’s a max player. It’s always wild when my boys and I are in the group chat talking about Jimmy having no faith in his J and overpassing and the national narrative is “such an unselfish leader to be okay with not getting up a lot of shots” like it’s not his own fault and sometimes, and occasionally to the detriment of the team.

It gets frustrating. Can’t lie. Jimmy led us here. So I still trust him, but dang it, NOBODIES shot was falling in that 3rd quarter. Jimmy needed to take over. When it seemed like that Jimmy/Bam pick n roll was going good for Miami, Jimmy got his 4th foul and had to be taken out. But they should’ve went to that Jimmy/Bam action sooner. Like before Boston took the lead. The finals were on the line. You can’t just come out the half like that. That can’t happen. The whole team seemed flat. And that’s when Jimmy needed to be Jimmy. I don’t need 40pts from Jimmy, just give me 28.

 

[duncanthetall]

We also turned off half our roster and literally every single player, to a man, has exceeded expectations. You also didn’t answer my questions. My “agenda” isn’t “Jimmy Butler isn’t good” it’s “Jimmy Butler might not be good ENOUGH” for purposes of the way the current Heat team is constructed. I get they’re playing with house money but now that the supporting cast is playing at the level they are, that’s not something that you just ignore. Dude is the max player and leader of a team on the brink of the Finals and he isn’t a guy you can count on to give you 25 a night. You can say with the way the team plays, it’s a different guy going off every night, but I think it’s more of a result of Jimmy not being a bonafide go-to guy on a nightly basis.

Anytime anyone doesn’t slob all over Butler dude loses his shyt

 

[Primetime]

There's something here...

He's shooting .435/.222 while averaging 18.4ppg this series, thats 2.5 ppg below his postseason average while taking 0.8 more shots per game to his playoff average. Just for reference...

The answer is no, no player of his caliber, a guy who's a 3x All-NBA guy, would be able to skate criticism like this. I think the saving grace is that he's already shown to be greater than what the consensus opinion was of him a year ago---->team cancer, glorified role player, can't be the best guy on a championship team...

He's already blown thru those opinions, so now he's in the honeymoon stage where the expectations haven't been fully raised for him yet.

For comparison, Pandemic P averaged 21.7ppg (.435/.383) vs Denver, and was deemed a passive mentality soft p*ssy.

Which he kinda is... but, to your point, it does show how narratives/expectations frame how comparable performances are critiqued.

Jimmy was only expected to be the best player on the floor vs Indiana. So what now for him?

 

[Kunty McPhuck]

As they say sharing is caring. Jimmy trusts these teammates, so he is more giving when he should be more selfish at times.

He probably is a #2, just due to his scoring being so up and down, but he definitely a #1 in terms of his mentality, leadership and work ethic.