Nah, Duncan could win games when his team needed him to. So could Dirk.
This other guy we're talking about... Don't even know why we're discussing him to be honest
lets talk about Dirk Nowitzki handing Father Time his first L
- Thread starter the cool
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This other guy we're talking about... Don't even know why we're discussing him to be honest
What seasons specifically do you believe KG's defense went ghost when "it mattered the most"?Nah, I'm pointing out how overrated his defense was.
All you back in the day ass dudes hype his defense up. shyt went GHOST when it mattered the most. At least Dirk's offense came up big in the big moments.
Whenever the Wolves needed KGs defense the most vs the premier frontcourt players of his era (Shaq, Duncan, Dirk), he got raped no vaseline.
KGs defense really only mattered in meaningless regular season games or if he had 2 All-Stars around him. He wasn't stopping or affecting shyt vs the players he ACTUALLY needed to defend.
But the way you tell it, KGs defense actually meant something vs good competition.
What good is KGs defense when it was nonexistent vs the best players he was supposed to lock down?
Yo, I got a nice Ferrari in the garage. It's fast as fukk breh. It'll smoke your little Honda.
But it only starts up in May
This is a horrible post.
Goatpoacher
Superstar
so 2007 Devin Harris, Josh Howard, and 6th man Jason Terry is "shyt load of talent?"
But 06 Shaq, Walker, Payton, White Chocolate, Mourning, Haslem, Posey is trash.
If that 2007 team won a ring that year, it would have been the worst roster to win a ring in the last 20 years. Fact.
Devin Haris, Adrian Griffin, Josh Howard, Eric Dampier, Jason Terry, Desagana Diop, and whoever the fukk else was on that team. That's a 67 win team and a "shyt load of talent."
Did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe, Dirk carried that team? Maybe, just mabye, those guys were bums who probably wouldn't win 20 games without Dirk?
Nah. That team had a "shyt load of talent"
That 2006 roster was talented... if it had been 1998. Everybody was over the hill on that team except for D. Wade.
And yes, that 2007 Mavs team was talented. Dampier, while crap, was one of the better big men in the league at that time. Howard was a beast on both ends. Harris was a beast as a backup. It was at least as talented as KG"s most talented Timberwolves team that featured an over the hill Sprewell and Cassell, a team that would have made the Finals if not for an injury.
And no, the 2007 Mavs team was better than the 2011 Mavs team. Honestly, Dirk was fukking amazing in 2011. He had a playoff run better than anything KG ever put together. However, you can't use that one post season to inflate his entire career.
and Dirk never played defense. :JJ:
How you gonna say shyt like this and not apply this to Dirk.
I can't imagine a world where Josh fukking Howard is an All-Star without Dirk. See how easy that was?
I can't imagine a world where a starting 5 of Devin Harris, Adrian Griffin, Josh fukking Howard, ____________, and Eric Dampier make the NBA Finals running through the 06 Spurs and 06 Suns without Dirk. See how easy that was?
Now you wanna act like Duncan made his teammates, but you don't wanna use this same logic for Dirk? He routinely carried league average players to 50+ wins for over a decade.
He played with Finley when Finley was on his last legs. He played with Nash before he went to Phoenix and became MVSteve. He MADE Josh Howard same way Duncan "made" Parker (which is total bullshyt, but I'ma let you cook). He played with geriatric Jason Kidd who couldn't even score 10ppg and would pass up layups under the hoop to kick it out for 23 footers.
Oh, and as far as the FGAs and scoring efficienty, that's where Dirk reigns supreme. Does most of his scoring from outside 15 feet and is deadly efficient. The exact opposite of a volume shooter. Dirk can drop 25 points on 15 or less FGAs and has done so routinely throughout his career.
Goatpoacher
Superstar
Nah, Duncan could win games when his team needed him to. So could Dirk.
This other guy we're talking about... Don't even know why we're discussing him to be honest
Now you're proving you're a delusional stan. KG and Dirk are closer to each other than they are to Tim Duncan.
I'm not talking seasons, I'm talking games/moments where it mattered the MOST.
When did KG's defense show out and prove to be the great factor it's always been hyped up to be when he faced the premier frontcourt players of his era (Duncan, Shaq, Dirk)?
KG was a monster defensively. I'm not denying this. But I also realize that he routinely got abused by guys at his position when his team needed him the most. Kawhi puts in work vs Durant and Lebron. He's not just locking down the Al Faruq Aminus of the world. He does it against elite competition.
KG never put that work in vs Dirk, Duncan, and Shaq. You know, the guys who needed that DPOY KG-floor-slapping face-grimacing intensity the most. KG dominated league average and even above average 4s and 5s.
But where that defense at vs. the elite guys? Why should I value KGs defense so much in playoff series if he's getting matched up vs an elite 4 and getting roasted?
Agreed.
yseJ
Empire strikes back
shooters generally age well. however, its possible that release gets less quicker and it will probably cause steph problems if it happens.
duckbutta
eienaar van mans
Josh Howard was a good nba player in his own right...there was no faucet of his game that made me say "man it is a good thing he got Dirk to do XXX because he sucks at it"...knee injuries and weed and not singing the national anthem ruined his career
Where as Tony Parker...I would say "It's a good thing he got Duncan to command all these double teams because he can't make a shot past the freethrow line." Parker dominating in the paint was as much out of necessity as it was skill.
Finley was on his last legs in Dallas but he played for Swag Antonio 5 years after he left Dallas and was a key reason why they won a chip
Now you're just lying.
Tyson Chandler was the best big Dirk ever played with. That was in 2011, not 2007. Jason Terry was much better in 2011 than he was in 2007. Haywood and Barea coming off the bench was better than our bench in 2007. Stevenson was great off the bench defender. Better than anything we had in 2007. Shawn Marion is probably the best SF Dirk ever played with. Again, 2011, not 2007. Jason Kidd was a better floor general and ran the offense better than Harris ever did. Harris could score more, but Kidd could dictate the game much much better. Again, 2011.
We could have used Marion, Stevenson, and Tyson's defense vs the Warriors in 2007.
So again, tell me how 2007 Mavs were so good outside of Dirk? That team was honestly shyt outside of Dirk. The entire NBA world knew this, which is why Dirk won the MVP in 2007. Cause that team had no business winning 67 games, but did so because of how good Dirk was.
At the end of the day, yes, he and his team fell short in the playoffs. But it's laughable how you guys try to hype that 2007 team.
Spurs had Bowen, Duncan, Parker, Ginboli. Suns had Amar'e, Nash, Marion, and Barbosa. Mavs had Harris, Griffin, Howard, Terry, and Dirk.
Only your delusional ass could really think Dirk had the type of squad those Suns and Spurs had in that era. Dirk did HEAVY lifting. He had a few pieces, but by no means did he have a "shyt load of talent" like you said.
Key reason? Really? He came off the bench and wasJosh Howard was a good nba player in his own right...there was no faucet of his game that made me say "man it is a good thing he got Dirk to do XXX because he sucks at it"...knee injuries and weed and not singing the national anthem ruined his career
Where as Tony Parker...I would say "It's a good thing he got Duncan to command all these double teams because he can't make a shot past the freethrow line." Parker dominating in the paint was as much out of necessity as it was skill.
Finley was on his last legs in Dallas but he played for Swag Antonio 5 years after he left Dallas and was a key reason why they won a chip
He was like Gary Payton when he won a ring on the Heat.Finley averaged 9ppg that reg season. Spurs were clearly a core of Duncan, Manu, Parker, and Bowen. Finley was there the way JJ Barea was there for us in 2011. Key reason, nah. Solid role player at best.
And for the bolded, in your previous post you just talked about how Duncan created open looks for Parker and Ginobli. Why is it escaping you that Dirk did the same for his Dallas teammates?
Is it really so hard to believe that the GOAT shooting big man created so much confusion and effective floor spacing that he was able to create tons of open looks for his teammates? It's an aspect of Duncan and Dirk that no box score, Win Shares, or PER can measure. But you seem to only want to acknowledge this for Duncan "making" Tony Parker but completely disregard it for Dirk...
You being real biased here. It's facetious to act like Duncan made his teammates cause of floor spacing and defensive attention but not give Dirk that same credit. By all means, Josh Howard couldn't do shyt on his own. As an ISO player, as a post player, as anything but getting open looks or putbacks. He was ass. When he no longer had Dirk creating all those looks for him, he was out of the league faster than Austin Rivers.
Goatpoacher
Superstar
It's funny how you talk in circles about Dirk, defending him in ways that apply more fully to KG. Take a look at KG's roster in his MVP year. How does that stack up to the 2007 Mavs?
Dirk consistently had more talent on his rosters than KG did as a Timberwolf. You're complaining his 2007 roster was not as good as Tim Duncan's team? STeve Nash team? However, you KG haters clown him for losing in the first round against superior teams when he was a timber wolf?
It is an indisputable fact that when KG was given decent talent, his teams exceeded expectations. Again, he went to the WCF with Sprewell and Cassell when they were in the pre-screening for Larry Holmes Garden. That team had nobody else. He went to the FInals in 2010 with over the hill players at ever position. KG was criticized for losing even when he had shytty rosters. Dirk was criticized for losing even when he had talent around him. Big difference.
I'm not trying to argue Dirk is comparable to Duncan. Cause he's not. I'm just stating that they both had very similar effects on the basketball court in terms of wrecking defensive gameplans and creating amazing floor spacing for their teammates.
Teams were deathly afraid of Duncan in the post. They would either double team or rotate their entire defense to shade him. That opened it up for his teammates. We all know this.
Teams were deathly afraid of Dirk from midrange and beyond. They would either double team or rotate their entire defense to shade him. It was a key reason why we lost in 2007. Don Nelson knew how to "surprise" Dirk. Everything Dirk touched the ball, Nelson had a GSW player come from BACKSIDE and try to either force a steal or bad, rushed pass.
It worked. Dirk look flustered and didn't know how to deal with it. He worked on it in the offseason and that strategy never worked again.
But the point I'm trying to make is that they both were 2 of the very best of their generation in terms of floor spacing and getting their teammates open looks.
I don't believe KG ever had this effect. If KG ever got the ball, whether it was in the post or an 18 footer, teams were mostly content letting him eat. If KG was gonna score, he was gonna score. Teams didn't seem terrified of KG dropping 40 on them. They weren't scared of KG taking over and being an unstoppable scoring machine. I know that offense is only 1 part of the game, but again, KG's defense didn't do shyt vs the elite 4s he SHOULD have had some sort of defensive effect on. So if the defense ain't there to slow down Duncan, Dirk, or Shaq, and he can't really open it up for his teammates or take over the game himself, what is he really doing that's franchise player number 1 option out there?
Teams were deathly afraid of Duncan in the post. They would either double team or rotate their entire defense to shade him. That opened it up for his teammates. We all know this.
Teams were deathly afraid of Dirk from midrange and beyond. They would either double team or rotate their entire defense to shade him. It was a key reason why we lost in 2007. Don Nelson knew how to "surprise" Dirk. Everything Dirk touched the ball, Nelson had a GSW player come from BACKSIDE and try to either force a steal or bad, rushed pass.
It worked. Dirk look flustered and didn't know how to deal with it. He worked on it in the offseason and that strategy never worked again.
But the point I'm trying to make is that they both were 2 of the very best of their generation in terms of floor spacing and getting their teammates open looks.
I don't believe KG ever had this effect. If KG ever got the ball, whether it was in the post or an 18 footer, teams were mostly content letting him eat. If KG was gonna score, he was gonna score. Teams didn't seem terrified of KG dropping 40 on them. They weren't scared of KG taking over and being an unstoppable scoring machine. I know that offense is only 1 part of the game, but again, KG's defense didn't do shyt vs the elite 4s he SHOULD have had some sort of defensive effect on. So if the defense ain't there to slow down Duncan, Dirk, or Shaq, and he can't really open it up for his teammates or take over the game himself, what is he really doing that's franchise player number 1 option out there?
The 2007 team was almost identical to the 2006 team. And that 2006 team Dirk was 2 games from winning a title.
That team was just as full of mediocre players as the 2007 team I detailed above. No Nash, no Finley, no Kidd, no Tyson, no Monta Ellis. He took THAT team to the Finals.
I know KG had a lot of shytty teams. But Dirk wasn't exactly working with amazing talent when he carried those bums to 6 games in the NBA Finals. KG made the WCF once. What else did he do with role players? We know what Dirk did with role players.
That's the difference for me. Dirk could consistently elevate his teams to play beyond their talent level. KG couldn't. Put Kevin Garnett in a starting 5 of Harris, Griffin, Howard, and Dampier. They beating those Spurs? They beating those Suns?
We all know damn well Duncan would have dropped the same amount of points on KG that he did on Dirk. Difference is KG wouldn't have been able to make up for it on the offensive end the way Dirk was.