Should be fun. Jokic got what he wanted against Gobert and whoever the Clips threw at him. Previous success aside, is AD the guy that can finally slow him down? He certainly has a better chance at containing Joker than Joker has at containing him. Beyond that there is depth. Lakers can throw Javele, Dwight, even Morris or Kuz at Joker. If Joker is in foul trouble or getting cooked, who you putting on AD? Plumlee? Grant and Milsap will be occupied with Bron and they wouldn't be the answer anyway. And that's what this comes down too. AD and Bron have each other. No other team has a player as good as either. No team is equipped to deal with either and certainly not both.
Nikola Jokic vs Anthony Davis
- Thread starter O.iatlhawksfan
- Start date
Smoking With Cigarettes
Superstar
I think Malone will deploy Craig and Grant on Bron. Millsap has the strength to not get totally bullied by Bron down low but Indon't think he has the lateral quickness anymore to check Bron. With that said Millsap could very well see a lot of time on AD just to avoid Jokic being in the PnR with Bron all game. Bron and AD are perfect matches for each other
I dunno about Kuz and Morris checking Jokic though. You wanna keep length on him so he can't do any fukky plays
O.iatlhawksfan
Devoted Joel Embiid hater
From the many battles Lebron had with the Hawks, I can tell you Millsap can’t guard Lebron at all
Long Live The Kane
Tyrant Titan
You acknowledge on the surface that Jokic's runs the show, but you then use Murray and the "severely underrated" role players rising to the occasion, as if they would've performed the same had AD been on the team instead. AD has never shown the ability of running actions from anywhere on the floor; AD has never shown the ability to create plays out of nothing; AD has never shown the ability to operate as the main ball-handler; AD has never shown the ability to manipulate defenses with his play; AD has never shown the ability to keep players constantly engaged and empowered them.
LeBron is legitimately the only one in the league who compares. And nobody would ever entertain the possibility that AD could elevate the play of those around him like he could.
Denver's eFG% with Jokic on the floor - 57%
Denver's eFG% without Jokic on the floor - 44% (which would dead-last out of all playoff teams)
Denver has the lowest contest-shot rate directly off Jokic's passes (open shots he generates) - 12% lower Doncic, and 17% lower than LeBron
Denver has the highest FG% in the paint with Jokic on the floor.
His passing literally creates more open looks than anyone else in the entire league.
He literally transforms what would be one of the worst offensive support casts into being one of the best-performing ones. There's nothing "severely underrated" about the likes of Milsap, Grant, Harris, Morris and Craig, who while bring their own offensive strings to the team's bow, would otherwise be condemned if it wasn't for Jokic setting the table for them. All of Murray's 40/50-point games, and the support cast making timely shots, have Jokic's fingerprints all over them. Murray and the role players can almost exclusively focus on scoring, and not have to worry about facilitating for one another, making sure they all get regular and equal touches, on top of generating open looks for one another. Their chemistry exists because Jokic is the nucleus. That same magic isn't happening with AD in place of him.
It's not too dissimilar to the offensive success the Warriors have had with Steph, with the way he generates open looks for his team (with the gravity he has by teleporting all over the floor) and the selflessness he has by sharing the ball. You can't just drop Dame into that system and expect the same magic to happen. Dame and AD are buckets, but they don't play in a manner that elevates those around them. They'll get their points, but it can be in the run of sacrificing the betterment of the team.
This can not be emphasized more.
Here we have a 2x DPOY and arguably the best interior defender in the league, whose defensive presence and impact was all but a droplet of water on the fire of Murray all throughout that series.
Denver shot 11% greater in PnR, 8% greater from 15ft+ and 14% greater from behind the arc against Gobert in that series. And he only held them to -3% less inside the paint. Now, granted these percentages aren't entirely on Gobert, as they're nuances to how these plays resulted, and who was at fault.
Which brings me to the point of: individual defense being of less importance than team defense.
Irrespective of my belief that Gobert's defense is overrated, he still is a high-graded defender, who even with his abilities and being the defensive anchor, is at the mercy of those around him. If the players around him aren't rotating, communicating, and giving effort, then his contributions on the defensive end are washed out to sea.
Contrary to popular belief, despite Jokic's foibles on that end, he's still an above-average defender: he has great hands (leads all big men in deflections), great in the post, great at disrupting passing lanes, and has high BBIQ of knowing where to be to at least be a deterrence or stopping a play before it unfolds.
Funnily enough, the Nuggets have had one of the better defenses over the last few seasons with Jokic on the floor (non-garbage time). And it's largely down to the fact that all their heavy-play lineups, all have strengths that are pieces to a puzzle, where if 1-2 are missing, as Harris and Barton did in the opening series, it puts a greater strain on everyone else and exposes their flaws. It's no coincidence that the return of Harris has mitigated some of these issues, and consequently led to Jokic being a plus-defender in the Clippers series. Now I think it goes without saying that Denver's defense would be greater, in general, with AD, but whatever lining he'd provide on that end would hit a limit, and wouldn't be nearly enough to make up for the debt they'd end up having on offense, without Jokic.
I don't doubt that AD is capable of limiting/nullifying their two-man game - he's been the best defensive performer this season. I just don't think that's really going to speak on who's the better player. I mean, after all, AD has the luxury of having Bron standing right next to him.
Which is what I think this series will come down to; the matching of basketball wits between Jokic and LeBron. AD v. Jokic will be nothing more than a subplot.
Yeah, Jokic is no where near the transformative offensive force that Steph is...nowhere near the type of offball disrupter that wrecked defenses like the dubbs ...on-off splits that tell me how much better they are when Jokic is playing instead of their bench aren’t compelling to me...it’s novel to have a center be the offensive engine in the way that he is, but it’s not something that’s turning the nuggets into some kinda all time great offense ...not to the extent that it makes up for the way he’s able to be exploited on defense...in the regular season it’s something you can live with because bigs aren’t game planned against like they are in the playoffs...but in the post season it KILLS you (so far this postseason Denver actually has a NEGATIVE net rating...every series they’ve had these past two years have been 7 game struggles because they don’t have a legit contending level defense) ...so in general terms, yeah I agree individual defense isn’t as important as team defense....with the exception of centers that anchor your defense...if you have a big that is a defensive sieve, that can’t effectively switch and provides no rim protection, your defense is gonna be fatally flawed...
like look At Donovan’s 57 point game...damn near EVERY bucket is off the strength of involving Jokic in pick and roll action or flat out attacking his lack of rim protection...watch Jokic on EVERY possession in this clip
Like I said in my first post, they were a coin flip away from being bounced out the first round...we agree gorbert (despite being a far better rim protector) has similar limitations to Jokic in a playoff setting...and attributing Murray’s series saving explosions to Jokics table setting is a disservice to what was mainly some insane off the dribble shot making from the guy who leads the team in scoring with damn near 70% of his shots being non assisted in the postseason... props to the nuggets for scraping out that win in Game 7 (in which Jokic was golden) and escaping the first round by the slimmest of margins...and I tip my hat for them beating the clippers...they’ve had some luck with matchups, had they drawn the rockets shyt would’ve got ugly...but they’ve made it to the conference finals, can’t take that away from...just think the lakers are gonna put the beats on them, and AD is gonna have just as much to do with it as Bron will ...AD ain’t gorbert or Montrezl, and we’ll see what kind of impact an elite complete two way big has on this offensive wizardry we’re assigning to Joker
in a vacuum I think they’re on similar tiers...but IMO, AD’s the more complete player and ultimately the better championship piece...there are more complimentary players to be had that fit around AD and cover his holes than is the case for Jokic...any number of star shot creating, play making guards and wings matched up with AD is a problem...with Jokic, how many players are out there that solve him killing any squad he’s on in the playoffs defensively? Offensively it’s great to say “omg how cute is it that our center runs our offense”...but on defense he has the same issues other oafish bigs have in today’s league
In fairness, he was getting funky on Gobert and Zubac so I'm not sure length is the answer either. That's really a matter of what lineup they have out there and the foul situation with AD.
Torrential
LWO
AD better . Period . I’ll be keeping receipts 
Alright, this Jokic slurpfest getting out of hand now. A bunch of prisoner of the moment posters.
Dolla$
Minus the bullsh*t...life's great
You need to be a writer for ESPN or SIYou acknowledge on the surface that Jokic's runs the show, but you then use Murray and the "severely underrated" role players rising to the occasion, as if they would've performed the same had AD been on the team instead. AD has never shown the ability of running actions from anywhere on the floor; AD has never shown the ability to create plays out of nothing; AD has never shown the ability to operate as the main ball-handler; AD has never shown the ability to manipulate defenses with his play; AD has never shown the ability to keep players constantly engaged and empowered them.
LeBron is legitimately the only one in the league who compares. And nobody would ever entertain the possibility that AD could elevate the play of those around him like he could.
Denver's eFG% with Jokic on the floor - 57%
Denver's eFG% without Jokic on the floor - 44% (which would dead-last out of all playoff teams)
Denver has the lowest contest-shot rate directly off Jokic's passes (open shots he generates) - 12% lower Doncic, and 17% lower than LeBron
Denver has the highest FG% in the paint with Jokic on the floor.
His passing literally creates more open looks than anyone else in the entire league.
He literally transforms what would be one of the worst offensive support casts into being one of the best-performing ones. There's nothing "severely underrated" about the likes of Milsap, Grant, Harris, Morris and Craig, who while bring their own offensive strings to the team's bow, would otherwise be condemned if it wasn't for Jokic setting the table for them. All of Murray's 40/50-point games, and the support cast making timely shots, have Jokic's fingerprints all over them. Murray and the role players can almost exclusively focus on scoring, and not have to worry about facilitating for one another, making sure they all get regular and equal touches, on top of generating open looks for one another. Their chemistry exists because Jokic is the nucleus. That same magic isn't happening with AD in place of him.
It's not too dissimilar to the offensive success the Warriors have had with Steph, with the way he generates open looks for his team (with the gravity he has by teleporting all over the floor) and the selflessness he has by sharing the ball. You can't just drop Dame into that system and expect the same magic to happen. Dame and AD are buckets, but they don't play in a manner that elevates those around them. They'll get their points, but it can be in the run of sacrificing the betterment of the team.
This can not be emphasized more.
Here we have a 2x DPOY and arguably the best interior defender in the league, whose defensive presence and impact was all but a droplet of water on the fire of Murray all throughout that series.
Denver shot 11% greater in PnR, 8% greater from 15ft+ and 14% greater from behind the arc against Gobert in that series. And he only held them to -3% less inside the paint. Now, granted these percentages aren't entirely on Gobert, as they're nuances to how these plays resulted, and who was at fault.
Which brings me to the point of: individual defense being of less importance than team defense.
Irrespective of my belief that Gobert's defense is overrated, he still is a high-graded defender, who even with his abilities and being the defensive anchor, is at the mercy of those around him. If the players around him aren't rotating, communicating, and giving effort, then his contributions on the defensive end are washed out to sea.
Contrary to popular belief, despite Jokic's foibles on that end, he's still an above-average defender: he has great hands (leads all big men in deflections), great in the post, great at disrupting passing lanes, and has high BBIQ of knowing where to be to at least be a deterrence or stopping a play before it unfolds.
Funnily enough, the Nuggets have had one of the better defenses over the last few seasons with Jokic on the floor (non-garbage time). And it's largely down to the fact that all their heavy-play lineups, all have strengths that are pieces to a puzzle, where if 1-2 are missing, as Harris and Barton did in the opening series, it puts a greater strain on everyone else and exposes their flaws. It's no coincidence that the return of Harris has mitigated some of these issues, and consequently led to Jokic being a plus-defender in the Clippers series. Now I think it goes without saying that Denver's defense would be greater, in general, with AD, but whatever lining he'd provide on that end would hit a limit, and wouldn't be nearly enough to make up for the debt they'd end up having on offense, without Jokic.
I don't doubt that AD is capable of limiting/nullifying their two-man game - he's been the best defensive performer this season. I just don't think that's really going to speak on who's the better player. I mean, after all, AD has the luxury of having Bron standing right next to him.
Which is what I think this series will come down to; the matching of basketball wits between Jokic and LeBron. AD v. Jokic will be nothing more than a subplot.
Prisoners of the moment?
This tells me you haven't even bothered to pay attention to Jokic's play over the last few seasons.
And look, the Nuggets aren't even supposed to be here right now.
They had arguably TWO of their top-5 players out in the first round, a coach who's holding them back, and a bunch of role players who straddle the line of inconsistency and being non-factors. There's nothing inherently great about this team; they're running on fumes, belief and Jokic/Murray dragging their asses. They're coming up against the best duo in basketball (one of whom is in many folks' minds the greatest to ever play), and one of the deepest, experienced support casts in the league.
This series is where the Nuggets' story ends, but Jokic should be eulogized at the end of it, not laid bare for all to see and crucified.
Prisoners of the moment?
This tells me you haven't even bothered to pay attention to Jokic's play over the last few seasons.
And look, the Nuggets aren't even supposed to be here right now.
They had arguably TWO of their top-5 players out in the first round, a coach who's holding them back, and a bunch of role players who straddle the line of inconsistency and being non-factors. There's nothing inherently great about this team; they're running on fumes, belief and Jokic/Murray dragging their asses. They're coming up against the best duo in basketball (one of whom is in many folks' minds the greatest to ever play), and one of the deepest, experienced support casts in the league.
This series is where the Nuggets' story ends, but Jokic should be eulogized at the end of it, not laid bare for all to see and crucified.
Jokic is not better than Anthony Davis.
Secondly, you have some of the worst basketball takes on this site, I'm not going back & forth with you.
O.iatlhawksfan
Devoted Joel Embiid hater
Why y’all calling the praise of Jokic as prisoners of the moment when y’all praising AD and he’s never done shyt before coming to the Lakers
Who is better is a complex question, where the consensus of this board is likely to fall and hit every agenda-driven and smart dumb branch on the way to the ground.
And yes, I'm including you in that.
To the thread in general, all I know is those who have AD over Jokic better not have sung a different tune in the KG-Dirk argument. This literally the same thing: elite two-way 7-footer with range but doesn't live in the post the way he "should" and thus appears "soft/non-clutch" vs perimeter oriented 7-footer who leaves a defensive hole.
KD Warriors? None. I think this team can give 15 a run for their money but they probably don't beat them.
LeBron and Kawhi are both two-way players though and Bron's playmaking separates them as an X-factor. AD and Jokic are different planets defensively, while Jokic is unique his passing doesn't erase being a defensive liability.
this thread is pinned up anger 
thecoli is mad at Jokic supporters because he won the Jokic vs. Melo debate
thecoli is mad at Jokic supporters because he won the Jokic vs. Melo debate
