Mandla Mandela, grandson of Nelson Mandela: "Israel is the worst apartheid regime."

[Moich]

the palestinian authority is not a state with similar power or self determination. in gaza israel has used specific calorie counts to prevent more food then they want to enter during the blockade. and palestinian water access is entirely controlled by Israeli occupation as per Oslo II, they retained all the water resources.Water Crisis

Proof ? I will not let you slide on this one

Since Israel controls the water sources, all the more incentives for Pals to sit down and agree an ultimate end of claims agreement with Israelis. it can be done, it be should be done, bitter enemies all over world have made peace and moved on. However I'm not holding my breath. Why ? Because Muslim texts and history are an ample guide. Compromise is an alien word to them, a land once captured by Muslims cant be given away and there is no final ceasefire, you can only have hudna or temporary truce till your stronger than the other party This was Mohammed modus operandi. Any Palestinian or Arab leader who compromises or makes peace with Israel without pushing the Jews from the whole of Israel will be seen as a traitor and will be killed. Look what happened to Sadat ?

i am not ignorant of the religious and historic connection of jerusalem to the jewish people. the jews also conquered and expanded their territory during the canaanite wars, taking over much of what zionists claim as israeli territory today. i know there is a religious and historical connection between jews and jerusalem (and palestine in general). that does not justify the establishment of the state of israel. also those land purchases youre talking about happened during periods where the ottoman empire "ruled" over palestine (moreso muhammad ali and britain), its not like palestinian arabs were selling huge swaths of land to jewish buyers.

Your flailing here buddy, they are no Canaanites or Philistines today, the only two people who perhaps could have a more legitimate claim to the land than the Jews, as it is Jews have a stronger historical claim to the land the Arabs. Fact!
Yes individual Arabs were selling land to wealthy Jews, the ottomans were not coercing the Arabs to sell land, in fact they tried to discourage it, Ottomans beings Muslims certainly didn't any incentive to hate Jews or look favorably on them. Look up Abdul Hamid the last Sultan of the Ottomans and what he said to the Jews.

" that does not justify the establishment of the state of israel."

Why not ? We have established Jews in fact had a historical homeland in this place, that they bought the land peacefully and settled it, that they were being kicked about everywhere and persecuted culminating in the holocaust. What more reason do you need ?... So Arabs are entitled to 22 countries ( most of which they stole ) and Jews aren't to their only one Jewish homeland. Sheer nerve.

theres also a huge difference between nonzionist jews who were immigrating to jerusalem throughout the centuries prior to the twentieth and those who came with the intention of establishing a jewish state in terms of their willingness to adapt to the culture present at the time of their immigration (a lot of jews in the early-mid nineteenth century were immigrating to jerusalem to prepare for what they thought was the imminent end of the world) the "ongoing habitation" youre talking about wasnt an issue until zionists came en masse with the intenion of developing their own state and culture in palestine. jews had lived in palestine during caliphates and the ottoman empire for centuries before and faced drastically less persecution than in europe.

Sheer twaddle, if you accept they have a historical connection to this land then it follows that they should have sovereignty over it, period. Coptic Christians are thoroughly adapted to Arab Egyptian culture and that doesn't protect from getting that work frequently, nor does it Iraqi Christians, Yazidis. No state means no protection, as the Jews of the middle east can attest. By the way nobody talks about the hundreds of thousands of Jews expelled from Muslim lands but everyone harps on about Pal refugees.

does the state of Israel constitute a "day in the sun" for the jewish people? i dont think it does. jewish people all over the world face anti-semitic hostility as a byproduct of the state of israels actions. i actually do want what i view as best for jewish and palestinian people, which is a state where they both have citizenship in a territory they each have historic claims to. the current dynamic which you view as positive for jews and Israelis, in reality, breeds hostility on all sides

The anti antisemitism is mainly from salty medieval women haters aka Muslims who are mad because Israel is an economically thriving, democratic, military powerhouse, while they can't create a single healthy polity anywhere and a small segment of inbred white supremacists Other than those two losers, Israel is respected and accepted by the nations of the world, who want to benefit from its scientific and technical prowess. They are not in danger of pogroms, persecutions and that is all thanks to having a state they can call their own, that fights for them, that has their back, that acts as place of refuge.

 

[88m3]

Pseudo-Democratic at best with an illusion of democracy (just like the U.S.).

If Israel were a theocracy or monarchy would you support it though?

 

[ill]

its not a democracy. israel controls the lives of millions of palestinians in the occupied territories in every possible way. they have NO democratic input into israeli policy.
there are 600,000 jewish settlers in the occupied territories. so the state of israel has basically used these settlers to bring the territories into their state framework.
israeli settlers in the territories can vote in knesset but the palestinians there can not (unless they have israeli citizenship). their borders are determined by a state they have no way to influence democratically. how is israel a democracy?

The West Bank and Gaza are not a part of Israel. “Occupied territory” is what it is and hamas governs Gaza and the PA governs the West Bank. fukk are you talking about democratic rights in Israel for? Gaza and WB are largely autonomous states. They vote within their own states. Why would these people have democratic rights in Israel? Israel is a country whose entire existence they denounce and want no part of.....but you think they should have democratic rights?

 

[19-]

Proof ? I will not let you slide on this one

Since Israel controls the water sources, all the more incentives for Pals to sit down and agree an ultimate end of claims agreement with Israelis. it can be done, it be should be done, bitter enemies all over world have made peace and moved on. However I'm not holding my breath. Why ? Because Muslim texts and history are an ample guide. Compromise is an alien word to them, a land once captured by Muslims cant be given away and there is no final ceasefire, you can only have hudna or temporary truce till your stronger than the other party This was Mohammed modus operandi. Any Palestinian or Arab leader who compromises or makes peace with Israel without pushing the Jews from the whole of Israel will be seen as a traitor and will be killed. Look what happened to Sadat ?




Your flailing here buddy, they are no Canaanites or Philistines today, the only two people who perhaps could have a more legitimate claim to the land than the Jews, as it is Jews have a stronger historical claim to the land the Arabs. Fact!
Yes individual Arabs were selling land to wealthy Jews, the ottomans were not coercing the Arabs to sell land, in fact they tried to discourage it, Ottomans beings Muslims certainly didn't any incentive to hate Jews or look favorably on them. Look up Abdul Hamid the last Sultan of the Ottomans and what he said to the Jews.

" that does not justify the establishment of the state of israel."

Why not ? We have established Jews in fact had a historical homeland in this place, that they bought the land peacefully and settled it, that they were being kicked about everywhere and persecuted culminating in the holocaust. What more reason do you need ?... So Arabs are entitled to 22 countries ( most of which they stole ) and Jews aren't to their only one Jewish homeland. Sheer nerve.



Sheer twaddle, if you accept they have a historical connection to this land then it follows that they should have sovereignty over it, period. Coptic Christians are thoroughly adapted to Arab Egyptian culture and that doesn't protect from getting that work frequently, nor does it Iraqi Christians, Yazidis. No state means no protection, as the Jews of the middle east can attest. By the way nobody talks about the hundreds of thousands of Jews expelled from Muslim lands but everyone harps on about Pal refugees.



The anti antisemitism is mainly from salty medieval women haters aka Muslims who are mad because Israel is an economically thriving, democratic, military powerhouse, while they can't create a single healthy polity anywhere and a small segment of inbred white supremacists Other than those two losers, Israel is respected and accepted by the nations of the world, who want to benefit from its scientific and technical prowess. They are not in danger of pogroms, persecutions and that is all thanks to having a state they can call their own, that fights for them, that has their back, that acts as place of refuge.

Israel used 'calorie count' to limit Gaza food during blockade, critics claim

ill probably edit this post later to respond to your other points
first edit: abdul hamid was actually very divergent in ethnic policy from the sultans before him. previous sultants had attempted the tanzimat and actually did away with dhimmi status and special rights for muslims. so he is one example of sultanate policy in this period, but not a representative one.

the establishment of the state of israel resulted in a massive humanitarian crisis involving the mass exodus of palestinians from their homes (israeli historians have also uncovered the ethnic cleansing of palestinian villages that occured in this period). THIS is what i mean when i say the creation of the israeli state was not justified. the humanitarian crisis we are in DID NOT need to happen. early zionists didnt think the israeli nation had to exist in palestine, they theorized it being founded in south america too. but that never would have happened because european nations didnt have mandates in south america.

also the arabs living in palestine today have ancestry from indigenous groups from the period of arab conquests because of how common arabs reproduced with the groups they conquered. their ancestry is not only that of conquerors

where else in the world other than israel are there large concentrations of jews and pogroms? in brooklyn? the bay area? paris?
netanyahu and the right wing government has made israel EXTREMELY unpopular across the world. youre blind if you dont recognize this. support for the palestinian people is also growing quickly in the united states. long term if i were an israeli citizen i would be extremely disturbed and frightened by this.

this is going to be the last time i respond to you because at this point i dont think either of us are gaining anything from this discussion. i will say this though. youre description of muslims is extremely homogenizing, especially in your description of them as wholly uncompromising and ruthless. there are muslims who fit this description. there have also been historic muslim leaders who allowed for religious freedom and tolerance in their societies. neither thing is inherent to the religion, just as it isnt in christianity or judaism. i hate the influence of all religions on the earth but everything you said about muslims can be easily applied to the global history of christianity. i think you have been impacted by either israeli or american propoganda on arabs and muslims as concerns the state of israel, which is why you dont apply this criticism to other religious groups. i hope one day you see the mistakes in this argument. i hope more strongly for a political situation which allows for the success and safety of global palestinian and jewish communities.

 

[19-]

The West Bank and Gaza are not a part of Israel. “Occupied territory” is what it is and hamas governs Gaza and the PA governs the West Bank. fukk are you talking about democratic rights in Israel for? Gaza and WB are largely autonomous states. They vote within their own states. Why would these people have democratic rights in Israel? Israel is a country whose entire existence they denounce and want no part of.....but you think they should have democratic rights?

ive explained after this post the massive influence israel has on the lives of people in the west bank and gaza.

 

[ill]

ive explained after this post the massive influence israel has on the lives of people in the west bank and gaza.

And I understand that aspect but you can’t complain about Israel being undemocratic when it’s in regards to states that aren’t actually a part of Israel territory.

 

[19-]

And I understand that aspect but you can’t complain about Israel being undemocratic when it’s in regards to states that aren’t actually a part of Israel territory.

but they practically are because of israeli settlements (specifically the west bank). so its been brought into the israeli state framework. if the israeli settlers in the west bank can vote in knesset (which they do) and travel freely into israel (which they do) those rights should extend to palestinians in the west bank

 

[Moich]

the establishment of the state of israel resulted in a massive humanitarian crisis involving the mass exodus of palestinians from their homes (israeli historians have also uncovered the ethnic cleansing of palestinian villages that occured in this period). THIS is what i mean when i say the creation of the israeli state was not justified. the humanitarian crisis we are in DID NOT need to happen. early zionists didnt think the israeli nation had to exist in palestine, they theorized it being founded in south america too. but that never would have happened because european nations didnt have mandates in south america.

What of the Jews who were expelled from their homes all across the Middle East ? Are their sufferings any less than the Palestinians ?
Zionists debated only one other option, Uganda, and that was rejected overwhelmingly because it was not their ancestral land. Germans who lived in Eastern Europe for hundreds of years were expelled at the end of the second world war, was it justified ? What of the Sikhs in Pakistan who were ethnically cleansed? Probably not, the world we live in is a tough place. However such population exchanges had to happen if such religious and ethnic conflicts were to be settled.

You are still denying the Jewish people's connection to Israel, this is exactly why the conflict won't be settled in the ME.

also the arabs living in palestine today have ancestry from indigenous groups from the period of arab conquests because of how common arabs reproduced with the groups they conquered. their ancestry is not only that of conquerors

Doesn't matter, they see themselves as Arabs. They can choose from the 22 Arab states surrounding Israel. Your not going to deprive the single Jewish state in the world, Jordan is 70%, Palestinians can achieve their national aspirations there.

where else in the world other than israel are there large concentrations of jews and pogroms? in brooklyn? the bay area? paris?
netanyahu and the right wing government has made israel EXTREMELY unpopular across the world. youre blind if you dont recognize this. support for the palestinian people is also growing quickly in the united states. long term if i were an israeli citizen i would be extremely disturbed and frightened by this.

Israel is unpopular with Arabs and Muslims. But Muslims are the most hated people in the world right now with their terrorism and problems everywhere, so who gives a shyt about their opinion. If a Muslim hates you, right now everyone else will automatically be your friend.

this is going to be the last time i respond to you because at this point i dont think either of us are gaining anything from this discussion. i will say this though. youre description of muslims is extremely homogenizing, especially in your description of them as wholly uncompromising and ruthless..there are muslims who fit this description.

I only speak facts

there have also been historic muslim leaders who allowed for religious freedom and tolerance in their societies..

Under Dhimmi rules.

i hate the influence of all religions on the earth

i think you have been impacted by either israeli or american propoganda on arabs and muslims as concerns the state of israel,

You are correct, Mossad sent agents to fill my head with propaganda x rays.

i hope more strongly for a political situation which allows for the success and safety of global palestinian and jewish communities.

Stop it, your are more likely praying for the destruction of Jews and Israel in your mosque, not hoping for success and safety.

Edit: ? أنت من وين