Let's Talk About Gun Control

acri1

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Clearly you didn't read what I said......... the references are at the bottom of the page........ :ohhh:

You see all the NUMBERS AT THE END OF THE SENTENCES, THOSE ARE SOURCES AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE.... :snoop:

Let me help you out breh...

A. You see the numbers at the bottom of the page, like 1
B. Ok, take that number and find it at the top of article
C. Match It
D. That is the source

Now if you feel that those sources are biased then that's on you.....

:childplease:

But fine, I'll play that game.

First off, that 2.5 million lives saved figure is BS.

The Myth of 2.5 Million Defensive Gun Uses Per Year

Kleck and Gertz’s claim of 2.5 million defensive gun uses per year is derived from a telephone survey of 5,000 American adults conducted in 1992. Fifty-six respondents to this survey reported that they had used a gun in self-defense during the past year. Kleck and Gertz multiply the proportion of respondents in their survey who report a defensive gun use (X/5,000 = Y percent) by the number of adults in the U.S. (around 200 million) and the numberof defensive gun uses equals 2.5 million per year. They estimate that in 670,000 of these incidents the would-be victims used guns when they were away from their homes.

Many people are amazed that projections about national phenomena can be made based on a telephone survey of a few thousand adults. While many surveys of this type canprovide useful information about national phenomena, in this particular case the public’s skepticism is warranted. The primary problem is that, even if the Kleck and Gertz’s estimates were accurate, defensive gun use is a relatively rare occurrence in that only 1% of respondents reported a defensive gun use during the previous 12 months. As David Hemenway ofHarvard University has pointed out, inaccurate reporting of these events by a relatively small number of respondents could lead to population projections that are orders of magnitude different from the true incidence.14 For example, if one-half of one percent of the survey respondents incorrectly reported that they had used a gun to defend themselves against a criminal attack during the past year, the estimated number of defensive gun uses would be twice as high the true number.

There are many reasons that respondents’ reports of defensive gun use might be exaggerated. In some cases, respondents may have misjudged the level of danger they faced when they drew their gun. Survey researchers are also familiar with two types of responsebias, “telescoping” and social desirability bias, that could lead to an overstated incidence of reported events such as defensive gun use. Telescoping refers to the tendency of respondents to report that salient events such as a crime victimization or a defensive gun use occurred more recently than was the case. Evidence that the Kleck-Gertz survey respondents are telescoping their recollections of their crime victimizations comes from the estimated number of robbery victimizations it produces that is nearly five times as high as the estimate derived from the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS). The NCVS minimizes telescopingby using shorter recall periods and a panel design that re-surveys respondents multiple times over a three-year period.

Social desirability bias refers to the tendency of respondents to over-report their actions they believe others would find admirable such as an heroic act to defend oneself or others against a criminal. There is no way to definitively determine the degree to which social desirability bias may have influenced the Kleck-Gertz estimates of defensive gun use. However, it seems likely that the nearly half of the respondents reporting defensive gun uses who indicated that they believe their defensive gun use saved their life or the life of someone else probably thought of their actions as heroic. Such incidents are regularly reported in American Rifleman, a monthly magazine distributed to all members of the National Rifle Association, in a manner that unequivocally portrays the incidents as heroic acts.

Given these possible sources of error, it is not surprising that surveys sometimes produce quite puzzling results. For example, in his discussion of the pitfalls of using the Kleck-Gertz survey to make population projections about the incidence of defensive gun use, David Hemenway of Harvard University cites a 1994 phone survey of 1,500 adults living in the U.S. Six percent of the respondents to this survey reported having had personal contact with aliens from another planet. This six percent could be explained, in part, by the series of questions that led up to question about contact with aliens that set up the respondent to expect that the interviewer was hoping for some alien-contact answers. In addition, some small yet non-negligible percentage of survey respondents could be expected to have mental conditions that impair their perceptions and lead them to report defensive gun incidents that did not actually happen.

Not surprisingly, the combined effects of these problems can produce population estimates that are grossly out of line with other measures of violent crime. For example, the Kleck-Gertz projection for the number of assailants wounded by armed citizens in 1992 is more than twice as high as the estimate from another study of the total number of people treated for gunshot wounds in a nationally representative sample of hospitals in 1994. Finally, the Kleck-Gertz survey data suggest that, in serious crimes, the victim was four times more likely than the offender to have and use a gun, a highly implausible finding given the much higher rate of gun carrying among criminals compared with other citizens.

TL;DR, the 2.5 million number is demonstrably inaccurate because

1. The sample size is waaaaay too small

2. They way the survey was setup, a "Defensive Gun Use" is simply somebody who thinks they were protecting a person or thing. If you extrapolate, there aren't enough crimes committed for all of them to ACTUALLY have protected or saved anything, which means that a lot of the respondents were George Zimmerman ass motherfukkers.


I'll get to the rest later.
 

daze23

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some more info:

Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology

I. Introduction and Summary

Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz conducted a survey of civilian defensive gun use in 1992. In 1993, Kleck began publicizing the estimate that civilians use guns in self-defense against offenders up to 2.5 million times each year. [1] This figure has been widely used by the National Rifle Association and by gun advocates. It is also often cited in the media [2] and even in Congress. [3] The Kleck and Gertz (K-G) paper has now been published. [4] It is clear, however, that its conclusions cannot be accepted as valid. [Page 1431]

Two aspects of the K-G survey combine to create severe misestimation. The first is the likelihood of positive social desirability response, sometimes referred to as personal presentation bias. An individual who purchases a gun for self-defense and then uses it successfully to ward off a criminal is displaying the wisdom of his precautions and his capability in protecting himself, his loved ones, and his property. His action is to be commended and admired.

Some positive social desirability response bias, by itself, might not lead to serious overestimation. However, combined with a second aspect of the survey-- the attempt to estimate a very rare event--it does. The search for a "needle in a haystack" has major methodological dangers, especially where researchers try to extrapolate the findings to society as a whole.

Until the K-G study, no one had estimated that even as many as 1% of adult civilians had used a gun in self-defense in the past year. Nevertheless, assume that the actual incidence is 1%. On average, for every 100 individuals asked a "Yes/No" question about the event, ninety-nine respondents will have a chance to be misclassified as a false positive. In ninety-nine answers there is the possibility of positive social desirability response bias. However, on average only one respondent--the one who actually did use a gun in self defense--could possibly be misclassified as a false negative (e.g., if she forgot about the event). Even if the chance of forgetting is high, as long as there is any possibility of positive response bias, it is very likely that the survey finding will be an overestimate.

The fact that the survey is trying to estimate a low probability event also means that a small percentage bias, when extrapolated, can lead to extreme overestimates. Consider a survey finding which contains a 1% overestimate of positive responses. If the true incidence of the event is 60%, estimating it at 61% would not be a problem. But if the true incidence is 1%, measuring it as 2% would be a doubling of the true rate; and if the true incidence is 0.1%, measuring it at 1.1% would be an eleven-fold overestimate.

The K-G survey design contains a huge overestimation bias. The authors do little to reduce the bias or to validate their findings by external measures. All checks for external validity of the Kleck-Gertz finding confirm that their estimate is highly exaggerated.

(references in link {and those are actual references and not long-winded opinions [aka a red flag]})
 

newworldafro

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:childplease:

But fine, I'll play that game.

First off, that 2.5 million lives saved figure is BS.



TL;DR, the 2.5 million number is demonstrably inaccurate because

1. The sample size is waaaaay too small

2. They way the survey was setup, a "Defensive Gun Use" is simply somebody who thinks they were protecting a person or thing. If you extrapolate, there aren't enough crimes committed for all of them to ACTUALLY have protected or saved anything, which means that a lot of the respondents were George Zimmerman ass motherfukkers.


I'll get to the rest later.

Again....criticism is great..................but just on the face value of it.......YOU HONESTLY THINK LESS THAN 15,000 people's lives were saved by guns per year??? Seriously??
 

daze23

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Again....criticism is great..................but just on the face value of it.......YOU HONESTLY THINK LESS THAN 15,000 people's lives were saved by guns per year??? Seriously??

what's your point? that anything slightly better than a 1:1 saved:kill ratio is "OK"? :childplease:
 

newworldafro

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what's your point? that anything slightly better than a 1:1 saved:kill ratio is "OK"? :childplease:

Lives were saved that's the point, I'm sure whether its 2.5 million or 500,000 per year...its definitely many times over 15,000 people..that's the point...
@acri1 and @daze23 there are over 20 references on that page .... feel free to attempt to debunk all of them .....
 
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daze23

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Life's were saved that's the points, I'm sure whether its 2.5 million or 500,000 per year...its definitely many times over 15,000 people..that's the point...

you can't say "lives were saved". situations were changed, but you can't say otherwise those people would have been killed. that is a gross misrepresentation of the statistics. not to mention all the people in this thread who gladly said they would kill someone for trying to take their property
 

newworldafro

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@acri1 and @daze23 How do yall respond to this local news video from just last week the Oregon mall shooter was confronted by a guy with a handgun....

Please respond...cause it seems to make my point pretty clear and relevant...

"Clackamas Mall Shooter Was Confronted By Concealed Carrier (Oregon) "

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpiAaLyIQOA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpiAaLyIQOA[/ame]
 
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daze23

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@acri1 and @daze23 How do yall respond to this local news video from just last week the Oregon mall shooter was confronted by a guy with a handgun....

Please respond...cause it seems to make my point pretty clear and relevant...

"Clackamas Mall Shooter Was Confronted By Concealed Carrier (Oregon) "

Today's News Clackamas Mall Shooter Was Confronted By Concealed Carrier More This Week Oregon 2012 - YouTube

respond to what? from the info in the video it's not even clear the guy saw him (Nick), let alone if that was the reason he eventually shot himself
 
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newworldafro

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respond to what? from the info in the video it's not even clear the guy saw him (Nick), let alone if that was the reason he eventually shot himself

:leostare: .... really breh................... the former security guard had a concealed carry, which could have averted more deaths and possibly it did .... yall like tip toeing
xxskelwalk.gif
around the main point....

:snoop:
 

daze23

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those numbers are bs it's already been debunked

I was just trying to figure out what point he was trying to make with the "15,000" number. turns out he was was trying to say all those were incidences where lives were saved. and not some hillybilly that heard a bump in the night, and shot at a racc00n in the bushes
 
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