Nash won 2 MVPs and Kobe avg exploded right after hand checking removed

[Controversy]

Kobe averaged 35 with an avg nba pace of less than 90

It’s not a reach to saw Kob would avg 38-39 w/ today’s pace

 

[FunkDoc1112]

Kobe averaged 35 with an avg nba pace of less than 90

It’s not a reach to saw Kob would avg 38-39 w/ today’s pace

Teams don't play guys as many minutes as they did back then (Lebron led the league at less than 37 MPG and that wouldn't have even cracked the top 30 in '06) and part of the reason for the faster pace is because there's more talent than there was in '06.

Slower pace usually indicates more scoring opportunities for superstar caliber players because the offense typically revolves around them iso'ing more. MJ, LeBron, Kobe, AI, Carmelo, etc. all had their biggest scoring seasons while playing on some of the slowest teams in the league.

 

[Bigblackted4]

I'm a Blazer fan, of course I remember prime Terry Porter. He was a good player.

"real good" three point shooter? He was okay hitting wide-open threes when he could pick his spots in the regular season and easy playoff rounds. But he never became as big a threat from out there as Lowry has become. He was a guy you could count on for 1-2 threes in a game, tops. And he always struggled to hit any in the biggest series.

7-25 from three for the entire 1990 Finals
7-20 for the entire 1991 WCF
3-13 for the entire 1992 Finals

And the Blazers' offense always collapsed in the halfcourt in the clutch. Tell me, what were their go-to plays? Porter was a smart player, a good point guard, but what could Portland count on when the driving lanes got closed off? What was their low-post threat? What was their outside threat? What were their best offensive sets?

And Derozen gets shut down in the playoffs because he relies too much on the midrange game, which gets really difficult when defenses dial down in the playoffs and start collapsing and closing everything off. Which is the same thing that would happen to Drexler if he had to face zones. Clyde was 3-20 from three in the 1992 Finals, 4-18 from three in the 1991 WCF, and 2-12 from three in the 1990 Finals. How would he break the zone today when every defense he faced would get to sag off of him and he had zero guys to spread the floor out to three-point range?




Raptors are MUCH better defensively than the Blazers were. Lowry, Carroll, Tucker, and Patterson are all better on-ball defenders than what the Blazers had. Ibaka, Biyombo, and even Valanciunas are all better rim protectors than anyone on Portland's squad at that time except arguably Cliff. And the Raptors run much brighter defensive schemes.

Show ONE clip of normal plays from a big game in a big Raptors series, and we'll see if it matches what was happening in those Portland Finals.

On top of that, the Raptors have exactly ONE year where they won a game past the first round. Ya'all talk about how weak the east is, now the fact that the Raptors won a 1st-round series in the East is supposed to prove they're good?

I said that no one would be getting deep in the playoffs with a defense like that, and your comeback is...the Raptors won 1st-round games?






And even before that (see my 1992 video above), it didn't mean much.

Look how many open shots happened in the first minute

 

[Bigblackted4]

Teams don't play guys as many minutes as they did back then (Lebron led the league at less than 37 MPG and that wouldn't have even cracked the top 30 in '06) and part of the reason for the faster pace is because there's more talent than there was in '06.

Slower pace usually indicates more scoring opportunities for superstar caliber players because the offense typically revolves around them iso'ing more. MJ, LeBron, Kobe, AI, Carmelo, etc. all had their biggest scoring seasons while playing on some of the slowest teams in the league.

Precisely

Also that’s where I’d give today the biggest nod, the benches now are so much better than back then that’s why the Lakers and Celtics were so ahead of the competition. Top players on those teams didn’t have to kill themselves. That goes for the 00s and 80s

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Look how many open shots happened in the first minute

You think that THAT clip shows worse defense than the 1992 clip I showed earlier?

You clearly don't got no basketball mind if you think that the defense in that clip was worse.

It was a bad example, because it's only showing Kyrie highlights instead of a series of plays, so you're only seeing one of the most versatile players in the league get good results. Also, the clips are all about 5 seconds each so you don't see the play develop. But even then...you're seeing defenders staying up on their man, playing the strong side, moving their feet and staying in front of their man, collapsing effectively on inside threats, challenging every shot, and JUMPING to challenge every shot.

There were only two unchallenged shots in that first minute other than the fast break (which itself came off of strong defense causing a turnover). And those two open shots clearly came off of screens and drives leading to a collapsing defense leading to multiple passes to get the open guy.

You're seriously gonna compare that to the 1992 clip? Where even MJ, not to mention Drexler and Kersey, were getting open shots just off of regular defense with no special action? Where defenders were getting blown by on the strong side without moving their feet? Where shooters were just hanging out at more than arms' length, and would pull up without being challenged? Where switches were being missed? Where multiple players on both teams were getting to the rim at will without even needing a screen, and meeting big men who didn't even jump to challenge the shot? Where guys like Pippen were posting up 6 feet from the rim without an effective double team?

Not to mention the touch fouls and the flopping.

 

[TrebleMan]

I personally would have loved to see 2003-2007 Kobe with a full green light today.

People talking about Kyrie finishing around the rim, but Kobe and Jordan were both a level above given their frame but had rare fluidity in air.

 

[The_Third_Man]

NBA rules history

1978-79
- Clarification added to prohibit hand-checking through “rigid enforcement” of rule allowing a defensive player to retain contact with his opponent so long as he does not impede his opponent’s progress.

1994-95
- Hand-checking eliminated from the end line in the backcourt to the opposite foul line.

 

[Bigblackted4]

You think that THAT clip shows worse defense than the 1992 clip I showed earlier?

You clearly don't got no basketball mind if you think that the defense in that clip was worse.

It was a bad example, because it's only showing Kyrie highlights instead of a series of plays, so you're only seeing one of the most versatile players in the league get good results. Also, the clips are all about 5 seconds each so you don't see the play develop. But even then...you're seeing defenders staying up on their man, playing the strong side, moving their feet and staying in front of their man, collapsing effectively on inside threats, challenging every shot, and JUMPING to challenge every shot.

There were only two unchallenged shots in that first minute other than the fast break (which itself came off of strong defense causing a turnover). And those two open shots clearly came off of screens and drives leading to a collapsing defense leading to multiple passes to get the open guy.

You're seriously gonna compare that to the 1992 clip? Where even MJ, not to mention Drexler and Kersey, were getting open shots just off of regular defense with no special action? Where defenders were getting blown by on the strong side without moving their feet? Where shooters were just hanging out at more than arms' length, and would pull up without being challenged? Where switches were being missed? Where multiple players on both teams were getting to the rim at will without even needing a screen, and meeting big men who didn't even jump to challenge the shot? Where guys like Pippen were posting up 6 feet from the rim without an effective double team?

Not to mention the touch fouls and the flopping.

You a damn two lie and plenty of players were getting drove by. That raptors defensive was chop suey in the playoffs again y’all dudes love taking up for these bum ass Raptors. Nobody makes a deep run in the playoffs except Bron, KD Warriors and Celtics Rockets.They all play good D but that Celtics offense was awful compared to Blazers and the Rockets D this year was good but 2016 they made the conference finals and that defense was garbage



Not as bad as your clip which is part of a game but still awful

 

[The_Third_Man]

Why do you guys keep saying this?
Real hand checking was outlawed back in 1994.

true. people don't know what they talking about

hand check call from 93-94 season

 

[Professor Emeritus]

You a damn two lie and plenty of players were getting drove by. That raptors defensive was chop suey in the playoffs again y’all dudes love taking up for these bum ass Raptors. Nobody makes a deep run in the playoffs except Bron, KD Warriors and Celtics Rockets.They all play good D but that Celtics offense was awful compared to Blazers and the Rockets D this year was good but 2016 they made the conference finals and that defense was garbage

I don't even need to make any points on the defense comparison anymore. Anyone who knows anything can just watch the clips and see your argument is shot.

And you just said that the Celtics offense was "awful" compared to the Blazers.

Blazers only shot 10-52 from three (19%) for SIX GAMES COMBINED
Celtics in the ECF shot 68-217 from three (31% on way more volume)

Blazers had zero low-post threat. Literally none.
Celtics had Horford in the low post who is better than anyone on the Blazers

Blazers had zero rotation players shoot even an eFG% over 50%. Even their best offensive bigs shot 44% and 43%.
Celtics had four rotation players shoot an eFG% over 50% - Brown, Tatum, Horford, Baynes

Blazers had no real offensive scheme (which is why they only had 125 assists to 102 turnovers)
Celtics had one of the best offensive schemes in the league (which led to 149 assists as opposed to only 64 turnovers)

Blazers were straight up called a dumb team by the Bulls
Celtics are one of the smartest teams in the league


Blazers had....well, Drexler can drive the ball better than anyone on the Celtics. And that's it. That's literally their only advantage - in every other facet of the game, the Celtics were better.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Kobe averaged 35 with an avg nba pace of less than 90

It’s not a reach to saw Kob would avg 38-39 w/ today’s pace

Lakers had a 91 pace that year and Kobe averaged 41 minutes/game. This year a similar team might play at a 96 pace, but no one is going to average more than 37 minutes/game.

Playing a 5% faster pace now, but Kobe's gonna play 10% fewer minutes, so he ends up with fewer points, not more.

Not to mention that at a faster pace you're going to have a more random scoring distribution, so less Kobe isolation and even fewer scoring opportunities.

 

[klientel]

I don't even need to make any points on the defense comparison anymore. Anyone who knows anything can just watch the clips and see your argument is shot.

And you just said that the Celtics offense was "awful" compared to the Blazers.

Blazers only shot 10-52 from three (19%) for SIX GAMES COMBINED
Celtics in the ECF shot 68-217 from three (31% on way more volume)

Blazers had zero low-post threat. Literally none.
Celtics had Horford in the low post who is better than anyone on the Blazers

Blazers had zero rotation players shoot even an eFG% over 50%. Even their best offensive bigs shot 44% and 43%.
Celtics had four rotation players shoot an eFG% over 50% - Brown, Tatum, Horford, Baynes

Blazers had no real offensive scheme (which is why they only had 125 assists to 102 turnovers)
Celtics had one of the best offensive schemes in the league (which led to 149 assists as opposed to only 64 turnovers)

Blazers were straight up called a dumb team by the Bulls
Celtics are one of the smartest teams in the league


Blazers had....well, Drexler can drive the ball better than anyone on the Celtics. And that's it. That's literally their only advantage - in every other facet of the game, the Celtics were better.

Goddamn this boy done his homework....

I wouldn’t even attempt to argue against this. Seems like a losing battle.

 

[Controversy]

Teams don't play guys as many minutes as they did back then (Lebron led the league at less than 37 MPG and that wouldn't have even cracked the top 30 in '06) and part of the reason for the faster pace is because there's more talent than there was in '06.

Slower pace usually indicates more scoring opportunities for superstar caliber players because the offense typically revolves around them iso'ing more. MJ, LeBron, Kobe, AI, Carmelo, etc. all had their biggest scoring seasons while playing on some of the slowest teams in the league.

Do you really believe the players are better?

The 2000s will produce hella HOFers

MJ never played in a league where the pace was less than 90

It’s not a stretch to say the best def was played in the 2000s. The mentality & approach to def is diff now. I do believe Kob would avg 39 in this era. More transition opportunities, more layups, more open threes.

 

[Houston911]

Lakers had a 91 pace that year and Kobe averaged 41 minutes/game. This year a similar team might play at a 96 pace, but no one is going to average more than 37 minutes/game.

Playing a 5% faster pace now, but Kobe's gonna play 10% fewer minutes, so he ends up with fewer points, not more.

Not to mention that at a faster pace you're going to have a more random scoring distribution, so less Kobe isolation and even fewer scoring opportunities.

This is a good post, but i don’t know about the isolation opportunities without the makeup of the team and the scheme they’re running

If you’re putting him on a more modern style team with bigs who can shoot and they run pick and rolls all game to force switches, then

 

[Bigblackted4]

I don't even need to make any points on the defense comparison anymore. Anyone who knows anything can just watch the clips and see your argument is shot.

And you just said that the Celtics offense was "awful" compared to the Blazers.

Blazers only shot 10-52 from three (19%) for SIX GAMES COMBINED
Celtics in the ECF shot 68-217 from three (31% on way more volume)

Blazers had zero low-post threat. Literally none.
Celtics had Horford in the low post who is better than anyone on the Blazers

Blazers had zero rotation players shoot even an eFG% over 50%. Even their best offensive bigs shot 44% and 43%.
Celtics had four rotation players shoot an eFG% over 50% - Brown, Tatum, Horford, Baynes

Blazers had no real offensive scheme (which is why they only had 125 assists to 102 turnovers)
Celtics had one of the best offensive schemes in the league (which led to 149 assists as opposed to only 64 turnovers)

Blazers were straight up called a dumb team by the Bulls
Celtics are one of the smartest teams in the league


Blazers had....well, Drexler can drive the ball better than anyone on the Celtics. And that's it. That's literally their only advantage - in every other facet of the game, the Celtics were better.

You can not compare three point volume it’s a different era fool. And why’d you use EFG which nobody uses and not TS. Your another Gil Scott only use numbers when it benefits you.

They finished 7th in offensive rating 111.4 ppg and had a point differential of 7 while the Celtics with Kyrie for 60 games had an offensive rating of 18th at 107 ppg that’s like the distance between the best offense and the 15th. Buck Williams was a 4 and shot 65% TS. Cliff Robinson wasn’t a post big he was a space big. Duckworth was your average plotter who was needed at the time to guard all the other good centers. They didn’t have a great half court offense, but they scored well.