Blackrogue
Superstar
I don't know If we'll ever see another shaq. that dude was a monster
NBA Rank top 10 Center's ever
- Thread starter Jplaya2023
- Start date
4 chips and 2 scoring titles and 0 1st team defense selections in 20 years is not breaking the fukking game breh. Duncan regularly matched or outplayed Shaq when they played and if he ever had a teammate near Kobe's level during that time Shaq might Ewing status right now. Sure his size was a deterrent but that doesn't mean he was a great defender. When he got tested, the other team usually benefited. People intertwine Shaq's potential, his actual production, his teammates, and the lack of talent in the league (especially at his position) to make it seem like he had this unassailable peak.
Goatpoacher
Superstar
First, I'm explicitly focusing on 1999 to 2003.
Second, he did BREAK the game in that period. The only thing that stopped him was ... Kobe
Third, now you say Duncan "matched" Shaq but he didn't have a good enough team around him. Earlier, you dismissed young Shaq versus other great centers without similarly accounting for overall team.
Fourth, I never said shaq was a great defender from 1999 to 2003. However, nobody challenged him in the paint. Nobody. In fact, the lakers defense was built around him because they played extremely tight perimeter defense to try to funnel players to Shaq.
He clearly did have an unassailable peak given that he was .. unassailed except for that time Ron Artest tackled him. You can't say he would not have done well against other great centers because he played other great centers and did fine. He also went up against Timmy several times and beat him and Timmy is as good as Kareem. Timmy even tried guarding him on a few occasions and failed. (Let's ignore the fact Shaq couldn't guard timmy either).
The truth is as follows: People lack sophistication and intellectual rigor so they need definite statements of absolute truth as opposed to viewing a question such as"who is the greatest center" as a path to explore different viewpoints and different methods of analysis. I am not making any definite statement about Shaq other than to say he obviously dominated the league from 1999 to 2003. What I saw was an incredible overall impact. How that measures against other players? Who the fukk really knows. It's stupid CACs that fixate on lists and rankings, we don't need to engage in such nonsense. :jjjjj:
ItWasWritten
Superstar
Shaq was good enough to beat MJ but not Hakeem? Gocha
How are you explicitly focusing on 99-03 and talking about the young Shaq too? Okay put Kobe on SA and give Shaq Jaren Jackson, Mario Elie and Derek "The Answer for Kobe" Anderson and see how that works out
Outside of his first couple years Shaq was always on stacked teams, that's why I listed all those dudes he played with...he's not eligible for the teammates pass. TP made his name challenging Shaq in the paint. Tim gave him that work when he guarded him. The Pistons were running a layup line in the Finals. A peak can't be unassailable, historically speaking, if others in history have done comparable or better things with comparable or inferior talent around them.nomoreneveragain
Superstar
The only thing that could stop Shaq was the FT line.
Fat Shaq on the SSOL Suns was dominating. Back to back games
You put Shaq in Today's NBA against the Warriors. He would eat em alive
Fat Shaq on the SSOL Suns was dominating. Back to back games
You put Shaq in Today's NBA against the Warriors. He would eat em alive
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Goatpoacher
Superstar
How are you explicitly focusing on 99-03 and talking about the young Shaq too? Okay put Kobe on SA and give Shaq Jaren Jackson, Mario Elie and Derek "The Answer for Kobe" Anderson and see how that works out
It's called logical induction. If young shaq handled himself with aplomb against historically great centers in their primes, it's logical to conclude prime shaq would have done the same. You seem to want to normalize "teammates" through similar means, so there is nothing wrong with me doing the same. But yes, I am focused on "prime" shaq from 1999 to 2003.
As for Tp challenging Shaq in the paint, when? 2003? Because I remember TP took a few shots and backed down in 2004.
Your statement about Tim Duncan is also unclear. Are you saying Timmy successfully guarded Shaq? I never saw that. They both seemed incapable of guarding each other. Which is fine since they are both all-time greats.
So let's test your hypothetical further. Who has shot near 60 percent while getting double teamed and constantly fouled, while still making excellent passes out of the post? The only player I can say had as much impact as Shaq from 1999 to 2003 was jordan from 1991 to 1998. Didn't Kareem and Wilt lose several finals despite being on stacked teams? Why aren't you knocking them down? Didn't Wilt finally win a title when he was asked to cut back on offense and focus on rebounding and defense? Didn't Kareem get blasted for being lazy on defense? Doesn't Russell have the weakest stats of any of the commonly noted top 5 centers?
Offensively yeah, he wasn't cut out to be a dominant number one option. Wasn't a skilled post player (for all the shyt Dwight gets, HE was better than D Rob in the low post) and relied too much on his jumper and athleticism to score which got him in trouble against great defenses in the PS.
That being said, the man was an absolute force defensively and is indisputably one of the greatest to ever play this game on that end of the court, imo a top 5 lock. Individual offense might not be on the level of his all time great peers, but he was still a high impact offensive anchor that provided value in a myriad of ways including as a playmaker where he was brilliant.
Like him more b/c he was on another planet entirely defensively and Moses wasn't actually a very skilled offensive player in his own right. Relentless on the glass and powerful in the paint, but he wasn't Hakeem or Duncan on the block or anything.
TrebleMan
Superstar
Like Nazr said in that article, if refs called the game the way it was supposed to be called, Shaq would've fouled everyone out by the 2nd quarter. There's an NBA player saying he himself was getting unfair calls against an opponent. Who has said anything like that before?
ItWasWritten
Superstar
Your an idiot
Thing is he lost those series with that aplomb and those teammates. I am saying Tim put up comparable or better numbers with less help whenever they played. All TP did was drive back then, he sure wasnt hitting any jumpers
.I never said any of them were perfect but Shaq had no excuse for failing to surpass them.
The thing that pisses me off about this list is if walton makes it then players at other positions that lost alot of there career to injury like grant hill penny and tmac should be on the list for other positions.
Goatpoacher
Superstar
Thing is he lost those series with that aplomb and those teammates. I am saying Tim put up comparable or better numbers with less help whenever they played. All TP did was drive back then, he sure wasnt hitting any jumpers
I never said any of them were perfect but Shaq had no excuse for failing to surpass them.
Surpass who? First, it was Timmy who killed the lakers in 2003 ... which might have been his greatest run. Not TP, he was too raw. In 2004, TP was killing the lakers games 1 and 2 with his driving, but got shut down after that.
Also, it's not just about numbers. It's about how those numbers came about. Shaq in the post was automatic. Timmy, as great as he is, never reached that level. Timmy was a better overall defender than Shaq. But Shaq's ability to ensure points was why he won 3 straight. There's a reason why Timmy never won even 2 straight... because he was always capable of being shut down overall.
Blackrogue
Superstar
did the three second rule come mostly cause of shaq? someone remind me of the timelines
