lets talk about Dirk Nowitzki handing Father Time his first L

[Codeine Bryant]

Anyways, I've stated my 2 cents far more than I should have. We're just going in circles now.

 

[Goatpoacher]

That's the difference for me. Dirk could consistently elevate his teams to play beyond their talent level. KG couldn't. Put Kevin Garnett in a starting 5 of Harris, Griffin, Howard, and Dampier. They beating those Spurs? They beating those Suns?

KG made it to the WCF with less talent than that though.

ALso, you're Dirk v. KG head to head bullshyt has to stop

24 points, 18.7 boards, 5 assists and 2 blocks a game.
33.3 points, 15.7 rebounds, 3 steals and 1.3 blocks game

So KG was putting up 24 and 19, while playing infinitely better defense than Dirk? Defense is a team exercise. Check KG's actual defense rating up to 2011. You're acting like a kobestan selectively editing and choosing stats that were without context in the first place.

KG v. Dirk in their primes is like arguing Lebron v. KD today. Not many people would take KD over Lebron.

 

[Goatpoacher]

Anyways, I've stated my 2 cents far more than I should have. We're just going in circles now.

Until next time

 

[duckbutta]

Key reason? Really? He came off the bench and was He was like Gary Payton when he won a ring on the Heat.

Finley averaged 9ppg that reg season. Spurs were clearly a core of Duncan, Manu, Parker, and Bowen. Finley was there the way JJ Barea was there for us in 2011. Key reason, nah. Solid role player at best.

And for the bolded, in your previous post you just talked about how Duncan created open looks for Parker and Ginobli. Why is it escaping you that Dirk did the same for his Dallas teammates?

Is it really so hard to believe that the GOAT shooting big man created so much confusion and effective floor spacing that he was able to create tons of open looks for his teammates? It's an aspect of Duncan and Dirk that no box score, Win Shares, or PER can measure. But you seem to only want to acknowledge this for Duncan "making" Tony Parker but completely disregard it for Dirk...

You being real biased here. It's facetious to act like Duncan made his teammates cause of floor spacing and defensive attention but not give Dirk that same credit. By all means, Josh Howard couldn't do shyt on his own. As an ISO player, as a post player, as anything but getting open looks or putbacks. He was ass. When he no longer had Dirk creating all those looks for him, he was out of the league faster than Austin Rivers.

Because Dirk is a 7 foot jump shooter who plays on the perimeter and for the majority of his career nobody is doubling him...there is just no point...he is to tall and shoots to well... an extra guy is not going to bother his jump shot at all...and i'm one of those guys who is at my 7 foot man being a "floor spacer"...

Where as Duncan for his career has been an elite level inside scorer so if you let him go one on one he is just going to single handily destroy your team. You absolutely had to double him in the post or he is going to score a ton and get all your bigs in foul trouble...so soon as the double team comes he kicks it out and from that point on it is just a matter of time for before someone gets an open shot due to the defense scrambling.

And I am pretty sure it was the career ending knee injuries and weed that did Josh Howard in and not that he all of a sudden stopped playing with Dirk...

Is Dirk great? Yeah.

Is he a HOF? He got a ring now so I guess so...people who score like he does and win a ring go into the HOF...

Better than KG...nah sorry defense is to important to me...the one thing that Dirk is better at that KG is predicated on how many shots Dirk takes vs how many shots KG takes...everything else basketball related that doesn't boil down to attempts KG is better at and it's not even particularly close...

Did Dirk make his Dallas teammates better...probably...but he has also been an extreme liability on defense his entire career...

Dallas damn near has to get a defensive minded center exclusively because Dirk is so horrendous as it...they borderline have to get a defensive minded small forward for the exact same reason...so there is a certain set of big men they could never realistically play with Dirk...they couldn't go after Kanter for example...him and Dirk on the floor at the same time would be atrocious

But KG...KG can play with any big man...You could get an all time great defensive big man and KG offensive game for his career is versatile enough that he can drop 20 a night and make it work...

 

[Codeine Bryant]

KG made it to the WCF with less talent than that though.

ALso, you're Dirk v. KG head to head bullshyt has to stop

24 points, 18.7 boards, 5 assists and 2 blocks a game.
33.3 points, 15.7 rebounds, 3 steals and 1.3 blocks game

So KG was putting up 24 and 19, while playing infinitely better defense than Dirk? Defense is a team exercise. Check KG's actual defense rating up to 2011. You're acting like a kobestan selectively editing and choosing stats that were without context in the first place.

KG v. Dirk in their primes is like arguing Lebron v. KD today. Not many people would take KD over Lebron.

How is he playing "infinitely better defense" when HIS MAN is dropping 33.3 points a game

I mean seriously, what in the fukk kind of defense are we hyping up here


I know Dirk didn't play defense. At all. Ever. I fully acknowledge that. But when will you realize that KG's "defense" was flat out nonexistent when his team needed it the MOST. I don't give a fukk what KG did in game 64 of the regular season in 2004. Sorry breh, that really doesn't mean shyt.

You wanna clown Dirk for 2007 MVP, fine. You wanna clown Dirk for choking in 2007, fine. You wanna clown Dirk for choking in 2006, fine.

How about you hop off KG's reg season stats and clown him for his nonexistent defense anytime he played Shaq, Duncan, or Dirk in the playoffs. You willing to do that?


Nah. Apparently letting your man score goddamn 33.3PPG over a series is "infinitely better defense" and needs to be lauded.

Bravo.

 

[Codeine Bryant]

This the same board that clowns LeBron for letting Kawhi (his man) beast in the 2014 finals.

But then we gonna give KG a pass everytime his man (Dirk in this case) absolutely roasts in him in their 2002 matchup. And Shaq and Duncan would have the same success when matched up against him.


I just don't get it. Whatever.

 

[Goatpoacher]

How is he playing "infinitely better defense" when HIS MAN is dropping 33.3 points a game

I mean seriously, what in the fukk kind of defense are we hyping up here


I know Dirk didn't play defense. At all. Ever. I fully acknowledge that. But when will you realize that KG's "defense" was flat out nonexistent when his team needed it the MOST. I don't give a fukk what KG did in game 64 of the regular season in 2004. Sorry breh, that really doesn't mean shyt.

You wanna clown Dirk for 2007 MVP, fine. You wanna clown Dirk for choking in 2007, fine. You wanna clown Dirk for choking in 2006, fine.

How about you hop off KG's reg season stats and clown him for his nonexistent defense anytime he played Shaq, Duncan, or Dirk in the playoffs. You willing to do that?


Nah. Apparently letting your man score goddamn 33.3PPG over a series is "infinitely better defense" and needs to be lauded.

Bravo.

I guess we're not done yet :JJ:

You can play solid defense and still get burned by a great offensive player. The Timberwolves actually made a mistake by putting KG on Dirk. Dirk, at least back then, was best defended by smaller SF's. KG getting burned despite his defensive effort is better than Dirk not playing any defense in the first place.

Dirk is like Curry, he really can't be stopped when he's hot. He was hot against KG. So did he win the championship that year? Let's see what happened in the next round....

Lost to the Kings? Real defensive Juggernauts.. His FG percentage dropped to 40 percent? He was outplayed by Chris Webber?

I guess Chris Webber > Dirk :JJ:

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

I'm not talking seasons, I'm talking games/moments where it mattered the MOST.

I'm asking what seasons where he had games/moments as you're suggesting where his defense went "ghost"?

When did KG's defense show out and prove to be the great factor it's always been hyped up to be when he faced the premier frontcourt players of his era (Duncan, Shaq, Dirk)?

His defense was more often than not a great factor when it came to playing teams with premier frontcourt players. Anybody that says any different obviously weren't watching too many T'Wolves games back then. He did this shyt from about his second season in. He always brought it on the defensive end, in every quarter, in every game.

KG was a monster defensively. I'm not denying this. But I also realize that he routinely got abused by guys at his position when his team needed him the most. Kawhi puts in work vs Durant and Lebron. He's not just locking down the Al Faruq Aminus of the world. He does it against elite competition.

And so did KG.

These are the games where KG held [had the most influence] Duncan to below his typical FG%:

Duncan 1-8 (12%) against Minnesota in 2005
Duncan 2-13 (14%) against Boston in 2012
Duncan 2-10 (20%) against Minnesota in 1999
Duncan 5-19 (26%) against Minnesota in 2006
Duncan 5-17 (29%) against Minnesota in 2003
Duncan 8-24 (33%) against Minnesota in 2004
Duncan 5-15 (33%) against Minnesota in 1999 (playoffs)
Duncan 5-15 (33%) against Minnesota in 2005
Duncan 4-12 (33%) against Boston in 2012
Duncan 8-23 (34%) against Minnesota in 2001 (playoffs)
Duncan 8-23 (34%) against Minnesota in 2004
Duncan 6-17 (35%) against Minnesota in 1999 (playoffs)
Duncan 7-20 (35%) against Minnesota in 2001
Duncan 7-19 (36%) against Minnesota in 2001
Duncan 7-18 (38%) against Minnesota in 1999

There's about a dozen more games where KG was limiting Duncan to below his season average % - this is all without mentioning all the other shyt he did on the defensive end as well.

KG never put that work in vs Dirk, Duncan, and Shaq. You know, the guys who needed that DPOY KG-floor-slapping face-grimacing intensity the most. KG dominated league average and even above average 4s and 5s.

This couldn't be further from the truth.

These are the games where KG held [had the most influence] Dirk to below his typical FG%:

Dirk 4-17 (23%) against Boston in 2009
Dirk 2-8 (25%) against Minnesota in 2006
Dirk 4-13 (30%) against Minnesota in 2003
Dirk 6-19 (31%) against Minnesota in 2005
Dirk 5-15 (33%) against Brooklyn in 2014
Dirk 8-24 (33%) against Minnesota in 2006
Dirk 5-15 (33%) against Minnesota in 2001
Dirk 1-3 (33%) against Minnesota in 1999***
Dirk 5-14 (35%) against Minnesota in 2007
Dirk 6-16 (37%) against Minnesota in 2005
Dirk 5-13 (38%) against Minnesota in 2004
Dirk 7-18 (38%) against Minnesota in 2001

Again, like KG's matchups against Duncan - he too held Dirk under his season average for a dozen more games - this is all without mentioning all the other shyt he did on the defensive end as well.

Clearly you either have a hard time remembering KG during his Minny/Boston days or you're just ignorant to how well he played on the defensive end against elite opposition.

But where that defense at vs. the elite guys? Why should I value KGs defense so much in playoff series if he's getting matched up vs an elite 4 and getting roasted?

As you can see from the above evidence he wasn't getting roasted when matched up against "elite guys". And again, I have to reiterate that his defensive value wasn't just in guarding his opposite, it was shutting down the paint, providing arguably the greatest PNR coverage in the history of the game, guarding perimeter players and closing down driving lanes. He did it all on that end; marginalizing his defensive capacity to simply 'shutting down' his opposite is an injustice to all the historically great shyt he did on the end of the court.

 

[im not you]

did that KG stan state why KG > Shaq, Duncan yet?

 

[Goatpoacher]

And again, I have to reiterate that his defensive value wasn't just in guarding his opposite, it was shutting down the paint, providing arguably the greatest PNR coverage in the history of the game, guarding perimeter players and closing down driving lanes. He did it all on that end; marginalizing his defensive capacity to simply 'shutting down' his opposite is an injustice to all the historically great shyt he did on the end of the court.

Yep.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

As far as Duncan...I can't imagine a world where Tony Parker is an all star without him...Parker couldn't even make a jumpshot until about 5 years ago...i don't see how he becomes the player he is today without the goat power forward giving him open looks whenever he wants them...I could see Manu making some all star teams without Duncan though...

How many times do I have to warn you about spreading these lies?

Parker was still the #2 option during the season when they won that 2003 Championship, and Manu was about the fourth/fifth option.

Parker's first three seasons playing with Manu (FG%) - 46%, 44%, 48%
Manu's first three seasons playing with Parker (FG%)- 43%, 41%, 47%

And this is with Parker taking 2-3 more shots per game as well. But I thought Parker couldn't shoot though?

Let's take it a step further -

Parker was hitting 37% on total jumpers and Ginoboli was hitting 32% on jumpers in 2002/2003
Parker was hitting 34% on total jumpers and Ginoboli was hitting 32% on jumpers in 2003/2004
Parker was hitting 36% on total jumpers and Ginobili was hitting 38% on jumpers in 2004/2005.

Parker was hitting 36% on midrange jumpers (308 attempts) and Ginobili was hitting 24% on midrange jumpers (37 attempts) in 2002/2003
Parker was hitting 36% on midrange jumpers (302 attempts) and Ginobili was hitting 33% on midrange jumpers (86 attempts) in 2003/2004
Parker was hitting 40% on midrange jumpers (345 attempts) and Ginobili was hitting 28% on midrange jumpers (71 attempts) in 2004/2005

So basically you're talking shyt about Parker not being able to hit shots outside of 12 feet in the first half of his career and you're talking shyt about 'Prime Manu' having to play with a PG that couldn't shoot, when in fact he was the one that couldn't shoot.

 

[Codeine Bryant]

I'm asking what seasons where he had games/moments as you're suggesting where his defense went "ghost"?

His defense was more often than not a great factor when it came to playing teams with premier frontcourt players. Anybody that says any different obviously weren't watching too many T'Wolves games back then. He did this shyt from about his second season in. He always brought it on the defensive end, in every quarter, in every game.

And so did KG.

These are the games where KG held [had the most influence] Duncan to below his typical FG%:

Duncan 1-8 (12%) against Minnesota in 2005
Duncan 2-13 (14%) against Boston in 2012
Duncan 2-10 (20%) against Minnesota in 1999
Duncan 5-19 (26%) against Minnesota in 2006
Duncan 5-17 (29%) against Minnesota in 2003
Duncan 8-24 (33%) against Minnesota in 2004
Duncan 5-15 (33%) against Minnesota in 1999 (playoffs)
Duncan 5-15 (33%) against Minnesota in 2005
Duncan 4-12 (33%) against Boston in 2012
Duncan 8-23 (34%) against Minnesota in 2001 (playoffs)
Duncan 8-23 (34%) against Minnesota in 2004
Duncan 6-17 (35%) against Minnesota in 1999 (playoffs)
Duncan 7-20 (35%) against Minnesota in 2001
Duncan 7-19 (36%) against Minnesota in 2001
Duncan 7-18 (38%) against Minnesota in 1999

There's about a dozen more games where KG was limiting Duncan to below his season average % - this is all without mentioning all the other shyt he did on the defensive end as well.

This couldn't be further from the truth.

These are the games where KG held [had the most influence] Dirk to below his typical FG%:

Dirk 4-17 (23%) against Boston in 2009
Dirk 2-8 (25%) against Minnesota in 2006
Dirk 4-13 (30%) against Minnesota in 2003
Dirk 6-19 (31%) against Minnesota in 2005
Dirk 5-15 (33%) against Brooklyn in 2014
Dirk 8-24 (33%) against Minnesota in 2006
Dirk 5-15 (33%) against Minnesota in 2001
Dirk 1-3 (33%) against Minnesota in 1999***
Dirk 5-14 (35%) against Minnesota in 2007
Dirk 6-16 (37%) against Minnesota in 2005
Dirk 5-13 (38%) against Minnesota in 2004
Dirk 7-18 (38%) against Minnesota in 2001

Again, like KG's matchups against Duncan - he too held Dirk under his season average for a dozen more games - this is all without mentioning all the other shyt he did on the defensive end as well.

Clearly you either have a hard time remembering KG during his Minny/Boston days or you're just ignorant to how well he played on the defensive end against elite opposition.

As you can see from the above evidence he wasn't getting roasted when matched up against "elite guys". And again, I have to reiterate that his defensive value wasn't just in guarding his opposite, it was shutting down the paint, providing arguably the greatest PNR coverage in the history of the game, guarding perimeter players and closing down driving lanes. He did it all on that end; marginalizing his defensive capacity to simply 'shutting down' his opposite is an injustice to all the historically great shyt he did on the end of the court.

2001 1st round vs. Spurs: Duncan 22.5ppg on 46.6%
2002 1st round vs. Mavs: Dirk 33.3ppg on 52.6%
2003 1st round vs. Lakers: Shaq 28.7ppg on 51.6%
2004 WCF vs. Lakers: Shaq 20.7ppg on 56.9%

That was the height of his defensive prime. When he really was probably the best defensive player on the planet. His man still cooked. Usually very efficiently. If Kobe wasn't ballhogging in 2004, Shaq could have dropped 30ppg on 55% easily.

To be fair, I'm not sure KG was guarding Shaq. They probably kept him off to keep him out of foul trouble, but if he's such a great defender, you'd want him on Shaq to try and neutralize him, no? I mean, LeBron took KD in the 2012 Finals. Kawhi takes LeBron and Durant. No hiding there.

And you are right, there are more aspects than simply what your man does against you. I've never denied KG's defensive prowess. I'm just saying that the hype was a bit overblown in playoff series when his man was still able to get his (fairly easily) AND the opposing team didn't really struggle at all to score.

 

[Gizza]

Hakeem, 06 Wade, and 11 Dirk are the only guys to win a ring in the last 25 years without an All-Star teammate.

Hakeem and Dirk were GREAT players who disrupted the opposition's flow and floor spacing and made the game easier for their teammates. Wade went Michael Jordan in 2006. Shaq was garbage on that team. Shaq scored 4 points in Game 2 of that NBA Finals. Totally washed.


Garnett needed Pierce and Allen. There's levels to this shyt. And Dirk is in a level that KG never reached. Dirk was able to be the number 1 guy that teams could gameplan for, focus on, and try and double team and force into bad situations.

KG didn't have to deal with that. If anything, teams would rather KG have the ball down the stretch than Pierce or Allen.

For all of KG's intensity and defense, he couldn't really do shyt to help his team win games down the stretch in Minny. You can't give KG the ball repeatedly in close 4th quarter situations and expect positive outcomes consistently the way you can with Duncan and Dirk.

And in the game of basketball, that is everything. The way we praise Brady for being clutch, there's a special appreciation for guys like Jordan, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, an Dirk. Guys who you can certifiably go to in clutch moments and expect them to come through.


KG ain't that. He's a tier below.

Lurkin this thread until I work. So much knowledge, obviously you watched the games brehs. Off 24's I got you.

To add on to his point you must of forgot when cold pizza/1st & 10/1st take when didnt go full retard trollin. He killed KG for "takin 18 ft jumpers & until he went to Boston he didn't have to shoulder the load in the clutch"

I watched that loud mouth buffoon fuccn defer to troy hudson or take long mid range jumpers in the '04 WCF to my Lakers. Fuk a win share & we really talkin bout josh "ima whine I cant smoke durin the season" howard & dampier who fat shaq would clown literally

Fuk this thread

 

[Tunez]

How many times do I have to warn you about spreading these lies?

Parker trash

 

[Codeine Bryant]

Parker trash