TheWhackMamba
The Coli's Drop Bear
No Duncan?
Now that Kobe's legendary career is over, where does he rank on your all time list?
- Thread starter Houston911
- Start date
No Duncan?
And he has Wilt #3 but Russell nowhere on the board? Does he really think that Wilt was that much better than Russell? They played each other on occasion, ya know.
My list is actually pretty similar to his, except insert Russell and Duncan and then bump Oscar/Kobe down to 11/12 status.
Yea...I think so. You're just thinking offense. I'm thinking total impact: Lebron impacts a team on offense and defense more than any non-center in the game today and the most since Jordan. See the thing about the NBA is that, 95% of the NBA champions had at least an all star caliber big-man. Because height and skill are so hard to come by, the recipe to win was a big man with offensive and/or defensive talent being the centerpiece of most NBA champions:
60's Celtics had Bill Russell,
70's lakers had Wilt Chamberlain,
80's Lakers had Abdul-Jabbar,
Bill Walton with the Trailblazers in 77,
Wes Unseld and the Bullets in '78,
Bucks in 71 with Alcindor
Wills Reed and the Knicks in '70 & '73.
Moses Malone and the 76ers in '83.
Spurs with Tim Duncan
Rockets with Olajuwon
Pistons in '04 Don't win without Ben Wallace being dominant defensively in the paint.
As great as Larry Bird was, he had a Hall of Fame Center in Kevin McHale.
As great as Kobe was, he had Shaq (HOF) and Pau Gasol (who, if you look at his stats, should go into the Hall of Fame himself).
Yes there are exception to the rule: The '75 Warriors with Rick Barry, The 78 supersonics with Dennis Johnson, 89-90 Pistons (we can argue Laimbeer if you want).
But that's what they are, exceptions. There just aren't many players like Lebron, like Jordan, who can win titles and consistently go to NBA finals without a Big man who was dominant in the paint either on the offensive or defensive end, (keep it real Chris Bosh is not that kind of dude). Jordan needed Pippen, but he wasn't a big man. Lebron needed Wade & Bosh (not dominant big men). Might as well add Steph curry to the list as well.
Final point: Lebron has better career averages than Kobe all around. Not only that, but Lebron has more total rebounds and total assists than Kobe despite playing in 359 fewer games. The choice is clear brehs.
This is an excellent analysis.
Is Duncan clearly ahead of Kobe though?
Considering he hasn't played anywhere close to 34 minutes a game in nearly 10 years? I mean if we are talking about legendary players and where they stand in terms of all time greats...shouldn't the criteria be dominance or close to it?
Please don't jump on me coli heads....I'm just opening up the debate...is Duncan heads and shoulders above Kobe? in terms of all time great placement?
Exactly!! and unfortunately, there isn't a "Scary-ass bytch" stat on Reference.com
Granted, Lebron does have the stats "edge" but with certain situations you have to take a step back and just use the eye test....which doesn't show up on the stat sheet.
Example, if Kobe wasn't at the Olympics that year and LeBron was the dude leading that team, there's a chance that Spain wins the Gold...Kobe showed up with ice-water in his veins, things like that don't often show up in the stat sheet.
Duncan was 3rd-team All-NBA last year at the age of 38 and 1st-team All-NBA two years earlier at the age of 36. Who cares that he did it in only 30 minutes/game during the regular season? He put in up to 36 min/game in the postseason during that era, and was still the best player on a championship team and the focal point of both their offense and defense. Would it be better if he were Kobe, playing 35 regular season minutes/game but getting hurt every season since he was 34 and only winning 1 second-round game since he was 31?
Duncan has 15 All-NBA selections, including 9 1st-team selections is an era loaded with great forwards (Lebron, Garnett, Dirk, Malone, McGrady, Durant). And he didn't even start until 22 because he was busy getting named to 3 straight All-American teams - don't claim he couldn't have made another couple All-NBA teams at the age of 20-21. To criticize him based on a supposed lack of longevity is ridiculous.
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These are all fair points, but it's also fair to point out that Duncan hasn't dominated, in the truest sense of the word, in quite a while...I'm not saying he's not effective.
Injuries are a part of the game, should have Kobe dialed it down and adapted to the rigors of age? Certainly....but if you scale it down and don't lift as much weight so to speak, then that should take away the argument that you dominated. Duncan has been more effective than Kobe as of late, but that's more due to age, mileage, and the style of game Duncan plays.
I'm talking about sheer dominance, I think you can make the argument that Duncan is above Kobe in terms of all time greats, but you can also make the argument in Kobe's favor as well. It isn't as clear cut as you think, especially since Kobe was straight up killing San Antonio in his and Duncan's prime.
If Lebron isn't "as good" as Kobe was in his 30s, you think that it'll be excused with, "Well, that's just due to age, mileage, and the style game Lebron plays"???
The fact that Duncan could adjust his offensive and defensive game to continue to be a championship contender well into his late 30s is one of the very reasons why his career comes out as better than Bryant's.
Duncan was on MVP ballots as recently as last year and was #7 in MVP voting just 3 years ago. That, coincidentally, was the last time Kobe showed up on an MVP ballot at all (he was #5). I'd say that MVP votes are as objective a measure of "dominance" as you can get...and they both fell off the upper rung of that ballot at the same time. But Duncan still made an all-NBA team TWO years after Kobe's last one, and Duncan was making All-NBA 1st Team FOUR years before Kobe ever did. So I'm just not seeing how you can make up longevity as a knock against him.
And if we go by team success instead of individual accolades...Kobe has won ONE 2nd-round playoff game since 2010 when he was 31. In 2012 at age 35, Duncan was the best player on a team that swept the first two rounds and took OKC to 6 in a close WCF. Then in 2013 he was the best player on a team that was 1 play from winning the championship, and would have been the clear Finals MVP if SAS got one more rebound. And in 2014 he was still the best player on the Spurs when they won the championship.
If you're really "dominant", that needs to translate into something beyond 1st-round playoff wins. Duncan out there winning rings as the team leader even in his late 30s. Kobe had solid talent and great coaching around him 2011-2013, and wasn't doing crap.
Oh, this myth again.
Kobe's playoff averages against Duncan were 28-6-5 with a steal a game.
Duncan's playoff averages against Kobe were 25-14-4 with a steal and 2 blocks a game.
Kobe was never "straight up killing San Antonio". Duncan and Shaq were ALWAYS the focus on the offense and defense for both teams. You think Pop went into games scheming about how to stop Kobe, or about how to stop Shaq? Kobe took a ton of shots against the Spurs (averaged 24 shots/game) because he was the one Pop wanted taking shots over Shaq. Meanwhile, Duncan didn't have a Shaq to keep the pressure off of him - most of those years the Spurs only had 1 all-star on the team besides Duncan...must less the best player in the league.
Duncan won four championships right through the middle of Kobe's prime: 1999, 2003, 2005, and 2007. Kobe was age 20-28 during that run. If he was such a Spurs-killer, then he should have been able to stop them a few more times...but he didn't win his 1st championship as the main guy until Duncan was 32 years old.
Edit: Here's a bit of data about Duncan's championships that most people don't realize.
1999: Duncan was the only all-NBA on the Spurs that year. (No all-star game.)
2003: Duncan was the only all-star on the Spurs that year.
2005: Duncan and Ginobli were the only all-stars on the Spurs that year. Only Duncan All-NBA.
2007: Duncan and Parker were the only all-stars on the Spurs that year. Only Duncan All-NBA.
2014: Duncan and Parker were the only all-stars on the Spurs that year.
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Godless Socialist CEO
Superstar
Top 12, Tim Duncan had a better career imo. Second best shooting guard of all time. He will be missed.
If Lebron isn't "as good" as Kobe was in his 30s, you think that it'll be excused with, "Well, that's just due to age, mileage, and the style game Lebron plays"???
The fact that Duncan could adjust his offensive and defensive game to continue to be a championship contender well into his late 30s is one of the very reasons why his career comes out as better than Bryant's.
Duncan was on MVP ballots as recently as last year and was #7 in MVP voting just 3 years ago. That, coincidentally, was the last time Kobe showed up on an MVP ballot at all (he was #5). I'd say that MVP votes are as objective a measure of "dominance" as you can get...and they both fell off the upper rung of that ballot at the same time. But Duncan still made an all-NBA team TWO years after Kobe's last one, and Duncan was making All-NBA 1st Team FOUR years before Kobe ever did. So I'm just not seeing how you can make up longevity as a knock against him.
And if we go by team success instead of individual accolades...Kobe has won ONE 2nd-round playoff game since 2010 when he was 31. In 2012 at age 35, Duncan was the best player on a team that swept the first two rounds and took OKC to 6 in a close WCF. Then in 2013 he was the best player on a team that was 1 play from winning the championship, and would have been the clear Finals MVP if SAS got one more rebound. And in 2014 he was still the best player on the Spurs when they won the championship (and the only all-star on the team that year).
If you're really "dominant", that needs to translate into something beyond 1st-round playoff wins. Duncan out there winning rings as the only all-star even in his late 30s. Kobe had solid talent and great coaching around him 2011-2013, and wasn't doing crap.
Oh, this myth again.
Kobe's playoff averages against Duncan were 28-6-5 with a steal a game.
Duncan's playoff averages against Kobe were 25-14-4 with a steal and 2 blocks a game.
Kobe was never "straight up killing San Antonio". Duncan and Shaq were ALWAYS the focus on the offense and defense for both teams. You think Pop went into games scheming about how to stop Kobe, or about how to stop Shaq? Kobe took a ton of shots against the Spurs (averaged 24 shots/game) because he was the one Pop wanted taking shots over Shaq. Meanwhile, Duncan didn't have a Shaq to keep the pressure off of him - most of those years the Spurs only had 1 all-star on the team besides Duncan...must less the best player in the league.
Duncan won four championships right through the middle of Kobe's prime: 1999, 2003, 2005, and 2007. Kobe was age 20-28 during that run. If he was such a Spurs-killer, then he should have been able to stop them a few more times...but he didn't win his 1st championship as the main guy until Duncan was 32 years old.
Like I said, the argument can be made in either of their favors...it's not a runaway argument in Duncan's favor. Kobe repeated without Shaq, Duncan has never repeated before. Had the shoe been on the other foot, you would have argued that Duncan deserves praise for actually defending his title, something he hasn't done.
Also, in the 2002 NBA playoffs it was Kobe who was straight up killing the Spurs, particularly in the 4th qtr in the final 5 minutes of the game when Shaq would be switched in and out due to his poor free throw shooting. Matter of fact in the close out game of that series Kobe scored 10 points down the stretch in the 4th to put the Spurs away.
Yes, obviously Kobe benefitted off Shaq, but to suggest he wouldn't break down defenses in the playoffs without Shaq, when he has already proven the ability to do so, is disingenuous.
These graphs show me that you can make an argument in either of their favors:
If Lebron isn't "as good" as Kobe was in his 30s, you think that it'll be excused with, "Well, that's just due to age, mileage, and the style game Lebron plays"???
The fact that Duncan could adjust his offensive and defensive game to continue to be a championship contender well into his late 30s is one of the very reasons why his career comes out as better than Bryant's.
Duncan was on MVP ballots as recently as last year and was #7 in MVP voting just 3 years ago. That, coincidentally, was the last time Kobe showed up on an MVP ballot at all (he was #5). I'd say that MVP votes are as objective a measure of "dominance" as you can get...and they both fell off the upper rung of that ballot at the same time. But Duncan still made an all-NBA team TWO years after Kobe's last one, and Duncan was making All-NBA 1st Team FOUR years before Kobe ever did. So I'm just not seeing how you can make up longevity as a knock against him.
And if we go by team success instead of individual accolades...Kobe has won ONE 2nd-round playoff game since 2010 when he was 31. In 2012 at age 35, Duncan was the best player on a team that swept the first two rounds and took OKC to 6 in a close WCF. Then in 2013 he was the best player on a team that was 1 play from winning the championship, and would have been the clear Finals MVP if SAS got one more rebound. And in 2014 he was still the best player on the Spurs when they won the championship.
If you're really "dominant", that needs to translate into something beyond 1st-round playoff wins. Duncan out there winning rings as the team leader even in his late 30s. Kobe had solid talent and great coaching around him 2011-2013, and wasn't doing crap.
Oh, this myth again.
Kobe's playoff averages against Duncan were 28-6-5 with a steal a game.
Duncan's playoff averages against Kobe were 25-14-4 with a steal and 2 blocks a game.
Kobe was never "straight up killing San Antonio". Duncan and Shaq were ALWAYS the focus on the offense and defense for both teams. You think Pop went into games scheming about how to stop Kobe, or about how to stop Shaq? Kobe took a ton of shots against the Spurs (averaged 24 shots/game) because he was the one Pop wanted taking shots over Shaq. Meanwhile, Duncan didn't have a Shaq to keep the pressure off of him - most of those years the Spurs only had 1 all-star on the team besides Duncan...must less the best player in the league.
Duncan won four championships right through the middle of Kobe's prime: 1999, 2003, 2005, and 2007. Kobe was age 20-28 during that run. If he was such a Spurs-killer, then he should have been able to stop them a few more times...but he didn't win his 1st championship as the main guy until Duncan was 32 years old.
Edit: Here's a bit of data about Duncan's championships that most people don't realize.
1999: Duncan was the only all-star on the Spurs that year.
2003: Duncan was the only all-star on the Spurs that year.
2005: Duncan and Ginobli were the only all-stars on the Spurs that year. Only Duncan All-NBA.
2007: Duncan and Parker were the only all-stars on the Spurs that year. Only Duncan All-NBA.
2014: Duncan and Parker were the only all-stars on the Spurs that year.
Aside from Kobe, Name all the Lakers players who made the All-Star team during Kobe's repeat?
The repeat where he made it to the Finals three years in a row.
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Trece
Superstar
Sorry breh but you come off as a stan. Brons career isnt over yet so put away that cape until it is all said and done.. Difference is Wade led a team to a chip in 2006, those two MVP seasons for Bron, he bowed out early including his drama moment with Delonte West where he didnt shoot the ball and went home early to get a jump start on joining the heat.....
and how will you ever explain 2011 Finals meltdown.
If you put Bron up so high then you might as well consider Manning and Arod the best in their sports ever too.
I am telling this to Bron stans:
If you ride with Bron then open up the trunk for Peyton Manning and Alex Rodriguez cause they are the same players.
If Lebron isn't "as good" as Kobe was in his 30s, you think that it'll be excused with, "Well, that's just due to age, mileage, and the style game Lebron plays"???
The fact that Duncan could adjust his offensive and defensive game to continue to be a championship contender well into his late 30s is one of the very reasons why his career comes out as better than Bryant's.
Duncan was on MVP ballots as recently as last year and was #7 in MVP voting just 3 years ago. That, coincidentally, was the last time Kobe showed up on an MVP ballot at all (he was #5). I'd say that MVP votes are as objective a measure of "dominance" as you can get...and they both fell off the upper rung of that ballot at the same time. But Duncan still made an all-NBA team TWO years after Kobe's last one, and Duncan was making All-NBA 1st Team FOUR years before Kobe ever did. So I'm just not seeing how you can make up longevity as a knock against him.
And if we go by team success instead of individual accolades...Kobe has won ONE 2nd-round playoff game since 2010 when he was 31. In 2012 at age 35, Duncan was the best player on a team that swept the first two rounds and took OKC to 6 in a close WCF. Then in 2013 he was the best player on a team that was 1 play from winning the championship, and would have been the clear Finals MVP if SAS got one more rebound. And in 2014 he was still the best player on the Spurs when they won the championship.
If you're really "dominant", that needs to translate into something beyond 1st-round playoff wins. Duncan out there winning rings as the team leader even in his late 30s. Kobe had solid talent and great coaching around him 2011-2013, and wasn't doing crap.
Oh, this myth again.
Kobe's playoff averages against Duncan were 28-6-5 with a steal a game.
Duncan's playoff averages against Kobe were 25-14-4 with a steal and 2 blocks a game.
Kobe was never "straight up killing San Antonio". Duncan and Shaq were ALWAYS the focus on the offense and defense for both teams. You think Pop went into games scheming about how to stop Kobe, or about how to stop Shaq? Kobe took a ton of shots against the Spurs (averaged 24 shots/game) because he was the one Pop wanted taking shots over Shaq. Meanwhile, Duncan didn't have a Shaq to keep the pressure off of him - most of those years the Spurs only had 1 all-star on the team besides Duncan...must less the best player in the league.
Duncan won four championships right through the middle of Kobe's prime: 1999, 2003, 2005, and 2007. Kobe was age 20-28 during that run. If he was such a Spurs-killer, then he should have been able to stop them a few more times...but he didn't win his 1st championship as the main guy until Duncan was 32 years old.
Edit: Here's a bit of data about Duncan's championships that most people don't realize.
1999: Duncan was the only all-NBA on the Spurs that year. (No all-star game.)
2003: Duncan was the only all-star on the Spurs that year.
2005: Duncan and Ginobli were the only all-stars on the Spurs that year. Only Duncan All-NBA.
2007: Duncan and Parker were the only all-stars on the Spurs that year. Only Duncan All-NBA.
2014: Duncan and Parker were the only all-stars on the Spurs that year.
Click to expand...
Duncan isn't without his flaws, unless you're going to say he's had the perfect career?The fact that Duncan could adjust his offensive and defensive game to continue to be a championship contender well into his late 30s is one of the very reasons why his career comes out as better than Bryant's.
Duncan was on MVP ballots as recently as last year and was #7 in MVP voting just 3 years ago. That, coincidentally, was the last time Kobe showed up on an MVP ballot at all (he was #5). I'd say that MVP votes are as objective a measure of "dominance" as you can get...and they both fell off the upper rung of that ballot at the same time. But Duncan still made an all-NBA team TWO years after Kobe's last one, and Duncan was making All-NBA 1st Team FOUR years before Kobe ever did. So I'm just not seeing how you can make up longevity as a knock against him.
And if we go by team success instead of individual accolades...Kobe has won ONE 2nd-round playoff game since 2010 when he was 31. In 2012 at age 35, Duncan was the best player on a team that swept the first two rounds and took OKC to 6 in a close WCF. Then in 2013 he was the best player on a team that was 1 play from winning the championship, and would have been the clear Finals MVP if SAS got one more rebound. And in 2014 he was still the best player on the Spurs when they won the championship.
If you're really "dominant", that needs to translate into something beyond 1st-round playoff wins. Duncan out there winning rings as the team leader even in his late 30s. Kobe had solid talent and great coaching around him 2011-2013, and wasn't doing crap.
Oh, this myth again.
Kobe's playoff averages against Duncan were 28-6-5 with a steal a game.
Duncan's playoff averages against Kobe were 25-14-4 with a steal and 2 blocks a game.
Kobe was never "straight up killing San Antonio". Duncan and Shaq were ALWAYS the focus on the offense and defense for both teams. You think Pop went into games scheming about how to stop Kobe, or about how to stop Shaq? Kobe took a ton of shots against the Spurs (averaged 24 shots/game) because he was the one Pop wanted taking shots over Shaq. Meanwhile, Duncan didn't have a Shaq to keep the pressure off of him - most of those years the Spurs only had 1 all-star on the team besides Duncan...must less the best player in the league.
Duncan won four championships right through the middle of Kobe's prime: 1999, 2003, 2005, and 2007. Kobe was age 20-28 during that run. If he was such a Spurs-killer, then he should have been able to stop them a few more times...but he didn't win his 1st championship as the main guy until Duncan was 32 years old.
Edit: Here's a bit of data about Duncan's championships that most people don't realize.
1999: Duncan was the only all-NBA on the Spurs that year. (No all-star game.)
2003: Duncan was the only all-star on the Spurs that year.
2005: Duncan and Ginobli were the only all-stars on the Spurs that year. Only Duncan All-NBA.
2007: Duncan and Parker were the only all-stars on the Spurs that year. Only Duncan All-NBA.
2014: Duncan and Parker were the only all-stars on the Spurs that year.
Click to expand...
2004 USA team led by Duncan
(Bronze medal)
2006 Spurs led by Duncan
(Lost to Mavs with his tail between his legs after trying to duck the task of guarding Dirk the whole series)
2007 Tony Parker lead the Spurs to a title while
Gooden shot 50% against Duncan and Varejao shot 67% against Duncan
2008 Spurs led by Duncan
(Gave up 20pt lead in Game 1 WCF and watched LA win 4-1)
2009 Spurs led by Duncan
(Duncan tried to duck the task of guarding Dirk again the whole series and his Spur team got bounced in the first round of the playoffs)
2010 Spurs led by Duncan
(Duncan led this Spur team to an embarrassing exit against the lowly Phoenix Suns. Jimmy D was exposed on the defensive side of the ball against Nash and co. over and over and over until it was 4-0 in the Suns favor.)
2011 Spurs led by Duncan
(Duncan led this team to history in the worst way. After several embarrassing defeats in the playoffs in the years prior, Duncan and his buds were poised to be regular season champs. Boy did that work out wrong. Duncan ended up leading them to history in all the wrong ways.
--2011 Spurs were destined to become the first team to ever go 44-8 through their first 52 games and NOT win the championship.
Their season ended by losing to the 8th seed in the first round of the playoffs - only the 4th time in NBA history somebody has choked that bad.