"NBA plays no defense"

[Gravity]

Defending is harder today in your own words, yet we got a team like the Pacers holding teams to .417% So, how good would they be if they were allowed to play under the rules the 90s teams were?


The Bulls are second @ .429%, the best team in the NBA 20 years ago were the Knicks at .431. So, two teams today are holding teams to percentages lower than what the Knicks were, in a league where it's harder to play defense?

That's just how bad offensive play has gotten. Do you honestly think that this Pacers team is amongst the best defensive teams ever? As good as the Heat have been defensively over the last 3-4 years, we see that a team with a decently skilled big man is going to give them hell. You have to put the percentages into perspective.

 

[Malta]

This is why stats aren't the end all be all. Neither this years Pacers or the Grizz are among the "best defensive teams ever". I don't care what the stats say.

Stats > Your Opinion

You can't have it both ways, sorry, on one hand you cannot say it's harder to play defense today then turn around and say the Pacers aren't one of the best defensive squads ever even though they are holding teams under 42%. People ALWAYS throw stats out when they don't back up their claims

Yea the .003% difference in percentage is worth mentioning and not the fact that teams took considerably more 2pa back then. Free throw percentage doesn't really support your point either because teams took more fts back then and you had more big men taking fts. If you want proof of a lack of skill in today's game just look at the lack of midrange and post players. Dwight Howard is the best center in the league and has been for the last 5-6 years. Nuff said.

Freethrow is a constant, if skill were diminishing as much as you say then the average should be lower, because it is one of the most basic skills we can compare across eras since the distance hasn't changed. The mid-range game didn't die, it migrated to frontcourt players because of spacing, they are often the only players that can get off clean looks. You don't seem to get that the zone is why players take so many 3s, just because a team isn't running a 2-3 out there doesn't mean the principles aren't at work. So numbers aren't proof, but pointing to 1 single player and saying "look look" is?

Save the hyperbole man. Who would you rather have Paul George defending your wing or Scittie Pippen? Who would you rather have defending your paint Birdman or Dream? You're basically making my point here. Those 90s cats got so good at playing defense(coupled with the fact that offensensive play declined) that they had to change the rules help the offenses out.

And this is where your point falls completely apart, for every Scottie, I can name several wing defenders that are better and considerably taller/longer than John Starks, a guy that played on the best defensive team 20 years ago. So, basically your whole point centers around taking the absolute best player and then comparing him to someone else who isn't in the same ballpark, or a starter for that matter. Instead of Birdman, how about swapping the teams, take the Pacers core minus Hibbert and give them Hakeem + 90s rules, how much better would they be defensively? Or give Hakeem the Heat core, how much better would they be defensively You basically shot yourself in the foot with that.

You have a narrow incomplete understanding of what basketball skills are. Skills represent a lot more than shooting percentages. Players of today can be better 3point shooters and ft shooters while still being less skilled than players of 20 years ago. The entry pass into the post is a skill bruh. When I talk about skills I'm talking about a lot of the basic fundamentals of basketball. When you look at today's game an the how heavily perimeter oriented it had become you have to look at the lack of skill as a big reason why. You have big men who don't have basic fundamental post skills and you have guards who don't even know how to enter the ball into the post. The idea that teams shoot so many 3s today because they "have to" is just ridiculous. Teams are taking a ton of 3s because they don't have the skill or discipline to get consistent decent looks at 2s. Al Jefferson is proof that a decently skilled big man can kill shyt in this league yet big men of his caliber are few and far between. Again, the best center for the last 5-6 years is a minimally skilled cat who gets by on size and athleticism. Shaq looks like Dream compared to Dwight.

You're talking pure opinion and nothing else, you have nothing to backup anything you're saying other than how you feel. Please show me your data on the ability to throw entry passes and how it's diminished in the last 20 years Of course you can't, but you'll point to one example and paint with a broad brush that all can't. The game has become perimeter oriented because of the zone rules, why is this such a hard concept to understand? Al Jefferson's team is 3 games under .500 and what a coincidence, they are one of the worst 3 point shooting teams in the league. Your argument that players are less skilled centers around Dwight, lets turn a blind eye to guys like Steph Curry that get by on nothing but skill and the ability to shoot from anywhere on the floor, lets just focus on Dwight I've backed up my points with stats, so far all you've done is used your opinion and try to pass it as fact

 

[Malta]

That's just how bad offensive play has gotten. Do you honestly think that this Pacers team is amongst the best defensive teams ever? As good as the Heat have been defensively over the last 3-4 years, we see that a team with a decently skilled big man is going to give them hell. You have to put the percentages into perspective.

The Heat aren't very good defensively this year, poor point, and every team has a weakness.


Yes, the Pacers are among the best defensive teams ever, for the last time, you cannot claim that defense is harder to play today then just ignore the fact that the Pacers are holding teams to all-time low in FG%. You want to paint it out as players being bad offensively, yet nothing you say backs up that idea.

 

[luvaznpoon]

Stats > Your Opinion

You can't have it both ways, sorry, on one hand you cannot say it's harder to play defense today then turn around and say the Pacers aren't one of the best defensive squads ever even though they are holding teams under 42%. People ALWAYS throw stats out when they don't back up their claims






Freethrow is a constant, if skill were diminishing as much as you say then the average should be lower, because it is one of the most basic skills we can compare across eras since the distance hasn't changed. The mid-range game didn't die, it migrated to frontcourt players because of spacing, they are often the only players that can get off clean looks. You don't seem to get that the zone is why players take so many 3s, just because a team isn't running a 2-3 out there doesn't mean the principles aren't at work. So numbers aren't proof, but pointing to 1 single player and saying "look look" is?





And this is where your point falls completely apart, for every Scottie, I can name several wing defenders that are better and considerably taller/longer than John Starks, a guy that played on the best defensive team 20 years ago. So, basically your whole point centers around taking the absolute best player and then comparing him to someone else who isn't in the same ballpark, or a starter for that matter. Instead of Birdman, how about swapping the teams, take the Pacers core minus Hibbert and give them Hakeem + 90s rules, how much better would they be defensively? Or give Hakeem the Heat core, how much better would they be defensively You basically shot yourself in the foot with that.




You're talking pure opinion and nothing else, you have nothing to backup anything you're saying other than how you feel. Please show me your data on the ability to throw entry passes and how it's diminished in the last 20 years Of course you can't, but you'll point to one example and paint with a broad brush that all can't. The game has become perimeter oriented because of the zone rules, why is this such a hard concept to understand? Al Jefferson's team is 3 games under .500 and what a coincidence, they are one of the worst 3 point shooting teams in the league. Your argument that players are less skilled centers around Dwight, lets turn a blind eye to guys like Steph Curry that get by on nothing but skill and the ability to shoot from anywhere on the floor, lets just focus on Dwight I've backed up my points with stats, so far all you've done is used your opinion and try to pass it as fact

Numbers Never Lie.

 

[Gravity]

Stats > Your Opinion

You can't have it both ways, sorry, on one hand you cannot say it's harder to play defense today then turn around and say the Pacers aren't one of the best defensive squads ever even though they are holding teams under 42%. People ALWAYS throw stats out when they don't back up their claims

Grown man discussions>bytchass Internet debating tactics

That "both ways" bullshyt you keep trying to pin on me doesn't stick. I'm not throwing out the stats. We can talk about the stats but let's put them in perspective. You're on that simple shyt. Comparing stats now vs 20 years ago has to be done in context. The east is garbage now compared to 20 years ago. This Pacers team isn't facing anywhere near the same level of competition. You're talking like someone who didn't see the league in the early 90s and all you've got are the stats to rely on. It's a Different game nowadays. I don't dismiss your stats I dismiss your reasoning for the stats. Teams aren't scoring less because defenses have gotten better they're scoring less because offense has declined. All you have to do is open your eyes to see that this isn't "great" defense.

Freethrow is a constant, if skill were diminishing as much as you say then the average should be lower, because it is one of the most basic skills we can compare across eras since the distance hasn't changed.

This is your simple ass reasoning. I don't agree. Ft shooting is a skill but it's certainly not the only measure of whether overall skill has increased or diminished in today's league.

You have to put stats in context. Ft% is higher but teams are taking less fts and perimeter players who are historically better ft shooters than big men are taking a bigger share of the fts.

The mid-range game didn't die, it migrated to frontcourt players because of spacing, they are often the only players that can get off clean looks. You don't seem to get that the zone is why players take so many 3s, just because a team isn't running a 2-3 out there doesn't mean the principles aren't at work. So numbers aren't proof, but pointing to 1 single player and saying "look look" is?

There's a video breaking down how the Pistons played Mike in the 80s-90s that proves that "zone principles" have always been used in the league. The token 1-2 "illegal defense" calls that you saw before the zone was officially allowed never stopped teams from zoning up. The zone is not the reason that teams are taking all of these 3s. The zone was officially allowed prior to the 01-02 season. The last 3 seasons before the zone was officially allowed teams averaged 91.6/44% for 98-99, and 97.5/45% for 99-00, and 95/44% for 00-01. The averages for the 1st 3 seasons after the zone was officially allowed were 95.5/44.5% for 01-02, 95/44% for 02-03, and 93.4/44% for 03-04. Allowing tw zone didn't really change anything as far as the scoring and shooting percentages which is why the league made more rule changes to benefit offenses after allowing the zone. The no hand checking rule that was put in place before the 04-05 season had a much bigger impact on scoring than the zone did. Scoring and shooting percentages both clearly went up after the league stopped all of the hand checking. Teams are shooting more 3s because they don't have players skilled enough to score consistenty inside or from midrange. People like me have been saying that the midrange game has been dead for years and years. I don't know where your been.

Numbers/stats without context and perspective aren't proof of anything. My point wasn't just about Dwight it was about the center position as a whole and how centers today are nowhere near as skilled at the position as they used to be. I highlighted Dwight because he's been recognized as the best center in the game for at least the last 5-6 years and minimally skilled offensively. Put him the league 20 years ago and he's not be a top 5 center.

And this is where your point falls completely apart, for every Scottie, I can name several wing defenders that are better and considerably taller/longer than John Starks, a guy that played on the best defensive team 20 years ago. So, basically your whole point centers around taking the absolute best player and then comparing him to someone else who isn't in the same ballpark, or a starter for that matter. Instead of Birdman, how about swapping the teams, take the Pacers core minus Hibbert and give them Hakeem + 90s rules, how much better would they be defensively? Or give Hakeem the Heat core, how much better would they be defensively You basically shot yourself in the foot with that.

You're the one who cherry picked a single example as if that proved some type of point. I just returned the favor. So what Paul George is a better defender than John Starks was? Starks wasn't a slouch defensively and you would be hard pressed to name several wing defenders in today's game who are undoubtedly better. He actually made an all defensive team. Being tall and long doesn't automatically make a guy a good defensive player. I can list a gang of tall/long cats that suck defensively. Who are all these tall/long great wing defenders that are supposedly running around the league? Give me cats like Payton and Dumars over any of these perimeter defenders of today. Even when looking at current all defensive teams you see guys like Chris Paul, Tony Allen, Mike Conley, Rondo and Avery Bradley. Guys who aren't all that tall/long. at my argument falling apart with this bullshyt you're posting. My point remains. The Kni

You're talking pure opinion and nothing else, you have nothing to backup anything you're saying other than how you feel. Please show me your data on the ability to throw entry passes and how it's diminished in the last 20 years Of course you can't, but you'll point to one example and paint with a broad brush that all can't.

Of course I'm talking my opinion. This is a discussion regarding a difference of opinion. How the fukk am I supposed to get a stat that says that the ability of players to enter the ball into the post has decreased over the last 20 years? Unlike your simple ass my argument isn't based on stats that I've looked up. The inability to make simple entry passes and feed the post is an observation that I've made by actually watching the games. Do you disagree? Well show me your data that proves it. FOH

The game has become perimeter oriented because of the zone rules, why is this such a hard concept to understand? Al Jefferson's team is 3 games under .500 and what a coincidence, they are one of the worst 3 point shooting teams in the league. Your argument that players are less skilled centers around Dwight, lets turn a blind eye to guys like Steph Curry that get by on nothing but skill and the ability to shoot from anywhere on the floor, lets just focus on Dwight I've backed up my points with stats, so far all you've done is used your opinion and try to pass it as fact

I understand your opinion that the game has become more perimeter oriented because of zone rules I simply don't agree. This is what we call a difference of opinion. Why is that such a hard concept for you to understand? Ole "why don't you just believe what I'm telling you" ass dude.

Charlotte being 3 games under and one of the worst 3point shooting teams in the league isn't Jefferson's fault. The fact that they are only 3 games under and a team that would currently make the playoffs despite being one of the worst outside shooting teams in the league is largely thanks to Jefferson. His effectiveness in the post is proof that zone rules doesn't negate a team from playing inside out. The Heat's(2 time defending champs) consistent problems with decent big men prove that zone principles don't negate the effectiveness of quality centers who can play in the post.

My claim that the league is less skilled isnt just based on Dwight. Its based on the lack of quality inside play. Post or inside play is a huge part of the game and you can't just ignore that players don't have the skill to play effectively on the inside like they used to.You keep taking about how the zone has stifled inside post play but has been a 20-10 guy with a remedial offensive game while shooting around 50% from the line. If Dwight can get off with his limited game with the zone then it can't be that damn hard for post players. Imagine would a prime top notch 90s center would do to this league. It wouldn't be pretty. Your "uh uh teams shoot so many 3s because the zone forces them too" is straight garbage.

For the record, I'm not arguing that cats aren't skilled today. Sure cats like Stephen Curry are supremely skilled but that doesn't discount what I'm saying. You puffing your lil chest out posting smileys like you've proven your point when you really haven't said a damn thing. Your stats haven't proven anything. My point remains. Teams today aren't playing good defense, they just aren't that good offensively.

 

[Gravity]

The Heat aren't very good defensively this year, poor point, and every team has a weakness.


Yes, the Pacers are among the best defensive teams ever, for the last time, you cannot claim that defense is harder to play today then just ignore the fact that the Pacers are holding teams to all-time low in FG%. You want to paint it out as players being bad offensively, yet nothing you say backs up that idea.

The only thing that's poor are your comprehension. I clearly specified the Heat over the last 3-4 years not just this year. The Heat have been one of if not the best defensive team in the league since Lebron got there. Put them up against those teams with real centers from the 90s and they get exposed.

I'm not ignoring the Pacers defensive stats. I'm simply smart enough to understand that stats aren't the end all be all. The Pacers aren't one of the best defensive teams ever just because their stats match up with other all time great defensive teams. The league is different now than it was 20 years ago. A dumb motherfukker should be able to understand that. Get off that simple Simon shyt and start using some critical thinking skills. There's plenty of evidence that backs up my claim that a lot of teams are just bad offensively. Just look at the teams themselves. Look at all of the teams in the eastern conference and tell me which teams actually have good consistent offensive schemes. The Pacers aren't even that good offensively. Neither is Miami when you really look at 'em.

 

[Adam3000]

One example means nothing I know, but I just want to say that watching a Miami Heat defensive rotation on a pick and roll with 3 point shooters on the floor vs watching Syracuse zone defense is like reading The Art of War vs. Green Eggs and Ham.